Asahi: U.S. refuses to hand over suspects
U.S. military authorities are refusing to hand over four children of American servicemen sought for the attempted murder of a motorcyclist in western Tokyo, sources said. According to police, the four, aged between 15 and 18, stretched a rope across a road, knocking a 23-year-old company employee from her motorcycle around 11:30 p.m. on Aug. 13. The woman suffered a fractured skull. Japanese police are treating the case as attempted murder. Police obtained an arrest warrant for the teens, whose parents serve at Yokota Air Base, on Nov. 24, but the U.S. military has refused to comply, the sources said. The police were forced to obtain a new arrest warrant Tuesday because of the delay and are pressing the U.S. military authorities to cooperate. The four were identified as suspects based on witness accounts and security camera footage.

Grej,
What grounds could they refuse to hand over the suspects? Because they're minors, perhaps?
My understanding of SOFA is that the U.S. is pretty much obliged to hand over anyone accused of violent crime (as attempted murder would be).
Considering how much friction these cases cause, there must be some fairly serious shit going on behind the scenes for the Man to stand behind these kids.

Screwed-down Hairdo wrote:Grej,
What grounds could they refuse to hand over the suspects? Because they're minors, perhaps?
My understanding of SOFA is that the U.S. is pretty much obliged to hand over anyone accused of violent crime (as attempted murder would be).
Considering how much friction these cases cause, there must be some fairly serious shit going on behind the scenes for the Man to stand behind these kids.

There may be some question as to whether "attempted murder" is an appropriate charge. The military probably considers it to be too severe. They'd probably be happier with some variation of assault, which actually makes more sense to me.

Just guessing though.

I suspect it is both a matter that the accused are dependents, not military personnel, as well as the charge of attempted murder being a bit much for the US to accept.

Kuang_Grade wrote:I suspect it is both a matter that the accused are dependents, not military personnel, as well as the charge of attempted murder being a bit much for the US to accept.

If you are old enough to commit the crime, then you should be willing to serve the time.

And if intentionally committing a deliberate premeditated act with the intention of causing injury, especially when that act is known to cause severe injury, permanent disability, and even death, is not attempted murder, then what is.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/news/article.asp?docKey=600-200909170410KRTRIB__BUSNEWS_38155-11T19QQQUMK1P0C4G7UFMS7LAJ¶ms=timestamp%7C%7C09/17/2009%204:10%20AM%20ET%7C%7Cheadline%7C%7CSuit%20charges%20wrongful%20death%20in%20Wilton%20teen's%20fatal%20motorcycle%20ride%3A%20Wilton%2013-year-old%20died%20after%20bike%20ride%20%5BConnecticut%20Post%2C%20Bridgeport%5D%7C%7CdocSource%7C%7CKnight%20Ridder/Tribune%7C%7Cprovider%7C%7CACQUIREMEDIA&ric=HMC

Personally I would rather be shot in the chest, then have my neck hit a taught rope at high speed, since although both are potential fatal, if I did survive, I am far more likely to end up brain damaged or a quadriplegic with the rope than with a chest gunshot.

The US must hand over these kids immediately over to the J-police. (Of course, the US would be correct to ask for written assurances with third party validation that they get a fair trial and are not beaten/tortured into any confessions.) After a fair trial, if they are proven guilty, then those kids should spend decades rotting away in a Japanese prison for what they done!

But imagine if some Japanese kids in the US pulled the same stunt and tried to kill a motorcyclist there. You can bet that there would be incredible public outcry and incredible political pressure in the US to bring those Japanese kids to justice.

alicia454 wrote:If you are old enough to commit the crime, then you should be willing to serve the time.

Alicia, while I tend to agree with you, I'm sure there is a bigger issue at stake than just the kids who are accused.
Every instance where the military hands over a suspect has implications every time someone else from the military is accused of a crime in the future.
There must be something on the mind of the military forces if they won't hand them over. I'm sure they'll comply in the end, but I'd be interested to hear the details of why they were so reluctant and what had to change to get their compliance.

AFAIK, the SOFA requires anyone charged with a crime to be handed over to the Japanese, but the US will hand over those suspected of heinous crimes such as murder or rape before formal charges are brought (the much talked about "suspicion of murder" in the Ichihashi case, for example).

This leads me to suspect that the translation of the charges may be leaving out "suspicion of ~". It is not US policy/agreed upon in the SOFA (again, IIUC) to hand over suspects until formal charges with a specific crime.

Mike Oxlong wrote:AFAIK, the SOFA requires anyone charged with a crime to be handed over to the Japanese, but the US will hand over those suspected of heinous crimes such as murder or rape before formal charges are brought (the much talked about "suspicion of murder" in the Ichihashi case, for example).

This leads me to suspect that the translation of the charges may be leaving out "suspicion of ~". It is not US policy/agreed upon in the SOFA (again, IIUC) to hand over suspects until formal charges with a specific crime.

Yea, but does SOFA apply to the dependants of service personnel as well?

The fact that these gaijin brats didnt report police about that woman means that they are criminals.
Dont disturb public peace even in my neighborhood, gaijin brats!!!
And if Yokota Air Base refuses to hand over it, fuck off from Fussa and Tachikawa.

In a civil court case, the victim would be better off suing them in the US as Japanese courts reward pittances to the victims of crimes.

Ketou wrote:Yea, but does SOFA apply to the dependants of service personnel as well?

Yes, of course, and many military contractors as well. They are not here on the visa system that most foreign students, workers, or spouses are on.

[quote]ARTICLE I

In this Agreement the expression -

(a) "members of the United States armed forces" means the personnel on active duty belonging to the land, sea or air armed services of the United States of America when in the territory of Japan.
•]
http://www.niraikanai.wwma.net/pages/archive/sofa.html

alicia454 wrote:And if intentionally committing a deliberate premeditated act with the intention of causing injury, especially when that act is known to cause severe injury, permanent disability, and even death, is not attempted murder, then what is.

Do we know for a fact that they went out there that day to kill someone? DId they only settle on rope because they couldn't find piano wire? No, at least not yet. For all we know, they saw something like this on J TV and sought to try it out themselves. Now, I didn't say they were kids just being kids nor did I say they should immune to prosecution but there is a huge difference between premeditated attempted murder and say, grievous bodily harm or reckless endangerment. To me reckless endangerment sounds like a logical starting point, not starting with premeditated attempted murder on day 1.

Also that link you provided is in regards to a civil suit against the parents of the alleged perpetrator...it remains to be seen if a criminal case will actually proceed in that case (and even if it does, the kid would be out at either 18 or 21 years old max) and the J cops aren't looking for some civil restitution.

The US must hand over these kids immediately over to the J-police. (Of course, the US would be correct to ask for written assurances with third party validation that they get a fair trial and are not beaten/tortured into any confessions.) After a fair trial, if they are proven guilty, then those kids should spend decades rotting away in a Japanese prison for what they done!

Yeah, good luck on the no beatings/no 30 hour interview session assurance/fair trail stipulation....exactly how many J criminal trails end in acquittal? Something very 'fair' sounding like 1-2% of them, I believe.

But imagine if some Japanese kids in the US pulled the same stunt and tried to kill a motorcyclist there. You can bet that there would be incredible public outcry and incredible political pressure in the US to bring those Japanese kids to justice.

I think no one would really give a shit in the US...people get messed up and killed all the time in the US, by natives and non-citizens, and almost no one makes the distinction between the two....although it helps that non-citizens tend to victimize other non-citizens and leave the natives alone. Also if the situation was reversed, those J kids would have 99.9% of the rights and due process of US citizens...that's not going to be the case in Japan...If J kids did this to a J person, would the J prosecutor being pursuing this the same way?...pretty unlikely.

The outcry in the US you predict would be nothing compared to a US military commander arbitrarily seizing a non-inducted minor and handing them over to foreign power without a hell of alot of evidence of their alleged wrong doing first.

Yokohammer wrote:There may be some question as to whether "attempted murder" is an appropriate charge. The military probably considers it to be too severe. They'd probably be happier with some variation of assault, which actually makes more sense to me.

Just guessing though.

i would have expected the charge to be something like 'inappropriate disposal of a bod --- motorbike?' i thought the police like to take these international incidents deliberately and prudently...

alicia454 wrote:But imagine if some Japanese kids in the US pulled the same stunt and tried to kill a motorcyclist there. You can bet that there would be incredible public outcry and incredible political pressure in the US to bring those Japanese kids to justice.

no. i disagree. they'd be hated just cuz they're criminals.

Kuang_Grade wrote:Insert a load of apologist crap here...

The US does not decide what charges are used in an indictment.

If they did the stunt on base and someone was as critically injured as the woman was, they would have been charged with attempted murder. It was a malicious and intentional act to kill or main someone. It was not some fun trick-or-treat stunt. They intended to behead a motorcyclist, and almost did.

Turn them over to the police.

These guys would all be better off being tried in Japan than the US. They're all legally minors and as such would be out of jail in a few years if convicted.

maybe i've missed something, but is it clear how high the rope was set? when i first read this, i imagined a trip wire. if this is a decapitation device, it's quite a bit worse.

Screwed-down Hairdo wrote:Grej,
What grounds could they refuse to hand over the suspects? Because they're minors, perhaps?
My understanding of SOFA is that the U.S. is pretty much obliged to hand over anyone accused of violent crime (as attempted murder would be).
Considering how much friction these cases cause, there must be some fairly serious shit going on behind the scenes for the Man to stand behind these kids.

The first thing is information in the TV or Print media is not necessarily accurate. Too often they have an agenda to supplement stories which support (and even incite) on-going news coverage (like the base issues in Okinawa), so they don't spend a lot of time on the actual legal aspects.

First, if a SOFA military member is involved in an incident requiring arrest, the Japanese police can arrest that person any place or time. Custody is the problem. SOFA requires that if the individual is arrested in the presence of military authorities, he must be released to the military and be made available to the JNP for investigation/interrogation, but will remain in military control/detention. Extreme cases, or capital cases often see the responsible commander waiver SOFA requirements and release the individual directly to the Japanese police. Also, if and when the individual is indicted by the Japanese court, his custody can be and usually is, transferred to the Japanese. The Japanese can waiver this allowing the accused custody to be the responsibility of the US. This normally happens in cases that are more minor in nature, but still serious enough to go to trial

The case in point involves non-military dependents. There is no SOFA requirement or protocol for the US to refuse a valid arrest warrant for custodial custody of a SOFA civilian, or dependent. If the US has refused to release them, it should only be because a warrant has not been issued. If the JNP present a warrant, the military custodial issue is not in question. Any dependent, or civilian employee goes directly to jail, does not pass go and does not collect $200.00.

As you may, or may not know, JNP are extremely lenient in the pursuance of cases involving minors. They may in fact wash their hands of it and turn it over to juvenile welfare authorities in toto. I do not know enough about this case other than it involved a somewhat serious injury, so it would be hard to do more than guess what is transpiring. Normally, disposition in these type of cases can involve restitution, payment for medical fees and lost salary, at which point a lot of victims will waiver pursing criminal charges because the suspect(s) are minors.

As for action taken by the military, they will definitely take action against the parent(s), even if the crime is sufficiently major enough to bring the dependent/civilian before a District Court. The latter seldom happens as if the case is that serious, the Japanese will exercise jurisdiction and even then, the parent can still receive military punishment. It is not the free ride that some people would have you believe.

Takechanpoo wrote:The fact that these gaijin brats didnt report police about that woman means that they are criminals.
Dont disturb public peace even in my neighborhood, gaijin brats!!!
And if Yokota Air Base refuses to hand over it, fuck off from Fussa and Tachikawa.

The TV said they were arrested today Take. You're now safe!
Remember that!

When he was about ten, my little brother and some friends got busted by a neighbor guy while they were tying a piece of string across the street. They all disclaimed responsibility, including my brother, who, inconveniently, actually had one end of the string in his hand.

Little Brother: "Huh. How'd that string get there?"
Neighbor Guy: "I think you put it there, son."
Little Brother: "Oh yeah, I guess I did."

Catoneinutica wrote:When he was about ten, my little brother and some friends got busted by a neighbor guy while they were tying a piece of string across the street. They all disclaimed responsibility, including my brother, who, inconveniently, actually had one end of the string in his hand.

Little Brother: "Huh. How'd that string get there?"
Neighbor Guy: "I think you put it there, son."
Little Brother: "Oh yeah, I guess I did."

How many of you did stupid shit like this when you were kids?

I remeber throwing apples at cars with a friend from the top of an embankment near his house. We thought it was the funniest thing ever. I don't think it's quite as bad as clotheslining a person on a motorbike and we were also a lot younger than that group. However, an apple suddenly smashing into your windshield and splattering could surprise you enough to cause an accident. Luckily that didn't happen but what a stupid fucking thing to do.

Samurai_Jerk wrote:How many of you did stupid shit like this when you were kids?

A watermelon off a viaduct on a dark night is another attention getter....

Greji wrote:A watermelon off a viaduct on a dark night is another attention getter....

Still nothing compare to a fridge from a bridge on a bullet train track...

Not me...

Some bored youth in bad parisian suburbs...

Maybe as stupid as hillarious for its 'over the top' aspect...

(yes, those genius did destroy the overhead power wire therefore reducing to 0 any chances of trains colliding with said fridge...)

Coligny wrote:Still nothing compare to a fridge from a bridge on a bullet train track...

A fridge off a bridge! Damn that's poetic! Can't you French do anything that isn't artsy?

How about filling large trash bags with city gas and letting them float away? Or dropping throw-down firecrackers into pedestrian traffic from tall buildings? Yeah ... kinda stupid ... kinda really stupid. The person who did these really stupid things, who is known to me , hadn't grown a brain yet. It was a very long time ago.

Samurai_Jerk wrote:How many of you did stupid shit like this when you were kids?..

Sheeeet. I do stupid shit now! Maybe it's the kids these days, but my stupid shit was generally limited to doing harm to myself or inanimate objects.

There's a fine line between malicious and stupid. Clothes-lining someone on a bike is both, especially for someone 18 - an 'adult' where I come from..

GJ

I remember my friend and I putting bleach bottles into the lake near his house then using them as target practice using 22 caliber rifles, not thinking about the bullets ricocheting when the hit the water. The guy from the other side of the lake came flying over in his boat to tell us to stop as we had almost hit his house, or so he said. That was what we did for fun in inkaka Canada, before we had video games or satellite tv.

nottu wrote:The weird thing is the knee-jerk reaction of some FGs to downplay this stupid, overt criminal act.

It's relatively normal that some to try to rationalize this due to the common feeling that gaijin are always getting shit upon by the J-justice system and the desire not to see foreigners fuck things up, and thereby make us all look a little more guilty and feel that we have to defend ourselves, "We really aren't that bad...a few bad apples...etc. Thus, the "knee-jerk" to downplay the severity. I doubt anyone really feels that it was just kids being kids and therefore should be time served and probation. Some are paranoid, had bad experiences, etc., and maybe shouldn't continuing living in Japan, or got out before they completely melted down. (Starting to off on a tangent here)
Yes, the J-news would wail "What's wrong with the younger generation of Japanese?", had it been Japanese teenagers who did this kind of stupidity, but this time it was foreigners.

Samurai_Jerk wrote:I remeber throwing apples at cars with a friend from the top of an embankment near his house. We thought it was the funniest thing ever. I don't think it's quite as bad as clotheslining a person on a motorbike and we were also a lot younger than that group. However, an apple suddenly smashing into your windshield and splattering could surprise you enough to cause an accident. Luckily that didn't happen but what a stupid fucking thing to do.

In the "CHiPs" punk episode it was a guitar from a rooftop onto a windshield by a member of the band Pain.