Why won't they do anything?

[Papa-Lazarou]

Im a consultant who works in Japan for a couple of months a year. I have a recurring problem whatever company i work with: IE, nobody will do anything, ever, no matter what.

why is this?

I might ask them to change the admin username on a firewall, and they will spend 3 hours explaining why they cant do it (not common in Japan, can't be done on CISCO firewalls, manager isn't here to approve, etc)

why, why, can't they fucking do anything, ever??

and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?

[yanpa]

Welcome to Japan.

So, about this expectation that people will willingly take initiative and responsibility.. *snigger*.

[Yokohammer]

... and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?

Probably because the company management sees the IT department as a convenient place to dump excess staff who are basically useless and just in the way anywhere else. Happens a lot in larger corporations. It often used to be the people assigned to producing foreign language promotional materials and owner's manuals, but the advent of IT has provided a whole new carpet to sweep the debris under. Old guard upper management generally doesn't have a clue about the importance of IT, like literature and manual production, and considers it a separate and subordinate function to whatever the company does.


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[matsuki]

Im a consultant who works in Japan for a couple of months a year. I have a recurring problem whatever company i work with: IE, nobody will do anything, ever, no matter what.

why is this?

I might ask them to change the admin username on a firewall, and they will spend 3 hours explaining why they cant do it (not common in Japan, can't be done on CISCO firewalls, manager isn't here to approve, etc)

why, why, can't they fucking do anything, ever??

and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?

Friend working at BMW is here to deal with the Toyota (Japanese side) of their joint sports car project....he is seething and threatening to shove their stamps up their asses on a daily basis. Seems like every little decision needs 101 stamps on it and at any given time, the needed stamps are on vacation, overseas on assignment, etc.

[legion]

Be the stamp, grasshopper

[Mike Oxlong]

Be the stamp, grasshopper

What he's saying is show us your chops!

[Papa-Lazarou]

... and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?

Probably because the company management sees the IT department as a convenient place to dump excess staff who are basically useless and just in the way anywhere else. Happens a lot in larger corporations. It often used to be the people assigned to producing foreign language promotional materials and owner's manuals, but the advent of IT has provided a whole new carpet to sweep the debris under. Old guard upper management generally doesn't have a clue about the importance of IT, like literature and manual production, and considers it a separate and subordinate function to whatever the company does.


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Cheers, this explains a lot, but why keep these people on the payroll? It can't be cheap having so much dead wood sitting around meeting rooms all day, sucking their teeth and grimacing.

[wuchan]

... and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?

Probably because the company management sees the IT department as a convenient place to dump excess staff who are basically useless and just in the way anywhere else. Happens a lot in larger corporations. It often used to be the people assigned to producing foreign language promotional materials and owner's manuals, but the advent of IT has provided a whole new carpet to sweep the debris under. Old guard upper management generally doesn't have a clue about the importance of IT, like literature and manual production, and considers it a separate and subordinate function to whatever the company does.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Cheers, this explains a lot, but why keep these people on the payroll? It can't be cheap having so much dead wood sitting around meeting rooms all day, sucking their teeth and grimacing.

It's very, very hard to fire people and layoffs are almost unheard of.

[Samurai_Jerk]

It's very, very hard to fire people and layoffs are almost unheard of.

I often hear it's very hard to fire people in Japan for anything other than misconduct and I know that if you stick to the letter of labor law you have to give multiple warnings and time for people to improve their performance before firing them. However, smaller Japanese companies and foreign firms off all sizes in Japan fire/lay off people all the time and there doesn't seem to much of a consequence to their actions.

I know one way major Japanese companies avoid firing or laying people off is by having large numbers of temp and contract workers whose contracts they can choose not to renew thus reducing headcount without officially cutting anyone. However, I wonder whether it's actually that hard to fire people in Japan legally speaking or if companies don't do it for other reasons. Is it the social contract with the workers (loyalty for loyalty)? Is it the unions?

I'm not advocating they start firing people en masse or anything. I'm just curious as to what's really going on.

[wuchan]

It's very, very hard to fire people and layoffs are almost unheard of.

I often hear it's very hard to fire people in Japan for anything other than misconduct and I know that if you stick to the letter of labor law you have to give multiple warnings and time for people to improve their performance before firing them. However, smaller Japanese companies and foreign firms off all sizes in Japan fire/lay off people all the time and there doesn't seem to much of a consequence to their actions.

I know one way major Japanese companies avoid firing or laying people off is by having large numbers of temp and contract workers whose contracts they can choose not to renew thus reducing headcount without officially cutting anyone. However, I wonder whether it's actually that hard to fire people in Japan legally speaking or if companies don't do it for other reasons. Is it the social contract with the workers (loyalty for loyalty)? Is it the unions?

I'm not advocating they start firing people en masse or anything. I'm just curious as to what's really going on.

In order to get fired you have to do something wrong but there's nothing wrong with being slow, lazy or incompetent. Small companies get away with more because most employees won't ever take legal action and if they do most companies have a special bank account to pay them off. If it does go to court the side with the most money always wins. The downside for large corporations is potential media coverage. For the big guys it's less of a headache to keep the crap employee and burry them somewhere hoping they quit.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?

[wuchan]

Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?

they don't care about getting a black eye from time to time.

[IparryU]

Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?

they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.

[Samurai_Jerk]

So in reality, it's not difficult to fire people in Japan. Most major companies just choose not to do it. Sure they'd get some bad PR but I doubt that would affect their bottom line or ability to hire eager young shinsotsu much.

[yanpa]

Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?

they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.

More likely darkest inaka, preferably some dying industrial town on Hokkaido.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?

they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.

More likely darkest inaka, preferably some dying industrial town on Hokkaido.

He's talking about foreign firms. And that really only applies to investment banks. I guess what it really comes down to is most employees either don't know or don't bother to assert their right not to be fired.

[yanpa]

Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?

they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.

More likely darkest inaka, preferably some dying industrial town on Hokkaido.

He's talking about foreign firms. And that really only applies to investment banks. I guess what it really comes down to is most employees either don't know or don't bother to assert their right not to be fired.

Sorry, comprehension fail, compounded by the fact I know some Japanese people who enjoyed living and working in Hong Kong.

[wagyl]

I guess what it really comes down to is most employees either don't know or don't bother to assert their right not to be fired.

Or they are realistic enough to sense that they don't want to work for a place which obviously doesn't want them to work there, and that rather than fight long battles trying to wring some cash compensation they are better served in the long run by turning to a new page, brushing themselves down and getting on with creating a new future.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?

they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.

More likely darkest inaka, preferably some dying industrial town on Hokkaido.

He's talking about foreign firms. And that really only applies to investment banks. I guess what it really comes down to is most employees either don't know or don't bother to assert their right not to be fired.

Sorry, comprehension fail, compounded by the fact I know some Japanese people who enjoyed living and working in Hong Kong.

Investment banks move people from Tokyo to HK as the first step before firing them.

[legion]

my company lays off people, gives them a choice, pushing the mail trolley or big wad of cash.

It's all joke anyway, few of us do anything useful these days, the guy pushing the mail trolley is actually closest to a real job. The rest is capitalism eating itself.

[Russell]

my company lays off people, gives them a choice, pushing the mail trolley or big wad of cash.

It's all joke anyway, few of us do anything useful these days, the guy pushing the mail trolley is actually closest to a real job. The rest is capitalism eating itself.

Let me guess...

You are pushing the mail trolley?

[Mike Oxlong]

Be the stamp, grasshopper

What he's saying is show us your chops!

[legion]

my company lays off people, gives them a choice, pushing the mail trolley or big wad of cash.

It's all joke anyway, few of us do anything useful these days, the guy pushing the mail trolley is actually closest to a real job. The rest is capitalism eating itself.

Let me guess...

You are pushing the mail trolley?

That gig is reserved for the children of Yamato

I actually make stuff that you can see.

[Papa-Lazarou]

I was working with unnecessarily large IT departments who had all developed unnecessarily complex systems which were impossible to manage. They would have 15 servers doing things that most other people do on a single box, and networks that were segmented in an arbitrary manner (more segments is better?)

They also had a change management process that required 8 approval stamps to do anything which meant changes were avoided at all cost.

It's the kind of environment that Sir Humphrey Appleby would have approved of.

So my question is: Is complexity a virtue in Japan? I kept trying to get them to simplify and consolidate things, but they looked at me like I was stood there with faeces all over my face.

They used 3 separate log books for issuing single keys, which were so complicated that the staff kept making mistakes and keys went missing etc
When I came up with a single, simple log book to use, they looked at it with suspicion then decided to use it in addition to the 3 existing logs, giving them a 4 log book system, which meant issuing a key became a 6 man, 45 minute exercise in head scratching and teeth sucking.

[yanpa]

So my question is: Is complexity a virtue in Japan? I kept trying to get them to simplify and consolidate things, but they looked at me like I was stood there with faeces all over my face.

I don't know about being a virtue, but it certainly keeps people in gainful employment and give them the feeling they're doing Something Important.

I presume Excel sheets are heavily involved in the described processes? Preferably password-protected ones where the correct procedure for password protection (first send the Excel sheet in a password-protected ZIP file, then the password in a separate email) is followed?

[Papa-Lazarou]

So my question is: Is complexity a virtue in Japan? I kept trying to get them to simplify and consolidate things, but they looked at me like I was stood there with faeces all over my face.

I don't know about being a virtue, but it certainly keeps people in gainful employment and give them the feeling they're doing Something Important.

I presume Excel sheets are heavily involved in the described processes? Preferably password-protected ones where the correct procedure for password protection (first send the Excel sheet in a password-protected ZIP file, then the password in a separate email) is followed?

Not so much, as 50% of the IT department don't have access to a computer, so everything has be done on paper.

[yanpa]

So my question is: Is complexity a virtue in Japan? I kept trying to get them to simplify and consolidate things, but they looked at me like I was stood there with faeces all over my face.

I don't know about being a virtue, but it certainly keeps people in gainful employment and give them the feeling they're doing Something Important.

I presume Excel sheets are heavily involved in the described processes? Preferably password-protected ones where the correct procedure for password protection (first send the Excel sheet in a password-protected ZIP file, then the password in a separate email) is followed?

Not so much, as 50% of the IT department don't have access to a computer, so everything has be done on paper.

[wagyl]

It sounds to me that you identified the issue when you mentioned Sir Humphrey Appleby. You seem to be dealing with a bureaucratic style organisation, notwithstanding that it is a commercial enterprise. There are two significant indicators: every process that is introduced is made ad hoc, and in response to a specific issue, without consideration of wider issues and processes, so that a massive accretion of potentially conflicting processes develops; and every manager guards his fiefdom aggressively and does not tolerate criticism from other fiefdoms. Does that ring bells with you?

I don't think this is a Japan issue, or a matter of Japan having a unique appreciation of complexity. It is a bureaucratic issue. You can, however, say that Japan seems to allow a greater leakage of bureaucratic thinking into the commercial sphere.

As to a solution to the problem, ask yourself: is this your problem to solve? If not, in that kind of environment, you will get no thanks for trying to improve the situation, as you are going to be treading on 15 or 50 Napoleon's toes. Just pocket the Yen from the continuing work you will get from the clusterfuck.
If it is your problem to solve, you will need superNapolen powers granted from on high.

[Papa-Lazarou]

It sounds to me that you identified the issue when you mentioned Sir Humphrey Appleby. You seem to be dealing with a bureaucratic style organisation, notwithstanding that it is a commercial enterprise. There are two significant indicators: every process that is introduced is made ad hoc, and in response to a specific issue, without consideration of wider issues and processes, so that a massive accretion of potentially conflicting processes develops; and every manager guards his fiefdom aggressively and does not tolerate criticism from other fiefdoms. Does that ring bells with you?

I don't think this is a Japan issue, or a matter of Japan having a unique appreciation of complexity. It is a bureaucratic issue. You can, however, say that Japan seems to allow a greater leakage of bureaucratic thinking into the commercial sphere.

As to a solution to the problem, ask yourself: is this your problem to solve? If not, in that kind of environment, you will get no thanks for trying to improve the situation, as you are going to be treading on 15 or 50 Napoleon's toes. Just pocket the Yen from the continuing work you will get from the clusterfuck.
If it is your problem to solve, you will need superNapolen powers granted from on high.

I can quite imagine Sir Humphrey snappishly explaining to a bemused Bernard that "the purpose of hiring an external consultant is NOT to improve our way of working, but to protect the people and institutions that we have created!"

[matsuki]

every process that is introduced is made ad hoc, and in response to a specific issue, without consideration of wider issues and processes, so that a massive accretion of potentially conflicting processes develops; and every manager guards his fiefdom aggressively and does not tolerate criticism from other fiefdoms.

Wow, you just described "Japanese-style" to the T

I don't think this is a Japan issue, or a matter of Japan having a unique appreciation of complexity. It is a bureaucratic issue. You can, however, say that Japan seems to allow a greater leakage of bureaucratic thinking into

...everything?