Body tries to roll back sea of katakana words
Yomiuri -- July 01
The National Institute for Japanese Language has proposed a list of 33 Japanese terms as replacements for 33 katakana loanwords--mostly English--that are routinely used in government documents and by the media, but that are little understood by the public.
...The institute said three of the pending loanwords--"onrain" for "online," "deitabeesu" for "database," "foramu" for "forum"--cannot be replaced because they will soon be in the language to stay, and the institute had difficulty selecting a better Japanese term...."yubikitasu" for "ubiquitous," has been delayed pending further discussion on a better term.

Twenty-four percent said they have "often" had trouble understanding loanwords, and 53.3 percent said they "sometimes had trouble" with loanwords. Sixty-one percent said loanwords should be replaced with more understandable Japanese terms

They aren't the only ones. I swear, everytime I see katakana, I end up having to pronounce the word aloud about ten times before it finally hits me as to what the word actually is.

I hate english loan words, because the proper pronunciation is locked in my brain and I always say them wrong in Japanese. I can't say botan (button) for the life of me. Or level, (rebaru)

why not go romaji directly anyway? you borrow the word, get the spelling with it...

Katakana is the only thing standing between FGs and complete illiteracy in Japanese. Let's admit it: if it weren't for katakana, we FGs would be even more fucked than we already are. The katakana are much easier to learn than kanji, and they help with listening comprehension because at least they sound a little bit like English. Also, if I don't know a particular word in Japanese, I switch to it's equivalent in katakana, and the Japanese listener usually knows what the word means.

I do agree that the katakana obscure foreign languages and are a poor substitute for truly learning a foreign language. Does anyone else find it weird that when an English word is rendered in katakana, the Japanese are led to believe that they are speaking an original Japanese word?

kamome wrote:Katakana is the only thing standing between FGs and complete illiteracy in Japanese. Let's admit it: if it weren't for katakana, we FGs would be even more fucked than we already are. The katakana are much easier to learn than kanji, and they help with listening comprehension because at least they sound a little bit like English.

Sorry, but I'll beg to disagree about being more fucked without katakana for several reasons.

First, there are FGs who are dependent solely on katakana, but they obviously aren't the Chinese or Koreans, who make up the vast majority of FGs in Japan.

Second, at the very, very basic level of Japanese learning, katakana might be a nice fallback, a respite from loads of seemingly indistinnguishable kanji. But that coin later flips the other way. I used to work for an office products manufacturer - copiers, faxes, printers, etc. Note that all of the tiny window display messages in Japanese are limited to katakana (we're talking non-GUI interfaces). Even the Japanese staff and moreso the Japanese consumers have/had trouble reading the katakana-ized displays. And I'll be one of the first to admit that I detest reading or translating magazines targeting women because they often substitute katakana for 'more difficult' kanji.

Katakana, unlike kanji, is not a picture symbol but only a wretched pronunciation guide. Sad that Meiji and Taisho-era tendencies to find kanji equivalents (look at chemistry and medicine, for instance) for foreign terms seem to have ebbed. Sad indeed...

kamome wrote:Does anyone else find it weird that when an English word is rendered in katakana, the Japanese are led to believe that they are speaking an original Japanese word?

Huh? The whole point of Katakana is to show the Japanese that the word is *not* an "orginal Japanese word." Katakana's whole purpose was/is to help keep up the wall between that which is Japanese and that which is foreign.

maraboutslim wrote:

kamome wrote:Does anyone else find it weird that when an English word is rendered in katakana, the Japanese are led to believe that they are speaking an original Japanese word?

Huh? The whole point of Katakana is to show the Japanese that the word is *not* an "orginal Japanese word." Katakana's whole purpose was/is to help keep up the wall between that which is Japanese and that which is foreign.

The whole point of katakana is not to show the Japanese that the word is foreign. The point is to render foreign words pronouncable to the Japanese, or as socratesabroad says, to acts as a wretched pronunciation guide. The Japanese themselves often do not know if a katakana word comes from a foreign language. I have had many experiences where a Japanese uses a katakana word in a sentence, followed by a question like, "do you know what xxx means?" And I respond with, "of course I do, xxx is originally an English word. That's 'katakana eigo'".

By the way, I think katakana helps even at higher levels of Japanese learning. I think socratesabroad is partially right about Chinese and Korean FG's for whom English loan words in katakana are no help at all. But that applies only to FG's like Chinese and Koreans (and Brazilians) who speak no English at all, which I assume is a much smaller percentage of total FG's. This is speculation, but aren't most FG's coming to learn Japanese with English already being a native or second-native language?

Huh???

The point is to render foreign words pronouncable to the Japanese,
....
The Japanese themselves often do not know if a katakana word comes from a foreign language.

Isn't that a contradiction Kamome? (unless I'm missing something). If the point of katakana is to render foreign words pronouncable, then can't people assume that the katakana word must be a foreign word?

The reason a Japanese person might ask you whether you know what a katakana word means is either:
(a) its not from English, but from some other foreign language (the source language is often a mystery to many people), or
(b) its a loan word that has been 'Japanised' like 'pasucon', so that its hardly recognisable to the average FG.

...your culture will adapt to service us....

Surely katakana isn't just used for foreign loan words. Why is piman (green pepper) written in katakana?
I saw a TV game show where the contestants were challenged to order a telephone pizza without using any katakana words ("Can I have with with pig meat and some smelly fish please?) No-one could do it and it was generally piman that tripped them up.

amdg wrote:Huh???

The point is to render foreign words pronouncable to the Japanese,
....
The Japanese themselves often do not know if a katakana word comes from a foreign language.

Isn't that a contradiction Kamome?

It sounds like a contradiction, but what isn't in Japan? Perhaps it's just a function of the fact that once the word is imported wholesale into Japanese as katakana, it is considered Japanized, or co-opted, by the Japanese (sounds like the Borg, doesn't it?).

By the way, Mulboyne is right that katakana isn't just for foreign loan words. It's also used for emphasis, as italics are used in English.

I have found that Katakana is often used in refering to things that are unpleasant rather than foreign. Take for example the word 'GAN' or cancer which is almost always written in Katakana whereas TABACO is almost always written in Hiragana.

Mulboyne - you said "Why is piman (green pepper) written in katakana?" Well, I don't know, but then again, I don't know every language and its history since the 1600's other than English and Japanese. Do you? Could it be that piman, the vegetable, were imported from a country other than an English speaking territory? (aside - If so, HATS OFF TO THEM!!!!- we need more vacant-eyed females! )

On the reverse side, one of my friends was recently astounded to learn that "ikura" was originally a russian word, not Japanese, even though it's often written in hiragana! Not all loan words are written in Katakana. If the Japanese invest themselves in a particular thing then it becomes Japanese. Case in point, where did kanji come from?.... Anyway, in answer to my friend's surprise we can only guess that since the Japanese identify themselves with eating raw seafood (as was partially re-enforced with western media stereotypes during the 50-80's), they took the word ikura as theirs.

dimwit - I have been harbouring the same suspicions as well. Katakana words are often used for something that is distasteful to Japanese. For example, the words "Trouble" and "problem" in katakana - are words I often see and hear in my company, referencing anything that has gone f*cked up. Now, you and I know that the same sentiments could be expressed equally well, if not better, in Japanese, yet they always choose to use "turaburu" or "puroburem" as akward nouns when talking about what has just f*cked up. Did they always use that or is it just since I've joined the company?

By the way, Mulboyne is NOT right, in my opinion (Mulboyne please give us some examples of what you mean when you say that katakana isn't just used for foreign loan words. Other than otonomopeia, of course. )

Yes, katakana can be used for emphasis, often for sounds, but its not comparable to the way that italics are used in English. They are two completely different systems. Emphasis in written Japanese is done by placing a 'dot' over each character, not by using katakana.


Now lets roll up the sleeves and talk about where the hell English words came from, like beef, apple, judge etc, .... are they still considered "English" even though we stole them from the French and adapted them to service us 1000 years ago?


....resistance is futile...
(be more like pongi, and enjoy yourself):D

I think you've just given us a variation of the "What did the Romans ever do for us?" form of argument.

I'm not familiar with that argument. Actually, I was just wondering if you had examples of where katakana isn't just used for foreign loan words or onomatopeia.

amdg wrote: Actually, I was just wondering if you had examples of where katakana isn't just used for foreign loan words or onomatopeia.

He doesn't because there aren't any. Yes, it is used in manga occasionally even for perfectly good japanese words that should be kanji or hiragana. Yes it is used on screens of appliances that can't render kanji. But neither of these cases is proper Japanese - i.e. when one is following the rules of the language, these words wouldn't be written in katakana.

So, all proper katakana words have foreign origin. Piman is from the French word "piment". Many early loan words came from dutch (e.g. biiru, kaban, pisutoru) and portugese (e.g. tabako, tempura, pan), for obvious historical reasons.

Here's a tip in logic: Just because all katakana words are loan words, this does not mean that all loan words are written in katakana. Before the 20th century, they were almost always written in kanji. Some of those are now written in katakana though.

kamome wrote:The whole point of katakana is not to show the Japanese that the word is foreign. The point is to render foreign words pronouncable to the Japanese, or as socratesabroad says, to acts as a wretched pronunciation guide.

Interestingly, it is true that katakana is a pronunciation guide, in orgin. It was developed (from a certain set of chinese characters) by buddhist monks in the 9th century to provide pronunciations (furigana) for chinese characters. In the early days it was mainly used by men, and women used hiragana in their writing.

But if all modern Japanese intended to do by katakana was render a word pronouncable, they could just used hiragana. But using katakana also points out that the words is foreign. And we all know how important it is to the Japanese to separate true Japenese stuff/people, from that from the outside.

amdg, you're wrong to say that katakana do not function as italics in Japanese.

OK, after speaking to a few people I'm willing to concede you may be right. Live and learn!

Mulboyne wrote:... It is obviously often a pronunciation guide. I'm always struck by the way that Japanese renderings of European city names are always close to native pronunciation whereas English tends to anglicize a name - hence Paris, Moscow, Vienna ...

This is a great point. My Japanese-English electronic dictionary actually has many "useful phrases" for other languages like French, German, Spanish and Italian, which I showed to a few friends familiar with these languages. Only by reading the katakana sentences was I able to come close to pronouncing some words correctly. Very amusing. And yes, I was bored at the time.


BTW, here's an interesting site on the origins of some loan words.

I'm a little conflicted on this subject.

On one hand, I think Japanese people really, really, need to stop taking loanwords for things that are easily translated. Example: a movie such as "Lord of the Rings". In China, I believe they translated it to something like "Muo Jie" which means something along the line of magical ring, they don't feel the need to call it "lo er du a bu sa ring". In Europe, everyone uses the same alphabet but no one just translates the movie phonetically, but actually translates it. Why can't Japanese people do the same? Something such as name, however, does deserve to be converted into Katakana because there is no direct translation.

On the other hand, there are 283748327 fewer words I have to learn or I can play off that I know because of the converted loanwords. So I don't really know what to say. I think I'd be even more fucked if it weren't for loan words.

That's my 0.02

MOD EDIT: Double post.

voltage wrote: In Europe, everyone uses the same alphabet

fyi...
greek
norwegian
danish
german
swedish
spanish
dutch
polish
czech
french
bosnian
slovakian
croatian
estonian
hungarian
icelandic


off the top of my head.

true some of the above are variants in the roman alphabet, but everyone in europe is not using the same alphabet by far.

i prety sure your above comment wasn't the main point of your email - i just cringed when i heard it - this is just a friendly educational post

no harm or belittlement intended.

jumpsuit