maraboutslim wrote:FWIW, on the chopstick thing, you could just say, "yeah, there are a lot of chinese restaurants back home..." and then the japanese might feel stupid.

I always tell the truth - that in my family we always used chopsticks at home when we had chinese takeout. This is actually the truth and it is where I learned how to use them - but the big fat chinese plastic ones.

I agree with maraboutslim about the compliments, when it's something meaningless (niohonggo ga jouzu 5 seconds after meeting me). Just smile and say 'iie, iie,' do the little 'nah, it's nothing' hand-wave, and move the conversation along. Compliments on chopstick should either get a 'you too' or a similar compliment on their skill with spoons. Occasionally this makes them snap out of it and the conversation generally improves.

For compliments on actual accomplishments, I'd say just act natural.

sublight wrote:I agree with maraboutslim about the compliments, when it's something meaningless (niohonggo ga jouzu 5 seconds after meeting me). Just smile and say 'iie, iie,' do the little 'nah, it's nothing' hand-wave, and move the conversation along. Compliments on chopstick should either get a 'you too' or a similar compliment on their skill with spoons. Occasionally this makes them snap out of it and the conversation generally improves.

For compliments on actual accomplishments, I'd say just act natural.

No. compliment them on their chopstick abilities, and ask where they learned how to use them. After they explain, just tell them "oh, same here". Might kill the conversation right then and there, but really, anyone who's gonna start out a conversation with that slap-handed compliment deserves to eat the rest of the meal in silence. UNLESS, OF COURSE, the person offering the compliment is a very hot female, in which case.....duh.

Ikemen-of-d00m wrote:...I've heard that you are supposed to deny the compliment, but that goes against every thing I stand for. Denying the truth is not my style. But if this really is the only way to deal with compliments in Japan, I guess I have no choice...

If you can't come up with a bit of self-deprecation for the sake of smooth social interaction then you'd probably find it hard in Britain too. Here, you are also just as likely to be complimented by being told you are bad at something.

When you write of your problem with "denying the truth", you are focusing too much on what is being said and not why it is being said. By and large, it's to make you and the speaker feel more comfortable and your response should aim to do the same. You are human, not Mr Spock.

Mulboyne wrote:If you can't come up with a bit of self-deprecation for the sake of smooth social interaction then you'd probably find it hard in Britain too. Here, you are also just as likely to be complimented by being told you are bad at something.

When you write of your problem with "denying the truth", you are focusing too much on what is being said and not why it is being said. By and large, it's to make you and the speaker feel more comfortable and your response should aim to do the same. You are human, not Mr Spock.

I guess it's a bit of a cultural difference. Where I come from, people are a lot colder, so compliments are quite rare. Therefore, it is normal to say "thank you", and then proceed the conversation.

To be honest, I feel like it is more rude to deny the compliment. Why? Because I feel like I am telling the person that he/she is silly for saying something like that or that he/she suck at observation.

But that is just something I'll have to adjust to. At least it's easy to deny the chopstick and Japanese-compliments :P

4. Is sex a declaration of love?

Before you burst out laughing, I must stress that I don't include the crazy gaijin hunters or the slutty girls who go out drinking every single day. I am talking about the regular Japanese girl[SIZE="1"][insert joke about how they all are slutty, haha very funny][/SIZE]

Coming from one of the most liberal countries in the world, where men and women are equal in every possible way, this is important to know. Not just for me, but for many of my friends. Back home, most relationships pretty much begin with sex, and THEN evolve into something more serious, if both the girl and the boy feel like continuing. If none of them wants to become serious, they can always become "friends with benefits".

Having discussed this matter with Japanese girls, and also having experienced the bitterness of being ditched for not being "serious" enough, it seems to me that you should be in love with a girl, before having sex. But this really bugs me! To me "love" is something really serious, and really rare. I have only been in love once in my life. And it took me a looooong time to realize it! It can't really be THAT different to others? It's not like you fall in love with all the people you like and want to have sex with! So how do the Japanese people solve this? Do they trick themselves into believing that they actually are in love, or do they just say that to get laid? Back home people are more honest about this stuff, and it's not really an issue.

Here is the problem: I cannot lie about these things. Not to myself, and especially not to girls. If I even try to lie about these things, it feels like I'm gonna throw up. I believe it's called "conscience"(..) In other words, if Japanese girls expect you to be in love with them, before hitting the futon, I am in deep shit. I seldom get strong feelings, and I don't like moving at a slow pace. The way I see it, these are my choices:

1. Be serious and proceed slowly
2. Lie
3. Find a "party girl"

Am I terribly mistaken, or is this the hard truth? The reason I ask here, is because I want to hear the arguments from an experienced gaijin perspective. That means: no Charisma Men who shag 22 Norikos at the same time

...be born again...I gave up trying to "integrate" 3 months into my stay...

Ikemen-of-d00m wrote:4. Is sex a declaration of love?

Before you burst out laughing, I must stress that I don't include the crazy gaijin hunters or the slutty girls who go out drinking every single day. I am talking about the regular Japanese girl[SIZE="1"][insert joke about how they all are slutty, haha very funny][/SIZE]

Coming from one of the most liberal countries in the world, where men and women are equal in every possible way, this is important to know. Not just for me, but for many of my friends. Back home, most relationships pretty much begin with sex, and THEN evolve into something more serious, if both the girl and the boy feel like continuing. If none of them wants to become serious, they can always become "friends with benefits".

Having discussed this matter with Japanese girls, and also having experienced the bitterness of being ditched for not being "serious" enough, it seems to me that you should be in love with a girl, before having sex. But this really bugs me! To me "love" is something really serious, and really rare. I have only been in love once in my life. And it took me a looooong time to realize it! It can't really be THAT different to others? It's not like you fall in love with all the people you like and want to have sex with! So how do the Japanese people solve this? Do they trick themselves into believing that they actually are in love, or do they just say that to get laid? Back home people are more honest about this stuff, and it's not really an issue.

Here is the problem: I cannot lie about these things. Not to myself, and especially not to girls. If I even try to lie about these things, it feels like I'm gonna throw up. I believe it's called "conscience"(..) In other words, if Japanese girls expect you to be in love with them, before hitting the futon, I am in deep shit. I seldom get strong feelings, and I don't like moving at a slow pace. The way I see it, these are my choices:

1. Be serious and proceed slowly
2. Lie
3. Find a "party girl"

Am I terribly mistaken, or is this the hard truth? The reason I ask here, is because I want to hear the arguments from an experienced gaijin perspective. That means: no Charisma Men who shag 22 Norikos at the same time

in japan there are "friends" and friends just like there is "love" and ... nah, they all lie then marry when someone gets knocked up.

Ikemen-of-d00m wrote:4. Is sex a declaration of love?

If you're still with a woman after having gone through every problem, ordeal, setback, and disappointment imaginable, and still want to stay with her no matter what other difficulties might arise in the future, that's love.

Everything else is just loving sex.

I am like Lurker. I have no ambitions of integrating. being a gaikokujin is good enough for me.

As for the compliments, it annoys me but I put up with them by saying "iie" or "arigato gozaimasu". The only time that I think their compliment is genuine is when their jaw drops at my singing enka in karaoke knowing that I am a newbie in Japan and almost never speak Japanese with anyone.

About the sex part, I think sex is a declaration of love in Japan. Though I could never understand that. I tell my friends in Canada Japanese girls will only sleep with you if they love you. But it is not that difficult to make them love you. Usually a dinner with wine will do the trick.

Jack wrote:But it is not that difficult to make them love you. Usually a dinner with wine will do the trick.

F X 4 = Love.....

Greji wrote:F X 4 = Love.....

I don't know what you mean by "integrate"? Be accepted despite your imperfect Japanese? Be accepted despite your looks? On the other hand, why would you want to "integrate"?

I have met a few gaijin that have "integrated" to the point where they bow, smack their lips, dress, smell, walk and speak like Mr. Suzuki next door and look totally weird...unnatural...

I was meeting with one of these types, he was late for the meeting and kept calling every 15 seconds to tell me he was 150, 100, 75, 50 ...meters away from the building..he then FINALLY arrived and bowed so deeply I thought he was kissing his knees and apologized for about 5 minutes...he then proved to me that he can actually read Kanji by reading off some ancient text he loves...(like I gave a fuck)....Canadian...as if it wasn't bad enough already....even my Japanese colleague thought the guy was a nut....

The best example of a totally wacky "integrated gaijin?" is the American dude that appears on NHK and speaks some local Japanese dialect...the first time I saw him I thought to myself "What the fuck is wrong with this motherfucker?" Walk around Detroit speaking like that and you'll get a cap in your ass in no time....

hurryharry wrote:
The best example of a totally wacky "integrated gaijin?" is the American dude that appears on NHK and speaks some local Japanese dialect...the first time I saw him I thought to myself "What the fuck is wrong with this motherfucker?" Walk around Detroit speaking like that and you'll get a cap in your ass in no time....

Says more about the shithole known as Detroit than it does Japan.

hurryharry wrote:I don't know what you mean by "integrate"? Be accepted despite your imperfect Japanese? Be accepted despite your looks? On the other hand, why would you want to "integrate"?

I have met a few gaijin that have "integrated" to the point where they bow, smack their lips, dress, smell, walk and speak like Mr. Suzuki next door and look totally weird...unnatural...

I was meeting with one of these types, he was late for the meeting and kept calling every 15 seconds to tell me he was 150, 100, 75, 50 ...meters away from the building..he then FINALLY arrived and bowed so deeply I thought he was kissing his knees and apologized for about 5 minutes...he then proved to me that he can actually read Kanji by reading off some ancient text he loves...(like I gave a fuck)....Canadian...as if it wasn't bad enough already....even my Japanese colleague thought the guy was a nut....

....

[SIZE="4"]Peter Mackintosh[/SIZE]

[font="Courier New"]Out here in Kyoto we've got an ugly middle aged white guy who waddles around downtown in a yukata and clompy shoes. Apparently he's someone who does something, traditional tours or somesuch. One day some of my Asian American friends are drinking outside a club when he clomps up and begins hitting on the in awkward way that waddly white guys will. When they being to laugh at him in English he starts screaming that he knew they weren't Japanese anyway. Because they're fat. Fat bitches! And clomped off sniffling.[/font]

[font="Courier New"]I ran into him in a bar in Kyoto once. He wouldn't shut up about geisha. I tried to politely tell him that I had no interest in that sort of thing, but he deemed it important to tell me all about how respected he is in the geisha community, and how special it is for foreigners, etc. He just struck me as entirely indifferent to social cues, so I went to another bar instead. That website really does a good job of showing exactly how he was in person -- self-important and not so interesting.

Of all the places I've been in Japan, I seem to run into more foreign weirdos in Kyoto than anywhere else. Is it something in the water?[/font]

hurryharry wrote:....

The best example of a totally wacky "integrated gaijin?" is the American dude that appears on NHK and speaks some local Japanese dialect...the first time I saw him I thought to myself "What the fuck is wrong with this motherfucker?" Walk around Detroit speaking like that and you'll get a cap in your ass in no time....

[SIZE="4"]Daniel Kahl[/SIZE]

I've met some pretty ''Integrated Gaijin'' before but probably the most was a guy out in Sannohe, Aomori. Some locals introduced us because we are both from Oregon. Guy speaks Tohoku ben, works construction, built his own home, drives one of mini farm trucks and is on his third Japanese wife. How he got there? I'm not sure but he is.

Of all the places I've been in Japan, I seem to run into more foreign weirdos in Kyoto than anywhere else. Is it something in the water?

I've noticed this too. I guess the more-Japanese-than-the-Japanese weirdos are attracted by Kyoto's history, the high concentration of historical buildings/temples/etc, and the presence of traditional Japanese arts/culture.

I'm not sure how the average Japanese feels about Japanese who are from Kyoto but more than a few times I have heard people in Osaka say that Japanese from Kyoto are kinda weird too. So who knows, maybe it is something in the water.

FG Lurker wrote:
I'm not sure how the average Japanese feels about Japanese who are from Kyoto .

They say they are hard to get in with (if you move there to live). Also, they are proud of their dialect (much like Kansai folks) and will speak it wherever they go.

TennoChinko wrote:
[SIZE="4"]Peter Mackintosh[/SIZE]








[SIZE="4"]Daniel Kahl[/SIZE]

That's the fucker...the other fat dude reminds me of a yet another "integrated gaijin" walking around Yokohama in a yukata...beard, long hair in a pony tail...fat & sweaty....and some weird shoes...I actually thought he was going to some reenactment of the bar scene in Star Wars...some high school kids were laughing at him and I don't blame them.

TennoChinko wrote:
[SIZE="4"]Peter Mackintosh[/SIZE]








[SIZE="4"]Daniel Kahl[/SIZE]

ha...i've met that peter makintosh character. total fruit basket! he says he's married to a retired geisha and that's how he has access to all of the secret places like maiko hairdressers and such. then he wanted 25.000 yen for an afternoon walking tour of these secret places. i advised my tourist friend to decline and just hang out on the same street as the houses for free. 'nuff said.

btw, did jack say he doesn't have any desire to integrate? sad, pathetic fucker. doesn't want to integrate, doesn't want to put up with j-bashing. i bet he is actually that sad fucker who walks around yokohama in a yukata. or at least he did on his one trip to japan back in 2002.

...another sad example of an "integrated gaijin" is this pathetic fuck from New Jersey I work with, 17 years in Japan, single, never married, late 50's, may not know what pussy is, ...we have a staff meeting (all gaijin from different places)...he comes in, greets us in Japanese and bows like he's meeting the emperor...

I'm usually criticized for not doing things "the Japanese way," but I tell my staff that that is exactly my mission....show them that there is another way...

hurryharry wrote:...another sad example of an "integrated gaijin" is this pathetic fuck from New Jersey I work with, 17 years in Japan, single, never married, late 50's, may not know what pussy is, ...we have a staff meeting (all gaijin from different places)...he comes in, greets us in Japanese and bows like he's meeting the emperor...

I'm usually criticized for not doing things "the Japanese way," but I tell my staff that that is exactly my mission....show them that there is another way...

ya, when i meet other gaijin i get a bow and a japanese phrase sometimes... i just give them the WTF look and continue in English...

when it is just for fucking about im ok, but in serious situations... why do some stupid crap like that?

hurryharry wrote:I'm usually criticized for not doing things "the Japanese way," but I tell my staff that that is exactly my mission....show them that there is another way...

but you DO realise there actually is not another way, right?

Cyka UchuuJin wrote:but you DO realise there actually is not another way, right?

...there is always another way...the 90-10 rule: 10% reality, 90% our interpretation of it...

I've been working/living in Japan for the majority of my life, and I've never received a compliment about my Japanese / Chopstick skills. Must be doing something wrong.

What has happened to me were people getting upset because I couldn't understand what they were saying, and when telling them I don't understand they just end up repeating it louder. Has this happened to anyone else?

ketchupkatsu wrote:I've been working/living in Japan for the majority of my life, and I've never received a compliment about my Japanese / Chopstick skills. Must be doing something wrong.

What has happened to me were people getting upset because I couldn't understand what they were saying, and when telling them I don't understand they just end up repeating it louder. Has this happened to anyone else?

Interesting. Do you look Asian?

ketchupkatsu wrote:I've been working/living in Japan for the majority of my life, and I've never received a compliment about my Japanese / Chopstick skills. Must be doing something wrong.

What has happened to me were people getting upset because I couldn't understand what they were saying, and when telling them I don't understand they just end up repeating it louder. Has this happened to anyone else?

ya they usually are police/old people that try to confront me on something. I just ask them to say it again, then they shake their head and move on.

Gaijin 101, if you know Japanese, dont use it until necessary.

Complaints about chopstick usage? only complaint you could get is if you point the copstick at people (sorta like pointing your knife or fork at someone... no no) or if you just stab them in your rice so they stick up... i do that a lot and it always gets someone pissed off

so are you asian?

ketchupkatsu wrote:What has happened to me were people getting upset because I couldn't understand what they were saying, and when telling them I don't understand they just end up repeating it louder. Has this happened to anyone else?

To be fair though, I have seen this happen to foreigners (ie Japanese) in my own country when speaking with local people who have never traveled. It is the automatic response when the speaker thinks they haven't been heard - repeat same words just louder.

I have been told that my English is easy to understand by non native speakers. This is because I am so used to what non-native speakers usually can and can't understand in terms of slang, idiom etc.

On the flip side, there are some people who I speak to regularly who are excellent at using Japanese that I can easily understand as they are also conscious of vocab and idiom that are difficult for non-native Japanese speakers. There is also one guy in my office that I have been working with for a decade that still find very difficult to understand as he is so focused on his message and forgets that I am not a native speaker. But then he cannot speak any English.

So for cross communications, it is really important IMHO that all the players have some appreciation of the difficulties of communication in another language and so adjustments can be made accordingly. Isn't honest communication the most important thing rather than how much you can pretend to be just like somebody you can never be...