Korean permanent residents of Japan have been mobilizing recently to push for a change in government policy. This is nothing to do with the introduction of fingerprinting at immigration which doesn't affect this group. Instead, they are looking for the right to vote in local government elections. The photo above shows around 5,000 gathering in Hibiya last week under the auspices of some of the largest zainichi Korean organizations. This Japanese coverage in JanJan suggests that the proposal has some support among members of the main political parties. In 1995, the Supreme Court ruled that denying suffrage to permanent residents was not unconstitutional and there have been many lobbying efforts since then to press for a change in the law. Korea itself enfranchised permanent residents in 2005. Controversially, however, some Korean permanent residents have been arguing that the franchise should be extended initially only to them and not to any other permanent residents. At a symposium in Tottori which was also held last week, this proposal was floated explicitly. Some believe that this would have a greater chance of winning Diet approval and pave the way for an extension of further rights. Opponents believe that if the vote is right in principle then it should be granted to all who qualify.

I think this is fucking stupid. These days, Zainichi Koreans can get Japanese citizenship. If they want the right to vote they should become citizens of Japan.

A guy I know thinks only people who earn over 4,000 man a year should be able to vote.

That's fucking ridiculous. Only people who wear brown shoes shoeld be entitled to vote.

Samurai_Jerk wrote:I think this is fucking stupid. These days, Zainichi Koreans can get Japanese citizenship. If they want the right to vote they should become citizens of Japan.

There are still a number of idiots who don't know or understand this fact. And, to some Zainichi Korean groups seem to be encouraging this misunderstanding (that they cannot naturalize).

Or, with only a singular example of citizenship as it is done back in the US, other declare Japan's policy of not granting citizenship to those people because they were simply born here unfair. This comparative study using OECD countries indicates that it's not the case: http://www.japanreview.net/essays_measuring_citizenship.htm

By all counts, it's not so much equitable treatment these groups are seeking -- rather, they are looking for special treatment. And, for that, they can all go to Hell.

TennoChinko wrote:There are still a number of idiots who don't know or understand this fact. And, to some Zainichi Korean groups seem to be encouraging this misunderstanding (that they cannot naturalize).

I think you are misunderestimating some of the idiots. Take me for example. I am perfectly aware the Zainichi residents can naturalize. I am also aware, though, that Japan's laws against dual-citizenship puts Japan into a fairly small minority of developed nations. Naturalizing in Japan is quite a different proposition than naturalizing in the U.S., for example.

So Zainichi residents have to renounce Korean citizenship and give up rights in Korea in order to attain Japanese citizenship. Immigrants in most other countries do not face this dilemma. It's just a hunch, but I suspect a vast majority of Zainichi Koreans would naturalize instantly if Japan allowed dual citizenship like most countries.

That being said, I am not sure I understand why a person born and raised in Japan would be so concerned about losing citizenship in a country they've never lived in. But still, I wanted to point out that I think the issue is more complicated than you've made it out to be.

They are Koreans that's who they are. Why would they want Japanese citizenship over their Korean one ? To join Japanese homogeneous society ? Or maybe its only because their fathers/mothers were taken to Japan to work as slaves during WW2 and many of their roots lie in the annexation. Out of the half a million Koreans in Japan, a lot of started to save up and return to the ancestral homeland - not all can afford and some have built up a life here and like what they have built. But our pure Borg like structure in Japan denies them their diversity just as the Saudi ethnic fanatics do in their country.

omae mona wrote:I think you are misunderestimating some of the idiots. Take me for example. I am perfectly aware the Zainichi residents can naturalize. I am also aware, though, that Japan's laws against dual-citizenship puts Japan into a fairly small minority of developed nations. Naturalizing in Japan is quite a different proposition than naturalizing in the U.S., for example.

So Zainichi residents have to renounce Korean citizenship and give up rights in Korea in order to attain Japanese citizenship. Immigrants in most other countries do not face this dilemma. It's just a hunch, but I suspect a vast majority of Zainichi Koreans would naturalize instantly if Japan allowed dual citizenship like most countries.

That being said, I am not sure I understand why a person born and raised in Japan would be so concerned about losing citizenship in a country they've never lived in. But still, I wanted to point out that I think the issue is more complicated than you've made it out to be.

The non-recognition of dual nationality (by Japan) is not as draconian as it sounds. There are plenty who continue to hold US or UK passports after naturalizing. To confirm to the letter of the law, the British Embassy provides you with a form that allows one to show 'proof of renunciation' and then measures for you to be reinstated as a British subject.

I don't know what 'rights' a Zainichi Korean would give up. If South Korean, male, and under the age of 35 - they certainly don't appear to 'exercise' any of them. If they did, they would be obliged to serve in the military. And as a matter of fact, almost all of them do not. Another indication the S Korean government - who is quite zealous about enforcing conscription - does not consider them 'full' Korean citizens.

Another 'myth' is the claim that Zainichi Koreans were brought forcibly over to Japan as 'slaves'. While no doubt the conditions may have been shit, they were better than the ones on the Korean peninsula - the majority came over assuming Japan would yield a better economic opportunity. Carpetbaggers who guessed wrong.

No doubt - the temptation to compare themselves to African-American slaves is high but untrue.

Very much like the aims of the Buraku Liberation League - the political aims the Zainichi Koreans are to insist on special treatment (not equal) and that means NOT naturalizing or assimilating in any way. Deceiving others with claims that they are wholly prevented from doing so etc. is an effective means of maintaining that facade.

omae mona wrote:So Zainichi residents have to renounce Korean citizenship and give up rights in Korea in order to attain Japanese citizenship.

As Chinko touched on, this law in Japan isn't a problem. After all, Japan doesn't have any jurisdiction over what other countries do. So they may ask you to renounce your citizenship in your other country, but they have no say in whether that country continues to consider you a citizen or not. Same goes for the USA and its current policies against dual citizenship.

The only tricky part is when travelling with both passports. Say one lives in the usa but is also a japanese citizen. When leaving the usa, you're going to want to show your u.s. passport. If you show your japanese passport, they'll want to see stamps in it allowing you to be in the usa, which of course you don't have. So you have to act as if you are just a u.s. citizen. But then when you arrive in japan, you will have to show that passport as well. Fine and dandy as long as you don't plan to stay more than 90 days. You get a tourist visa like everyone else and pretend to be a u.s. citizen only while in japan.

But what if you want to stay six months? You can of course stay as long as you'd like since you are a japanese citizen. but what happens when you go to leave japan to go back to the usa? if you show them your usa passport, you'll get busted for overstaying. if you show your japanese passport, they'll stamp it as you leave. Then you'll get back to the usa and what do you do? You break out your usa passport and they wonder where you've been because there isn't a stamp showing you left japan... and then next time you go to japan, you're even further mixed up between the two passports...

I don't know if i'm explaining it right, but let's just say it gets sketchy. It's already hard enough to explain with my kids and they are still young enough to be legally allowed to hold both passports!

maraboutslim wrote:The only tricky part is when travelling with both passports.

The major thing about using both passports is which one you use as Slim mentions. However, if you enter the US with anything but a US Passport, that will be taken as a declaration of renouncement of citizenship if you are over the age of 21.

No country wants to place one of their own legal citizens in a position where they must take away his/her citizenship or cause them to renounce the same. This goes for Japan, or the US. A duo national lad I know quite well, who is over 21, recently went to Europe with a sports team representing Japan (Nihon daihyou). His US passport had expired and he had asked me for assistance. We went to the Embassy and US Citizen affairs accepted his application for his new passport, checking his name with his Japanese and old US passport. The councilor advised him if the team passed through the US going or coming from Europe and Japan, that he must use his US passport. He stated that a use of the Japanese passport to enter or transit the US would be held as a statement of citizenship. He even said that prior to the crack downs following 9-ll, that it probably would not have mattered as much, but now because all entries, exits and transits are computerized for instant comparison in the future, the use of the J-passport would be noted and if you ever tried to then enter the US on your US passport, it could be (and probably would be) confiscated.

I don't know how this would stand the test in court, but this is the guy who issues the passports and recognizes citizenship of newborns, etc., so I figure he had to be pretty close.

The Japanese are in a way, the same. As long as you enter and exit on the J-passport, they could care less. It would only come into play if there was an offense of some sort, or if you tried to use the second country passport in the same manner.

Recently, the duo national (Iran-Japan) Yu Darvish, star pitcher for Nippon Ham officially denounced his Iranian citizenship to be a "single country" Japanese National. The Japanese press played this big as "Darvish becomes Japanese"! Well, he was already Japanese.

When I asked a member of the Olympic baseball committee (who my company deals with on other matters), he told me that internal rules set by the Olympic committee for the All Japan Olympic Baseball Federation required Darivish to do this. I seriously doubt that this could stem from a legal requirement, but be more of the Japanese emplimented administrative requirements for "Nippon". There have been several incidents concerning the Japan Olympic members in the past that have come under fire, such as recognition of pre-war Koreans, etc. It is my understanding that the Olympic Committee International is not particularly concerned if a person is a duo National, or not, as long as one of the two countries of the nationalities, cedes the right (in writing) of the individual to represent the other country. This goes for newly nationalized citizens as well. So, while this rule may be in effect by the Baseball Committee, I doubt if you could find it set out anywhere in Japanese law.

In other words, since Iran has no baseball, Darvish could have easily obtained a letter of consent to represent Japan from the Iranian government and he could have retained his duo nationality.

ah, thanks for the info. can you think of any way in which secret dual-citizens can travel back and forth between the u.s. and japan and not have this trouble? can they travel on their u.s. passport and when leaving japan after overstaying the tourist visa stamped within can they simply flash their japanese passport and claim it's no violation because they are actually japanese, too? or will japan trip out on that? what if they use their japanese passport when leaving but show their u.s. passport upon arrival in the u.s. even if that passport has no info added to it since they left the u.s. will the usa trip on that?

From what I understand from gboothe, when you are at the US immigration, use US passport, at Japan Immigration use Japanese passport (no matter you are in, out or just on transit). Both countries are welcoming you home when you enter and they don't check where have you been. Is that right, gboothe? One example (even though I am no American /Japanese), when I am back in my country, I don't need to see the officer at the counter, but just scan my passport at the gate's machine.

With this method, you won't have any over-staying your tourist visa's issue.

I don't know why so many people seem to think the US doesn't allow dual citizenship. This isn't true.

US Dept of State on dual citizenship

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

maraboutslim wrote:As Chinko touched on, this law in Japan isn't a problem. After all, Japan doesn't have any jurisdiction over what other countries do. So they may ask you to renounce your citizenship in your other country, but they have no say in whether that country continues to consider you a citizen or not.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you claiming that after formally renouncing Korean citizenship, the Korean government ignores that and still treats the person as a citizen?

Same goes for the USA and its current policies against dual citizenship.

As samurai_jerk pointed out in a reply before mine, there appear to be no such policies. Do you have any references?

The only tricky part is when travelling with both passports. Say one lives in the usa but is also a japanese citizen. When leaving the usa, you're going to want to show your u.s. passport. If you show your japanese passport, they'll want to see stamps in it allowing you to be in the usa, which of course you don't have. So you have to act as if you are just a u.s. citizen. But then when you arrive in japan, you will have to show that passport as well. Fine and dandy as long as you don't plan to stay more than 90 days. You get a tourist visa like everyone else and pretend to be a u.s. citizen only while in japan.
..
I don't know if i'm explaining it right, but let's just say it gets sketchy. It's already hard enough to explain with my kids and they are still young enough to be legally allowed to hold both passports!

As a few people posted above, this is outright wrong. Since I have children who have both passports (legal since they are under 20) and travelled between both countries this year, I am quite certain, unless the policies have changed in the last few months. US passport while entering the US, Japan passport while entering (or leaving) Japan.

I'm assuming you are just imagining this issue and haven't actually travelled with your kids. Otherwise you got some really strange immigration officers at the port of entry, when you did travel!

Takechanpoo wrote:Hey dickhead, study more.
Most of zainichi korean's first generation were most discriminated class called [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baekjeong]白] in Korea and inhabitants in Jeju Island who too had been discriminated in Korea society. So most of them came to Japan to escape from discrimination or political oppression in post war confusion period(needless to say after independence from Japan). It is just a myth that most of zainichi Korean were slaves kiddnapped by J-army. Originally this myth was made by J-leftist and zainichi Korean. Real poor zainichi Korean who were really kidnapped are only some part of them. And even most of them went home by J-government's Korean return project in 1950's~80's. Namely the remains themself chose to live in Japan.
I really got boring of fucking foolish gaijins who think themself are supporter of socially vulnerables in Japan and dont know how to doubt themself. Read not only books written in English but also ones written in Japanese. If you dudes have read only written-in-English books about Japan history, never pretend as if you gaijin dudes know all of japan. fuck you.

By your same logic Take, if you have never read Korean-language books about this, then you should never pretend you know all about the issue.

Takechanpoo wrote: fuck you.

I love it when you talk dirty Take.

I hate to defend Take and Tenno here, but a lot of the Zainichi Koreans chose to come to Japan (I don't know percentages of those vs. slaves, though). The same way a lot of people from the Commonwealth immigrated to the UK. And at this point Zainichi Koreans can get Japanese citizenship if they want it. I know several people that have made that choice. Japan might be different from your home country, but it is not unusual in not allowing dual citizenship. Plus, they have no way of forcing you to give up your non-Japanese citizenship. I know two guys over 50 that have Japanese and US citizenship. Debito used to have dual citizenship but chose to give up his US citizenship. I know a guy who works for one of the government ministries that has both US and Japanese citizenship.

Why should the Japanese government let people who don't want to be citizens vote? How many countries around the world allow non-Citizens to vote? Japan is not being unreasonable and is not outside of the world standard here.

Well said Sammy

Samurai_Jerk wrote:I hate to defend Take and Tenno here, but a lot of the Zainichi Koreans chose to come to Japan (I don't know percentages of those vs. slaves, though).

Yes. Not all though. But you want to treat them all the same, because?
The actual breakdown between those forced to come and those that came voluntarily is elusive. Some self-reporting puts it at something like 15% conscripted. But part of the problem is in how you define “]And at this point Zainichi Koreans can get Japanese citizenship if they want it. [/QUOTE]
Yes, now they can. Only recently in the scheme of things, but its by no means automatic and some people still get refused.

Why should the Japanese government let people who don't want to be citizens vote?

Fair enough, but an equally valid question is why shouldn’t they? They are a special case, whether people care to recognise that or not, so why not make a special case exception? If it comes down to a question of loyalties, out of all the Zainichi I know, which is a lot, not a single one of them would side against Japan in any national conflict. Although I believe that the “what other countries do” argument is irrelevant, enough people have brought this issue up (lord knows why, sheeple perhaps?) - some countries do allow residents to vote.

What I don’t understand though is how quickly pussies come out with the “fuck them” comments. Fortunately for everyone, not a single one of you (except perhaps Take) has any say in the matter. So keep flapping your gums, I'm sure you'll get somewhere .

Samurai_Jerk wrote:Japan might be different from your home country, but it is not unusual in not allowing dual citizenship.

"Unusual" is a subjective term, but it's safe to say Japan is in the minority, at 25% of G8 countries (see table 1 at http://www.japanreview.net/essays_measuring_citizenship.htm).

Plus, they have no way of forcing you to give up your non-Japanese citizenship.

Yes, but they absolutely do have a way of forcing you to give up your Japanese citizenship. For details of the Nationality Act of 1950 explained in English, see page 102 of this document.

I know two guys over 50 that have Japanese and US citizenship.

I know people over 22 that hold both passports too. The fact that they haven't gotten busted doesn't mean it is legal.

Debito used to have dual citizenship but chose to give up his US citizenship.

Yes. But he makes it very clear [url=http:///www.debito.org/deamericanize.html]on his web site[/url] that this was not actually legal in Japan, and he gave up his US citizenship when he began to fear he was going to be busted.

Why should the Japanese government let people who don't want to be citizens vote? How many countries around the world allow non-Citizens to vote? Japan is not being unreasonable and is not outside of the world standard here.

I agree with you. Personally, I think the people complaining should be pushing for recognition of dual citizenship, rather than allowing non-citizens to vote.

By the way, I learned that in the case of the Zainichi Koreans, Japanese recognition of dual citizenship would not solve the problem. South Korea does not recognize it either.

omae mona wrote:.....I know people over 22 that hold both passports too. The fact that they haven't gotten busted doesn't mean it is legal.....

That is exactly the point, Omae mona. How are they going to be busted? As I mentioned, if there is not a major offense, a major demonstration of declaration of citizenship in one of the two countries, the matter of duo nationality will not be questioned or lead to a "bust". If the immigration officer sees two passports and he sees you legally entering Japan on your Japanese passport, he is only allowed to determine if the Japanese passport is valid, he has no authority beyond that.

The same goes with the US. Only a designated member of the Department of State is authorized to seize your US passport and they can only do that with cause. Possessing the passport of another country is not cause. They could cause you to declare, but they cannot seize the other country's passport.

omae mona wrote:I'm assuming you are just imagining this issue and haven't actually travelled with your kids. Otherwise you got some really strange immigration officers at the port of entry, when you did travel!

I'm not imagining it. My kids have gone back and forth at least a dozen times. Some when we were living in japan and some since we've been living here. Usual stay has been less than 3 months, but my daughter went for about 6 months before. Anyway, it's always a hassle at both ticket counter and immigration. They always ask for and inspect both passports. For one thing, only one of the passports is going to match the name on the plane tickets/boarding pass. So they'll have a mismatch leaving either country if they try to switch passports (i.e. u.s. passport matches tickets, but if you use japanese passport in japan when leaving, it won't match). So both passports have to come out so they can sort it all out.


Gboothe, I've heard needing to register for the military draft in the u.s. can be a complication for those with dual citizenship. Any info regarding that?

maraboutslim wrote:I'm not imagining it. My kids have gone back and forth at least a dozen times. Some when we were living in japan and some since we've been living here. Usual stay has been less than 3 months, but my daughter went for about 6 months before. Anyway, it's always a hassle at both ticket counter and immigration. They always ask for and inspect both passports. For one thing, only one of the passports is going to match the name on the plane tickets/boarding pass. So they'll have a mismatch leaving either country if they try to switch passports (i.e. u.s. passport matches tickets, but if you use japanese passport in japan when leaving, it won't match). So both passports have to come out so they can sort it all out.

Slim, they must have you on the watch list, or you just got Buzzard's Luck. All of my kids (six duo nationals and duo passport holders) are frequent travelers between the US and Japan. Four of them went through HS in the US and traveled back to Japan at least two or three times a year. The only time there was ever a check was at the ticket counter, assuring the ticket name with the passport and that was only a formality, because it is needed to the US and that is done even if you only have one passport. Immigrations has never posed a problem in either country.

Yeah Buraku,
and Chinko's even got it all wrong - there is no united "political aim" of the Zainichi - the minute anyone says anything like that I know they're full of shit. It's as bogus as saying "Foreigners all think [blah blah blah]". In fact, the more militant Zainichi groups pressure people NOT to give Zainichi the vote, as they think it would be a force for greater assimilation with Japanese - which they don't want.

amdg wrote:there is no united "political aim" of the Zainichi. In fact, the more militant Zainichi groups pressure people NOT to give Zainichi the vote, as they think it would be a force for greater assimilation with Japanese - which they don't want.

Hey dude,
the political organization which is most positive for gaijin suffrage is New Koumeito Party(aka Soka gakkai). And almost all of Soka's exectives are zainichi Korean or ex-ones.

maraboutslim wrote:I'm not imagining it. My kids have gone back and forth at least a dozen times. Some when we were living in japan and some since we've been living here. Usual stay has been less than 3 months, but my daughter went for about 6 months before. Anyway, it's always a hassle at both ticket counter and immigration. They always ask for and inspect both passports. For one thing, only one of the passports is going to match the name on the plane tickets/boarding pass. So they'll have a mismatch leaving either country if they try to switch passports (i.e. u.s. passport matches tickets, but if you use japanese passport in japan when leaving, it won't match). So both passports have to come out so they can sort it all out.

Why is immigration checking your kids tickets?? I've never had to show a ticket to immigration.

Buraku wrote:the [font="Arial Black"]majority[/font] of Japanese refuse to marry someone of 'buraku' origin

majority?
huh?
I certainly understand you dude have not had communication with J-people much from this one sentence. Although I dont know about dicrimination for Dowa people to get job, at least there are almost no discrimination in East Japan about marriage with Dowa people. Except for elite clan, the discrimination against Dowa people mostly exists in West Japan only. You dude's brain is full of dellusion.