Your personal kanji learning tips

[Ke11iente]

I'm doing rote memorization.
I'm playing the silly games.
I've got flash cards out the wazoo....


But I'm still having trouble remembering all the kanji I'm trying to stick in my brain. Any personal tips/hints for learning/remembering kanji? What do you do to make them stick?

I can usually look at one and remember the meaning (in English), but the (various) readings and how to write the kanji are what I'm having trouble remembering... and that's the important part.:confused:

[kamome]

I'm doing rote memorization.
I'm playing the silly games.
I've got flash cards out the wazoo....


But I'm still having trouble remembering all the kanji I'm trying to stick in my brain. Any personal tips/hints for learning/remembering kanji? What do you do to make them stick?

I can usually look at one and remember the meaning (in English), but the (various) readings and how to write the kanji are what I'm having trouble remembering... and that's the important part.:confused:

Best way to retain kanji comprehension is to read J-language newspapers and other material - even manga is good. There are manga for children that have the furigana printed on the kanji so you don't have to look it up.

I can't help you with remembering how to write the kanji. That was always my weakest area and I would just memorize as much as I could before exams then experience a memory dump afterward.

[Ptyx]

Seconding reading newspaper and manga. Seeing a word in context is the best way to remember it.
For the writting part i unfortunately don't think that there is anything else other than brute copying, doing lines over and over again.
The thing is nowadays knowing how to write is not as important as it used to be so it"s kinda hard to put up with it. Thanks computers.

[Charles]

Best way to retain kanji comprehension is to read J-language newspapers and other material - even manga is good. There are manga for children that have the furigana printed on the kanji so you don't have to look it up.
I think manga are awful as language learning tools, particularly the ones written for children even if they have furigana. Do you want to learn how to speak like a child, or an adult? I'll tell you a story I heard back when I was in high school taking French classes. One of the assistant teachers described how she tried to learn French idioms by reading comics. She picked up all sorts of colloquial phrases, and when she went to France, people looked at her funny whenever she used them. Finally one of them told her she was saying things that roughly translated as things like "golly gee willikers" and "heavens to betsy." So I would suggest you NOT learn phrases from comic books, you don't have sufficient general knowledge of the language to assess whether these phrases are appropriate for regular speech. All you can know is that they're appropriate for the comic book characters.

Anyway, we've all been through the kanji thing before, there are lots of tips scattered around FG, but I'll give a quick rundown again.
First, it's all about rote memorization. BUT to fully memorize kanji, you must memorize both for passive recognition AND active production. This means you can't just learn how to recognize the kanji and its readings and meanings. You must also learn how to actively produce the kanji in writing, and how to use the kanji and its readings in context while writing phrases.
I still think the best way to do this is by flash cards. But cards have one problem, they only have 2 sides, and you really need 3 sides to be able to reveal the 3 parts of the written kanji, readings, and meaning. So I use a little trick. I like the little strips of punched paper on key rings, you can buy them at any Japanese stationery store, or make them yourself, they're about an inch tall and about 3 inches wide. Put the kanji in the middle, and the reading on the end, then flip it over and put the meaning in English. When you flip the cards, cover the end (with the reading) with your thumb. Then move your thumb to reveal the reading, and speak it aloud. Then you can flip the card to see the meaning. As an additional trick, you might put a couple of jukugo using the kanji on the end, and cover those with your thumb too.
Ah, but we are only half done. You've studied these cards for passive recognition only. Now you have to flip the cards over and do it all again, actively. Put the cards with the meanings face up. Now get a sheet of paper and a pencil. Look at each card's meaning, and try to write the appropriate kanji. Then flip the card and see if you wrote it correctly. Then write the kanji 5 more times for practice, speak the reading aloud as you write it. Now you are learning how to produce the kanji, not just passively recognize it. This is vital to memorization, by actively speaking and writing, you are activating multiple memory pathways, and embedding multiple ways to associate the kanji with a concept.

You may also find it more useful to study kanji as vocabulary. There are common flashcard systems (like the Tuttle Kanji Cards) that use a "progressive vocabulary" system, the cards are in a sequence and each kanji card has several jukugo that are only composed of kanji from cards you've already studied earlier in the sequence. So you don't generally encounter unfamiliar kanji other than the one on the card you are now learning. Other kanji systems (like Spahn & Hadamitzky's book "Kanji & Kana") use the same system. You would probably profit from a more general approach, picking up regular reading material and writing down all the unfamiliar jukugo, then making flashcards. Practice the vocab flashcards, then read the passage again. This is how most textbooks teach reading, you can turn their glossary into flash cards. Try not to use furigana to gloss your reading material, it is a crutch. Just skip the words you don't know, practice your flash cards, and try reading it again.

Writing practice is essential, even in this era of the word processor, as you need to learn how kanji are built from their components. The first hundred or so kanji are reused as components in the more advanced kanji. Learning to write in the correct stroke order will help you understand how kanji are built from those subcomponents. As you advance, you will notice some interesting things, like how a certain component (or radical) appears in kanji that all have the same reading. Don't worry about that stuff now, it will all become apparent in time, it won't help if I explain it now, you sort of have to discover it on your own.

The current theory in Japanese pedagogy is "4 Skills," that you must place equal emphasis on reading, writing, speaking, and listening skills. Note that these are two pairs of passive and active skills: reading/writing and speaking/listening. It is believed that you cannot be fluent without both active and passive skills, and I think the 4 Skills method works.

[Ke11iente]

Thanks for the tips. This has got to be my least favorite part of learning Japanese. I'll try poring over some newspapers and see if I can't read a single sentence.

And thanks for the Thesis Charles :)
I've been studying my flash cards, but only for the purposes of memorizing the meanings and readings. I think that flipping them over, looking at the meanings and attempting to write the kanji themselves is a great idea.

[GomiGirl]

Thanks for the tips. This has got to be my least favorite part of learning Japanese. I'll try poring over some newspapers and see if I can't read a single sentence.

And thanks for the Thesis Charles :)
I've been studying my flash cards, but only for the purposes of memorizing the meanings and readings. I think that flipping them over, looking at the meanings and attempting to write the kanji themselves is a great idea.

The trick is to just keep plugging away and use different methods so you get the information into your brain from different sources. So the reverse flashcards are good so you don't just know what they look like when you read them but when you write them.

However, my kanji is dreadful - I mainly just use.. wait for it.. TangoTown (http://tangotown.jp) :cool:

[james]

i photocopy a page out of my kanji dictionary and just tape it up in front of the head. 5 mintues here and there of just looking at it in a relaxed state and you tend to pick it up.

[Charles]

I think that flipping them over, looking at the meanings and attempting to write the kanji themselves is a great idea.
Yeah, writing kanji from flash cards is a great trick, I was surprised at how much it helped. But don't forget to SAY the kanji reading while writing it. My teachers insisted that speaking the kanji reading while doing writing practice, or speaking it during flash card flipping would increase memorization. It works for me.

Oh.. another little bit of my teacher's advice.. She said that you have to commit something to short-term memory and then forget it a minimum of seven times before it sticks in permanent memory. So don't feel bad about struggling to memorize kanji, even your forgetting kanji is part of the process of learning it. Forgetting is not a failure, it's the path to success. So get busy forgetting your kanji!

[Greji]

Yeah, writing kanji from flash cards is a great trick, I was surprised at how much it helped. But don't forget to SAY the kanji reading while writing it. My teachers insisted that speaking the kanji reading while doing writing practice, or speaking it during flash card flipping would increase memorization. It works for me.

Oh.. another little bit of my teacher's advice.. She said that you have to commit something to short-term memory and then forget it a minimum of seven times before it sticks in permanent memory. So don't feel bad about struggling to memorize kanji, even your forgetting kanji is part of the process of learning it. Forgetting is not a failure, it's the path to success. So get busy forgetting your kanji!

Charles also mentions writing and this is important IMHO. I also went throught the old school at both the Foreign Language Institute and a certain forever unamed J-University (hence my terminal case of YBF).

The gospel as they would have you believe, is to write, write and then, if all else fails, write some more. If you write numerous reps of the kanji 15 and 20 times at a sitting, you are commiting the whole kanji to your memory. The radical, struck order and meaning. You may forget the kanji latter, especially if it is one of those odd ball jobs, but you will never forget that word of vocabulary, or the stoke order when it does pop into your mind. To this day, I still believe saying the kanji, even if only to yourself and writing it is the best way to study kanji. We also seldom used flash cards because the teachers felt they were only short term memory crutches. I have since met people who have used flash cards quite successfully, but I myself am still stuck in the old school mode. Even when I droodle, I sometimes catch myself writing repetitions of a particularly interesting (or uninteresting as the case may be) kanji.
FWIW
:cool:

[Charles]

We also seldom used flash cards because the teachers felt they were only short term memory crutches. I have since met people who have used flash cards quite successfully, but I myself am still stuck in the old school mode. Even when I droodle, I sometimes catch myself writing repetitions of a particularly interesting (or uninteresting as the case may be) kanji.
FWIW
:cool:
Well, I do admit that flash cards become less effective as you progress to higher levels, but they're good for beginners and intermediates. But at some point, you have to develop different strategies towards kanji, I tended towards use of kanji/vocab lists and the Check Sheet (http://weblog.ceicher.com/archives/2003/04/check_sheet.html). It's hard to describe these, since you have to develop your own individualized approach. And that is what kanji study is all about, it is an system that is entirely foreign way of thinking, so you have to develop new mental strategies to deal with it. A good visual memory will help a lot. Most people will have to work at developing their visual memory.

I only came to somewhat of an understanding of the upper levels of kanji by using the Bonjinsha Kanji Book series, the 1000+ level books were an eye opener. I kept finding things that gave me those "forehead slapping moments," like "oh.. so THAT's what that was all about."
Darn it, now I'm feeling rusty, I have all my study books packed away in storage, I've got to get back to work. I can feel all those kanji atrophying in my mind. Well you know what they say, the best way to learn something is to try to teach it to others.

[ojara]

at the scholl, teacher said, Kanji have the originate in simple natural things.

木　from wood,
火　ｆｒｏｍ　ｆｉｒｅ,
人　human
something that.
　
so, we learn first, simple basic word, and added other meaning.
we remenber Kanji mean and images both.

枯れる　　木+古　　wood + old = This tree is dead.　like this.


I don't know what level Kanji need.
basic one + use often kanji, first pick up them .

http://www.alc.co.jp/jpn/learner/link/03.html


I also ｃａｎnot much remenber Englsh words. ;) ;)

[Greji]

at the scholl, teacher said, Kanji have the originate in simple natural things. ;)

One of my old teachers always used to say we had to practice writing "mizu" (水) to obtain perfection in writing. The logic was that the character contained every directional stroke used in writing any kanji and If one could write "mizu" correctly, they would develop beautiful stroke penmanship for kanji! Needless to say, if you ever saw my writing, you would know I didn"t write "mizu" a helluva lot! Now mizuari's are a differant topic!
:cool:

[Charles]

One of my old teachers always used to say we had to practice writing "mizu" (水) to obtain perfection in writing. The logic was that the character contained every directional stroke used in writing any kanji and If one could write "mizu" correctly, they would develop beautiful stroke penmanship for kanji! Needless to say, if you ever saw my writing, you would know I didn"t write "mizu" a helluva lot! Now mizuari's are a differant topic!
:cool:
A lot of teachers use "ei," it's sort of like "mizu" but it has the little dot at the top too. I spent considerable effort trying to master that little splotch. It's the classic lesson in many calligraphy books (http://inav.net/〜ceicher/pages/calligraphy.html).

http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/images/vbimghost/562468c6e89eaf6d.jpg

[Greji]

A lot of teachers use "ei," it's sort of like "mizu" but it has the little dot at the top too. I spent considerable effort trying to master that little splotch. It's the classic lesson in many calligraphy books.

Right on Charles. They probably thought I could not make the "splotch", hence the "mizu". But that is the same school. As for the blotch, especially if you get into the grass writing, you will get sick of making that blotch over and over, only to be told "not quite right, try it again".

:cool:

[ojara]

children, everyday 1-2 page kanji kakitori at homework.

My freind from Canada, she use J-Zaurus(that borrow from me) and pick up neccesaly word, and first, look over 'Yomikata 読み方'　ｆｉｒｓｔ，and next search
for mean, by J-E dictionaly.

that very smart way, I thought.

************
p.s.
I did not much Kakitori for English words. ;) ;) ;)

[kamome]

I think manga are awful as language learning tools, particularly the ones written for children even if they have furigana. Do you want to learn how to speak like a child, or an adult? [GIANT SNIP]


Look, Charles, you're only half understanding what I meant when I suggested manga as a learning tool. Some manga contain quite normal conversation and others contain the slang and baby-talk that would not be considered standard dialogue. I think it's pretty obvious which is which, and any beginner who doesn't know the difference should always check with their teacher or language partner before using these phrases in conversation.

Anyway, her question was about memorizing kanji. In a manga, seeing the words used in context accompanied by pictures showing the situation where the word is used is one good way to learn because of the visual connection between the word and the usage. I also agree that flash cards are good study tools.

[Charles]

Look, Charles, you're only half understanding what I meant when I suggested manga as a learning tool. Some manga contain quite normal conversation and others contain the slang and baby-talk that would not be considered standard dialogue. I think it's pretty obvious which is which, and any beginner who doesn't know the difference should always check with their teacher or language partner before using these phrases in conversation.
Heavens to Betsy, was my widdle essay a boo-boo? No, I think not. It is better not to fill your head full of that crap in the first place, you are bound to blurt it out inadvertently. Reading manga makes you stupid.
If you want to learn USEFUL kanji, try reading "Tensei Jingo" every day in the Asahi Shimbun. I often say the media in Japan is a distribution mechanism for neologisms and the "topic of the day" kanji, and Tensei Jingo is a prime example. The Asahi Shimbun has a free service where you can get the column and an English translation by email every day.

[Mulboyne]

It really depends what you want, Charles. You would be very unsatisfied by the Japanese you might learn through manga but it might suit others very well. A Japanese friend of mine spent the late seventies hanging out in London with the Bromley crowd and picked up his English through talking to them while reading NME and record covers. There is no way he could read Charles Dickens or even Harry Potter very easily but his friends aren't worried by that and he has built his career on his London contacts.

[kamome]

Heavens to Betsy, was my widdle essay a boo-boo? No, I think not. It is better not to fill your head full of that crap in the first place, you are bound to blurt it out inadvertently. Reading manga makes you stupid.
If you want to learn USEFUL kanji, try reading "Tensei Jingo" every day in the Asahi Shimbun. I often say the media in Japan is a distribution mechanism for neologisms and the "topic of the day" kanji, and Tensei Jingo is a prime example. The Asahi Shimbun has a free service where you can get the column and an English translation by email every day.
Speak for yourself. I managed to increase my kanji reading comprehension and conversational skills to business-level fluency using a combination of manga study, flashcards, translation of documents and articles, and everyday usage with colleagues.

It takes a certain level of discipline to know when to use variations of Japanese in various situations; in fact, that is one hallmark of fluency. Maybe you wouldn't be able to help yourself from blurting out erroneous Japanese in the wrong situations, but that wasn't a problem for me.

Obviously you don't like being contradicted when it comes to language acquisition techniques, but as Mulb said, it depends on what you want and how you want to get there.

[james]

my elder son, now ichinensei, has started learning to write kanji, and i've decided that rather than have his old man appear stupid, i'd keep up on things a bit.

found this handy little website:

link (http://www.winttk.com/kakijun/001.htm)

which organizes the kanji into grade levels taught at school and is useful for checking stroke order.

[Iraira]

my elder son, now ichinensei, has started learning to write kanji, and i've decided that rather than have his old man appear stupid, i'd keep up on things a bit.

found this handy little website:

link (http://www.winttk.com/kakijun/001.htm)

which organizes the kanji into grade levels taught at school and is useful for checking stroke order.

You've just convinced me not to reproduce (and the human race is spared). I can't write for s-it. Can read pretty all fine and dandy, but my friend's ninensei rugrat laughed at the sloppy mess of pre-inchinensei Kanji and mangled hiragana I attempted to pen in the birthday card I sent to her last month. haji haji haji.

[omae mona]

That's a nice page, James. There's also a useful chart of the kanji by grade level (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%95%99%E8%82%B2%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97%E4%B8%80%E8%A 6%A7) on Wikipedia, for those who want to see the whole daunting list on one page. But it doesn't have the nice stroke-order display feature on the page you found.

[Big Booger]

I have been using this site:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ik2r-myr/kanji/kanji1a.htm (http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/%7Eik2r-myr/kanji/kanji1a.htm)

For practice.

I usually look up the stroke orders in a separate dictionary. So far so good.

[james]

You've just convinced me not to reproduce (and the human race is spared). I can't write for s-it. Can read pretty all fine and dandy, but my friend's ninensei rugrat laughed at the sloppy mess of pre-inchinensei Kanji and mangled hiragana I attempted to pen in the birthday card I sent to her last month. haji haji haji.

i can write so-so. certainly not neatly, but same goes for my english penmanship :D such is the miracle of modern computing.

when i first came over what seems ages ago on a whv for six months, i spent a good portion of my day studying and got through to the end of the fourth grade kanji.

since having come to reside about 10 years ago though, i really haven't put much into an effort into writing, just passive recall - reading and using the pc. i've found now though that all that passive exposure has made it so that stuff i'm reviewing or learning now sticks.

[james]

That's a nice page, James. There's also a useful chart of the kanji by grade level (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%95%99%E8%82%B2%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97%E4%B8%80%E8%A 6%A7) on Wikipedia, for those who want to see the whole daunting list on one page. But it doesn't have the nice stroke-order display feature on the page you found.

handy to see them laid out like that on the wiki page. i've got the grades 1-6 漢字ワーク books by my desk now and a pile of scrap paper. i'm just going through them a bit at a time, so if i'm at my desk wasting time online, i can pull a book out and do a bit of review and do something more useful than hanging out with you bums on fg ;)

[sublight]

I've been thinking about getting a Nintendo DS and the Kanji Kentei practice software, since that has drills on writing as well as reading. Has anyone tried this?

[james]

I've been thinking about getting a Nintendo DS and the Kanji Kentei practice software, since that has drills on writing as well as reading. Has anyone tried this?

i was thinking of doing this too but then i'd have to hide the damn thing from my sons or buy two more! i have a few students who attest to its efficacy so it may be worth trying.