am seriously thinking of buying a nice house when we get back, but so many people say that buying isnt such a good thing, that you could sell the land afterwards, but the house is worthless, is this true?

i have several options open re funding (could rent out or sell my property here) and want to get whats left of my life back on track..

any advice would be nice =^^=

I think you'd be better off buying a rope. If you know what I mean.

Are you asking us if house prices are going up?

Maybe property prices have finished their worst declines but I don't think anyone posting here has the foresight to know if residential property prices are set to rise. I have a friend who believes prices will double and has already bought a place. Other friends of mine believe that prices are still too high relative to the quality of the buildings. And you'll always find people who will never buy because of the earthquake risk.

For that reason, I would only buy if it improves your lifestyle (no fussy landlords) and you can live through any possible price declines. Buying can be a cheaper alternative to renting in some locations but you had better like the place you buy. It is still better to buy land and build in Japan but this requires a lot of time and money. You still have to rent somewhere while you are building.

A lot of foreign buyers are seeing Japan as "cheap" because property markets in the US, UK, Australia, NZ, France and Spain are so overvalued. I've never liked the idea of something being regarded as cheap because isn't quite as much as something else that is expensive. We did that in Japan in the bubble and as recently as the internet boom.

Asahi: Land price rises seen propping economy

The buzz in the real estate industry about a reawakening property market got some statistical grounding this week when a government survey showed that land prices in some urban areas are on the rise.

The question now is whether the trend will spread beyond the metropolitan heartlands and buttress the gains made in the overall economy.

The average residential land price in Tokyo's eight central wards as of July 1 rose 0.3 percent from a year earlier, posting the first rise in 17 years, according to the land ministry statistics released Tuesday.

...For many real-estate executives, the highlight of Tuesday's survey was the rise in residential land prices, which supported their own observations of increased property transactions in Tokyo.

...Still, analysts caution it is too early to predict an end to asset deflation, particularly in rural Japan.

In the land ministry statistics, the rates of decline in residential and commercial land prices in regional areas were still among the largest for the past decade.

N.B. the surveys cover land prices, not condominium resale prices.

I bought five years ago in Takao for 39 million yen. My apartment is now worth less than half that. An apartment two minutes walk away offered fully furnished, about the same floorspace, an almost identical view and closer to the station has been on sale for 17 million yen for two years and remains untouched. I recently found a 2DK apartment on sale in Chiyoda-ku for 11 million (OK, it's 25 years old, but still).
AK is right, you'd be better off buying a rope.

We built our house in 1999, and while it is great having your own place, don't have to worry about bothering neighbors or anything like that, its no like it is back home. You buy or build a house and it depreciates every year you live in it. The only type of houses that has any value after a 20 year period is a concrete house. As for the condo's or apt. my wife has four in Tokyo, they were purchases during the bubble, each costing about 15 million yen, now here it is 12 years later, and she was told she could sell them for, wait for it,........................... 3 million yen. Yes the price of a car. In 12 years these condos have lost 12 million yen's value.
I love my house, you can come and visit if you like, but I know that when the mortgage is paid off the house itslef will be worth nothing. And now with the recycling law that was past, if I ever want to take it down that will cost me about 3 million yen.

I remember a few years ago when the missus and I inquired about buying a house (it was more her idea than mine). They told us that it would take 35 years to pay off for the house, with the monthly payments increasing after we were in our 60s! The image I had was of me in my 70s making that final blood and life sucking payment, dying the next day and then having the kids bulldoze the blasted thing down and turn the property into a parking lot so they could pay-off the inheritance taxes.

I second that, AK is right about the rope!

If you are looking at housing as an investment, I don't see a huge long term future in it. Japan is getting old and will soon depopulate so guess where land prices are headed.

As for houses, most Japanese would prefer to tear down any old house, based on the notion that few old houses are worth restoring or living in. To some extent this is right, as much of the housing built from the early post war period up to the 1970's is clearly worthless, as the cheapest and often worse construction materials were used in housing. With modern housing and better materials, it is an open question whether the market is better. The few friends I have who have bought secondhand houses, have all bought fairly modern houses.

If this doesn't discourage you, it depends alot of if you are planning to set up shop in the city or out in the countryside. In the city, you'll get REALLY stupid zoning bylaw galore (in Matsuyama, trees on property can not be more than 1 story in height), and will find it difficult to get anything much in the way of space or comfort. If you are trying to build a house the way you want it, small towns and villages are the way to go as they are not nearly as deranged with there zoning, but good luck working out in the boonies.

I've been living in Japan for over four years on and off. I bought a house a couple years ago in Florida - five minutes drive from Saint Petersburg Beach. I've been spending most of my time in Japan and have decided to sell the house. Its a two bedroom, two bath, 1100 sq. ft. home. Looking to sell for $168,000 USD. If anyone interested, send an email to pokem2001@yahoo.com. I'll send some pics, details...etc.

I was thinking of buying a house or apartment in Japan...but after reading this thread I think I'd rather rent. Just wondering...are any of these nightmare depreciation stories about places purchased in Tokyo? Or are you guys talking about inaka Japan? Location is key and it's hard to believe that a Tokyo property is on the downslide. I'll do some more reading...but very interested in this topic.

Sorry!

Mini_B wrote:... Just wondering...are any of these nightmare depreciation stories about places purchased in Tokyo? Or are you guys talking about inaka Japan? Location is key and it's hard to believe that a Tokyo property is on the downslide.

Nightmare depreciation happens all the time. Public housing program condos next the German School in Nakamachidai (Yokohama) dropped from 600,000,000yen to 275,000,000yen in the past 6 years---I almost bought one but getting a loan without a perm. visa is basically impossible thus saving me from doom.
In my neighborhood 28 minutes from Shibuya. a trashed 2DK sold for 15,000,000yen last month outside Tama Plaza. Machida always has a few 10,000,000 yen trash houses from the 60s. However, it's always the case that these places are a nasty 20 minute bus ride to the closest station. Also since Japanese houses are equal to Ugandan quality, "trash" houses are true crap here.

Mini B, if you are talking strictly about land prices, no they don't always go down. I read an article that stated that in certain areas of Tokyo the land prices are going up again. The difference between now and the bubble is that it is not uniform. Like Taro said some places are still dropping like a rock. If its a house and land the house will always depreciate. Don't ask me why it just does. Maybe because there is little resale market, or because the building codes aren't sufficient. I can't say for sure, but it does ALWAYS happen.

For the price of a home plus land here, I could buy one back in the states for about half the price and probably 10 times the square foot.. or meter whatever your standard..

Still my wife probably will hate moving back to the US, and somehow I think I will too for some strange and wacko reason.. so I don't know what the hell we are going to do.

Ahh well, I guess I have a few years more to make a permanent decision.

Rob Pongi wrote:

Mini_B wrote:I've been living in Japan for over four years on and off. I bought a house a couple years ago in Florida - five minutes drive from Saint Petersburg Beach.....

"Well, well I been movin' down to Florida.
And I'm gonna bowl me a perfect game.
Well I'm gonna cut off my leg down in Florida, child.
And I'm gonna dance one-legged off in the rain.
Now, they say that Sidney Poitier was a blind man.
And they say that LBJ was a Soviet Jew.
When I go down Florida Way,
They're ain't no kind of sexual healing that I would not, could not, should
Not do, stick it right here.

Well I been movin' down to Florida.
I'm gonna potty train the chairman Mao.
I'm gonna make the governor write my doodoo a letter, child.
And I'm gonna grind me up a White Castle side out of India's sacred cow.

Well, I been movin' down Florida Way,
And I'm gonna build me the atomic bomb.
Well, I'm gonna hold time hostage down in Florida, child.
Ain't nobody, said ain't nobody gonna tell me what to do. Right here.

By this time I guess you've figured out about Florida.
Drink the muddy water in the Vaseline stain.
They be makin' tadpoles the size of Americans down in Florida.
That be tellin' Julio Iglesias what to sing, now.
Now, whoever said that Sidney Poitier was a blind man,
Knew the same of Elvis Presley, too.
When I go down Florida Way,
Ain't nobody, said ain't nobody gonna tell me what to do. Right here.

Well I been goin' down to Florida.
Pole cats lie naked in the Seminole sin.
When I go down Florida Way,
Like Vince, I wanna' win.
Well I went down to Florida.
I got away.
I took the children down to Florida.
I stuck the dick down the drain.
Get that boy down to Florida.
Give him a switch blade.
Tell him what to do."


"Moving To Florida" - Butthole Surfers, Cream Corn From The Socket Of Davis - 1985

Didn't you put that in another thread? It's funny, just reading those lyrics and I can hear all the weird background stuff in that song in my head. Man, you and Sparkle and I grew up on the same music. My fave from that era is Creep in the Cellar. I just got a new copy of Locust Abortion Technician recently, too. LSD classics

kotatsuneko wrote:am seriously thinking of buying a nice house when we get back, but so many people say that buying isnt such a good thing, that you could sell the land afterwards, but the house is worthless, is this true?

any advice would be nice =^^=

I think buying a house is only smart if you are in for the long haul.

Buying new construction is like buying a new car. It depreciates to zero in a set number of years. This is only the market value, though]http://www.ur-net.go.jp/[/url]

You can then go out and have built an ultra low cost import stock house from the US or Canada. 40 tsubos can be built for around 10 million yen.

http://www.annexhomes.jp/

If you can amortize this over 10 or 15 years then you can just shrug it off.
If you are only here for five years, then, no, buying is not a smart choice economically.

two sites with some info

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/42/Real_Estate_in_Asia.html

http://forum.japantoday.com/m_109546/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

you would be a dumbfuck to buy a house/mansion/apartment in Japan.

biggest pieces of shit I have ever seen.

if its not imported, its fucked.

. We saw them a few times in SF in the late '80s and early '90s. First time was the 'Hairway To Steven' tour

A band I was in opened for them around that time. I was totally fuckin' thrilled. During the sound check they all had short hair and were very serious about getting the sound right and then they came out with wigs on during the show and rocked out. Standard sex change operation movies going. I saw them in once in Boulder, too. They had two full size movie screens going one with bloody car crashes and one with medical films of syphilitic dicks falling off. They Asian babe was nude and jumping on a trampoline. I almost had a fucking heart-attack. Oh yeah, don't buy a house.

twilightzone wrote:you would be a dumbfuck to buy a house/mansion/apartment in Japan.

biggest pieces of shit I have ever seen.

if its not imported, its fucked.

You would also be a dumbfuck if you ended up stuck living
in Japanese rental housing for the rest of your life.

It's purely a cash flow question. For a given cashflow, let's
say a typical 15 man/mo. rent, can you build/import something
bigger than your rental rabbit hutch? Yes, if you do your
homework.

As for imported vs. Japanese made, what is fucked is
the price rather than the quality. You can probably get
more for your money with imported. But there is no question
that houses built by Japanese firms such as Sekisui or Hebel
in 2004 are very good indeed. The new standards are very
high, higher on the whole than US standards. The 2004
Japanese house will withstand a Florida hurricane and a
California quake and a Chicago Fire and do so while consuming zero energy and
containing 100 percent recyclable materials.

Technologically on a par with Lexus cars I'd say. Too bad I can't afford either.

talkingdog wrote:[The new standards are very
high, higher on the whole than US standards. s.

Technologically on a par with Lexus cars I'd say. Too bad I can't afford either.

Nope. Standards that are NEVER enforced are not standards,

Sorry!

All I know is what I see. In America really nice houses can be over a hundred years old. In Japan, they fall to the ground in 25 years. If I buy a house I want to be able to live in it when I'm old for fucks sake.

AssKissinger wrote:All I know is what I see. In America really nice houses can be over a hundred years old. In Japan, they fall to the ground in 25 years. If I buy a house I want to be able to live in it when I'm old for fucks sake.

Actually, US housing has an average lifespan of about 42 years. You need to go to the UK or Europe to find housing with 100 year lifespan. IMHO US housing is pretty damned shoddy, unless you are talking custom home built by one of the few real craftsmen around.

At the same time, Americans move every seven years, again, on average, so why would you need a 100 year house? Better off spending the money on interior decorators each time you move than paying for an expensive high quality structure.

As for the 25 year Japanese house, this is largely a function of poor maintenance on the part of negligent owners, with he biggest problem being white ants. People generally don't maintain their houses properly, no preventive maintenance, and they don't bother to keep up with extermination--but this is not the fault of the carpenter.

Americans OTOH are obsessed with home maintenance and flock to Home Despot on weekends. No wonder their houses last longer--they take care of them and spend lots of money on them. Duh.

I don't think that termites are as big a problem these days. The construction industry has been used treated lumber for the past 20 years. I do agree that Japanese people put zero into maintenance, which really boggles the mind. I mean housing is a hell of a lot more expensive here than almost anywhere else, you'd think that would be incentive to keep the place up. But speaking of Home Depot, there are no such places here, and if you do go to any run of the mill "home center", the cost of the raw materials are outrageous.
When we built our house, I wanted to install a shower stall. Nothing fancy, you can get then back home(Canada) for about 250-300C$ Here the damn thing was going to run us almost 200 000 yen. For a bloddy PVC shower stall.

well, if japan actually built houses that weren't squallar, what ever would the contruction business/racket do when people didnt have to rebuild all the time? imagine, building a house that would last for 60+ years and having a families move into used houses on a regular basis, it would destroy like a fifth of japanese economy and force them them to be creative and get other jobs... such as warning pedestrians about open manhole covers or directing traffic at intersections that already have stop lights.

Marvin wrote:

The 2004 Japanese house will withstand a Florida hurricane and a
California quake and a Chicago Fire and do so while consuming zero energy and containing 100 percent recyclable materials.

Why the hell are they so bloody awful in Japan, then?

All the structural performance in the world doesn't make a bit of difference to you as a user, though, because all you care about is how the facade looks and what the interior is like.

The main reason Japanese houses are so bloody awful is that people don't give a shit about their houses (or didn't until just recently).

What is awful about them, then?

First, the module used for layout is around 36 inches, not 48 as in the US. As a result, all the hallways, doors, stairs and other spaces are cramped and narrow. Stairs end up being steep and ceilings low. Claustrophobia.

Second, the HVAC systems are primitive. Most people end up with a goddamn unvented heater in the living room of their airtight house. This is awful and dangerous.

Third, the wallcoverings, cabinetry, flooring and fixtures are all covered with icky vinyl finishes that feel terrible to the touch, age rapidly, and cannot be repaired.

etc., etc.

Don't forget badly designed kitchens with zero bench space and no ovens. Impossible to do any decent cooking.

Also zero storage space and not enough room for my shoe collection.

devicenull wrote:well, if japan actually built houses that weren't squallar, what ever would the contruction business/racket do when people didnt have to rebuild all the time? imagine, building a house that would last for 60+ years and having a families move into used houses on a regular basis, it would destroy like a fifth of japanese economy and force them them to be creative and get other jobs... such as warning pedestrians about open manhole covers or directing traffic at intersections that already have stop lights.

This is exactly the case. The present situation of poor resale value is a result of a deliberate and concerted strategy between the bureaucrats and industry after the War. What most people fail to mention is that housing had resale value _before_ the War.

Nevertheless, this is beginning to change. Note the adverts on TV from Hebel House touting their resale value (shisan kachi). Japan's largest contractor, Kajima, is also touting the resale value of its condos. Others, too.

This is all because some people have awakened to the fact that the big thing dragging the economy down over the past 15 years has been that people's live savings have been eaten up by negative equity in their homes. In order to get people to start spending again, they need a way to reverse that situation. This is issue numero uno for Japan IMO.

GomiGirl wrote:Don't forget badly designed kitchens with zero bench space and no ovens. Impossible to do any decent cooking.

Also zero storage space and not enough room for my shoe collection.

yep

I was recently redoing the kitchen in my summer place. Typical galley style kitchen, 170 cm from wall to wall. I noticed that with normal cabinets 60 cm in depth on both sides you only have about 50 cm of passage in the kitchen. Thus, if somebody is working there, nobody can pass--without getting intimate, that is. As a designer you have to get really creative to overcome the limitation of this 91 cm module.

Same goes for stairs and halls. Two people cannot pass without sidling. That's pretty bad.

I believe that they are one of the great all time rock'n'roll bands so opening for them was like opening for The Who or something (to me).

but you saw them on two (2) FULL-SIZE movie screens AND the naked Asian babe WAS JUMPING ON A TRAMPOLINE!!! OH MY BIG HAPPY BUDDHA

Yeah and it was really terrifying. The show was in a gymnasium on the University of Colorado campus so they had tons of wall space. Plus, I don't mean to make you jealous, but, it was on fucking Halloween. And back then Boulder had a big party called the 'Mall Crawl' on Halloween where everyone took shrooms and went totally nutter. Does anybody know if they're still doing that?