An amazing japanese dj, 2002 world champion : http://www.dmcworld.com/technics/archive/2002/video/2002dj1-100k.wvx
Now among the ninjas & releasing a furious&various ninja mix : http://www.ninjatune.net/ninja/release.php?id=1045

Docteur G wrote:dj, 2002 world champion

umm, just out of curiousity how exactly does a dj get to be a 'world champion'?

Many years of training&a strong will.....

The goal is to show several different tricks including scratching, pass pass or beat juggling through many kind of tunes into a 6 minutes set, which have to be executed only with SL 1200 Technics turntables x 2 + SH Technics mixer.

All guys are judged by ex-champions or world recognized turntablists.
The winner will be the most original & or technical (according to judges).

I would just suggest to get back to http://www.dmcworld.com and try some videos to see&hear what about, it often talks itself.

I didn't know you could get an award for playing records of other people's music.

Just think what they could have done with all those "years of training" if they had learned to play a real musical instrument.

Charles wrote:I didn't know you could get an award for playing records of other people's music.

Just think what they could have done with all those "years of training" if they had learned to play a real musical instrument.

Oh the endless controversy of 'what is music'; those who can criticized by those who can't..

I think DJing has evolved into something very respectable; sure they use other people's sounds, but the sounds are conducted in a way the originators never dreamed of, or had the technology to experiment with. It's an evolution process.. It's only natural.. to become less natural..

GJ

Hello Charles,
It's have been called a sub-culture in late 70'&early 80' because it's have been done by suburban people who i guess can not learn piano or whatever instruments, the facts are for exemple, the most part of sounds these days in ads&broadcasts on tvs, radios, movies & since nearly 10 years, comes from that culture of mixing&re-mixing that you can't hear cause you don't know & de facto can't understand.
Generations of hard&software tools (that you may be use) in modern music production today are inspired straight from that breakbeaters.
May i suggest you to see the documentary by Doug Pray called Scratch released in 2001.

[quote="GuyJean"]Oh the endless controversy of 'what is music']
You have that quite backwards. I play the piano, cello, and guitar. A DJ just plays records.

Docteur G wrote:May i suggest you to see the documentary by Doug Pray called Scratch released in 2001.

I would rather have all my fingers broken and my eardrums punctured. I used to run a club and I know far more about the whole scene than you realize. There is an old saying, "nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the public." And that especially applies to DJ "music." It is noise by people who are musically untalented and untrained, sold to people who are musically uneducated and who have no taste.

Charles wrote:It is noise by people who are musically untalented and untrained, sold to people who are musically uneducated and who have no taste.

I do respects musicians as i often work with too, but turntablists as well&as every domain, there's some good&bad.
I could listen to the famous Lalo Schiffrin&Bonobo(http://www.tru-thoughts.co.uk)who plays keyboards, cords, sitar & ...turntables!?, but regarding the audience, i would have more respect, who can be so sure of its taste or education?

Charles wrote:

Docteur G wrote:May i suggest you to see the documentary by Doug Pray called Scratch released in 2001.

I would rather have all my fingers broken and my eardrums punctured. I used to run a club and I know far more about the whole scene than you realize. There is an old saying, "nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the public." And that especially applies to DJ "music." It is noise by people who are musically untalented and untrained, sold to people who are musically uneducated and who have no taste.

So where did you run this gay bar at?

Charles wrote:

GuyJean wrote:Oh the endless controversy of 'what is music']
You have that quite backwards. I play the piano, cello, and guitar. A DJ just plays records.

Yeah, but can you 'scratch'? So, you must have composed original material since you're a true musician.. If you haven't, you're just playing what other people have written. How hard is that?

A DJ twists, caresses, squeezes, chokes, and massages records. They make Jazz and Blues, Rap.. Rum and Coke, a Cuba Libre, etc.. The end product is original and distinct.. I think many 'musicians' appreciate what DJs do to their masterpieces..

GJ

Do you know what's hard?

Do do all that scratching within the original beat of the music. And then if you're doing it in a club, you have go from one song to another by tweaking the speeds of the two records until they match and can flow one into the other.

As for dj'ing being 'music-making', well I honestly have no opinion since I have no musical ability, much less training.

I was more curious about how one is crowned a 'world champion.' In a sporting event, you traditionally have a winner based on quantifiable indices like points, time/speed, and distance.
But I guess if synchronized swimming can have a world champion then so can dj'ing.

Socratesabroad wrote:I guess if synchronized swimming can have a world champion then so can dj'ing.

GJ

American Oyaji wrote:Do you know what's hard?

Do do all that scratching within the original beat of the music. And then if you're doing it in a club, you have go from one song to another by tweaking the speeds of the two records until they match and can flow one into the other.

Any computer DJ software app can match beats automatically. Not much of a skill, really.
A DJ pushes a few buttons and diddles around a couple of turntables using 2 fingertips. Compare that to a pianist who must coordinate the control of 88 keys and 3 foot pedals, using 10 fingers and his toes, continuously hitting multiple keys simultaneously, modulating key pressure and sustain, keeping track of tempo, key signature, etc. Performing music on a real instrument is in a whole different league than a DJ playing records on a turntable. A DJ could be replaced with an iPod. A musician's performance is the raw material that people pay money to put into their iPods.

GuyJean wrote:So, you must have composed original material since you're a true musician.. If you haven't, you're just playing what other people have written. How hard is that?

Why yes, I have composed original material. But it can be quite challenging to play existing compositions. Most musicians consider this as training. Try learning something really elaborate, like a 12-tone polyrhythmic piece by Charles Ives, and you have acquired a whole new set of musical skills, both in performance and composition.

GuyJean wrote:A DJ twists, caresses, squeezes, chokes, and massages records. They make Jazz and Blues, Rap.. Rum and Coke, a Cuba Libre, etc.. The end product is original and distinct.. I think many 'musicians' appreciate what DJs do to their masterpieces..

There is a mathematical theorem that proved that any randomly crumpled sheet of paper is an original, distinct topological deformation. But it still belongs in a garbage can.

rebuto wrote:Many classically-trained musicians have tried scratching and changed their minds about the whole thing overnight.

Did you actually think I'd believe your made-up story about these fictitious musicians?

As for DJing being music making, I am in the same boat as Socratesabroad -- no opinion.

However, for anyone trying to argue a point with Charles -- give up. He already knows everything about everything, if you get what I mean. Occasionally he has interesting things to say, but most of the time he is best ignored.

Charles, if you watch the DMC championships, you will be amazed at the technical ability those DJs have. No it's not like playing the piano, but they are creating original music. It's just through a different medium. And to create turntablist music, you still have to understand music theory, especially with respect to tempo and pitch. An interesting question is whether DJ's are creating "notes". A DJ can't produce a B-flat unless he has a record that contains an instrument emitting a B-flat. I suppose if he knew his records REALLY well, he could put together true music by juggling multiple records that each contained the notes he wanted to play.

In reality that would be too difficult, so DJ's are restricted to creating rythmatic, repetitive music rather than melodic music.

Charles wrote: A DJ could be replaced with an iPod. A musician's performance is the raw material that people pay money to put into their iPods.

Charles,

Do you discount the commentary, the show, the rest of the performance that a DJ puts on for entertainment in your dismissal of their value?

DJ's have their own followings and fans that will follow them anywhere when on tour. Look back at the Wolfman Jack phenomenon. Maybe he wasn't yours, or anybody elses, idea of a musician, but he made a lot of people a lot of money and even in death, he is still revered by his fans.

I don't think you can replace them with ipods, but it does gives me a hint why you are no longer in the club business!

Chuck, you also have to consider something else.

Culture.

Some cultures value music of tones and pitch and some value percussive rythms and tempos.


It's all about what people like. And people like it Chuck so let it alone.

American Oyaji wrote:Chuck, you also have to consider something else.

Culture.

Some cultures value music of tones and pitch and some value percussive rythms and tempos.


It's all about what people like. And people like it Chuck so let it alone.

There's an interesting quote from a musicologist, I wish I remembered who, but I do remember the quote verbatim, "Music is tone plus noise, and every generation picks its favorite noise."
However, there is still a problem. People don't like this music because it's a sound they like, they listen to it because it's the flavor of the week. People are not choosing this music, they are being sold on it. Believe me I know, my sister is a music promoter and I have heard this all to death. One week the uberhipsters are promoting DJ mixes of 80s Italian disco, the next week they're trying to revive Duran Duran, the week after that it will be electropop some other ridiculous bullshit they're trying to foist on the public sensibilities. And people lap it up like little puppy dogs, consuming whatever the self-appointed tastemakers feed them.
Come on people, don't you understand what is happening? Ever since the 80s when the music industry got taken over by financiers, they've been searching for a way to eliminate those pesky, quirky musicians that eat into corporate profits, they want people to listen to computer generated crap and DJ's remixing old rubbish from their back catalog, stuff they've already paid for. And people are falling for it.
The only good part of this whole scene is that in a few months, the flavor-of-the-week is so stale, it will never ever be heard of again. People will hate it and be embarassed they ever listened to such crap. Maybe we could just cut to the chase and get to the point where everyone hates it, skipping right over the part where people loved it.

Charles wrote:There's an interesting quote from a musicologist, I wish I remembered who, but I do remember the quote verbatim, "Music is tone plus noise, and every generation picks its favorite noise."
However, there is still a problem. People don't like this music because it's a sound they like, they listen to it because it's the flavor of the week. People are not choosing this music, they are being sold on it. Believe me I know, my sister is a music promoter and I have heard this all to death. One week the uberhipsters are promoting DJ mixes of 80s Italian disco, the next week they're trying to revive Duran Duran, the week after that it will be electropop some other ridiculous bullshit they're trying to foist on the public sensibilities. And people lap it up like little puppy dogs, consuming whatever the self-appointed tastemakers feed them.
Come on people, don't you understand what is happening? Ever since the 80s when the music industry got taken over by financiers, they've been searching for a way to eliminate those pesky, quirky musicians that eat into corporate profits, they want people to listen to computer generated crap and DJ's remixing old rubbish from their back catalog, stuff they've already paid for. And people are falling for it.
The only good part of this whole scene is that in a few months, the flavor-of-the-week is so stale, it will never ever be heard of again. People will hate it and be embarassed they ever listened to such crap. Maybe we could just cut to the chase and get to the point where everyone hates it, skipping right over the part where people loved it.

And how is this in any way different than what goes on in the rest of society? This is not a recent phenomenon that magically appeared in the 80s. It has been going on throughout society for centuries at least, probably millennia.

Charles, you haven't responded to my point about DJ's having technique and just expressing it through a different medium. You are focusing on the wrong thing--the debate is whether DJ's are bona-fide musicians, not whether a particular genre of pop music is valid as real music.

kamome wrote:Charles, you haven't responded to my point about DJ's having technique and just expressing it through a different medium. You are focusing on the wrong thing--the debate is whether DJ's are bona-fide musicians, not whether a particular genre of pop music is valid as real music.

The problem is that they use technical skills to express themselves through the medium of other people's musical performances. That makes them music production engineers, at best, not musicians.
There's a good reason why the guys holding the musical instruments are up on stage, while the engineer running the soundboard is in the back of the room, in the dark, unnoticed. The DJ scene is just a way for those frustrated nonmusician techs to grab center stage for themselves.

Charles wrote:There's a good reason why the guys holding the musical instruments are up on stage, while the engineer running the soundboard is in the back of the room, in the dark, unnoticed. The DJ scene is just a way for those frustrated nonmusician techs to grab center stage for themselves.

Your point of view is strong, but wrong. No one would or could replace a true band or ensemble. I do run through festivals, many times djs plays in soundtower control next to the engineer, there's some shinin' as rockstars, it's the audience wish, i do not like "usurpaters" too&there's a lot of them in music industry whatever they play.
A friend of mine is sound engineer for 2 rooms (300places&500places) he knows how to play the guitar&keyboards but he doesn't want to get on stage for live (except while preparing events by the day).
Also i'm talking about people who work for indies structures, the goal's not money or fame for everybody, many times the honest turntablist do this as a dedication to records&artists he likes, and too many times it gives a second life to a lot of masterpieces(hearing©rights).
Why can't you consider the both sides of the stuff ?

There is another point.

There are some people who have a musical bent, but no way to express it.

I mean their school has no instruments for them to learn or practice on and they don't have the money for lessons.

So if you want to make music and don't have a way to learn "traditional" music, what does one do?

The comment about "packaged" music while valid, doesn't apply to DJs because just about all DJs start off at small venues. If they are good, they rise, if they aren't, you never hear about them.

American Oyaji wrote:There is another point.

There are some people who have a musical bent, but no way to express it.

I mean their school has no instruments for them to learn or practice on and they don't have the money for lessons.

So if you want to make music and don't have a way to learn "traditional" music, what does one do?

Ridiculous. Singing is free. You can buy a harmonica for $4, about the price of a pack of cigarettes. A cheap guitar costs less than a turntable. Many classically trained musicians started out as self-taught.
But you do raise a good point. The lack of decent school music programs is undoubtedly responsible (in part) for the rise of popularity of these new non-musical recordings. Not every kid will become a musician, but they all need to develop their musical sensibilities.

American Oyaji wrote:The comment about "packaged" music while valid, doesn't apply to DJs because just about all DJs start off at small venues. If they are good, they rise, if they aren't, you never hear about them.

They must all suck because I never heard about any of them.