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Papa-Lazarou wrote: ... and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?
Papa-Lazarou wrote:Im a consultant who works in Japan for a couple of months a year. I have a recurring problem whatever company i work with: IE, nobody will do anything, ever, no matter what.
why is this?
I might ask them to change the admin username on a firewall, and they will spend 3 hours explaining why they cant do it (not common in Japan, can't be done on CISCO firewalls, manager isn't here to approve, etc)
why, why, can't they fucking do anything, ever??
and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?
legion wrote:Be the stamp, grasshopper
Yokohammer wrote:Papa-Lazarou wrote: ... and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?
Probably because the company management sees the IT department as a convenient place to dump excess staff who are basically useless and just in the way anywhere else. Happens a lot in larger corporations. It often used to be the people assigned to producing foreign language promotional materials and owner's manuals, but the advent of IT has provided a whole new carpet to sweep the debris under. Old guard upper management generally doesn't have a clue about the importance of IT, like literature and manual production, and considers it a separate and subordinate function to whatever the company does.
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Papa-Lazarou wrote:Yokohammer wrote:Papa-Lazarou wrote: ... and why does it need 15 people to manage 1 firewall?
Probably because the company management sees the IT department as a convenient place to dump excess staff who are basically useless and just in the way anywhere else. Happens a lot in larger corporations. It often used to be the people assigned to producing foreign language promotional materials and owner's manuals, but the advent of IT has provided a whole new carpet to sweep the debris under. Old guard upper management generally doesn't have a clue about the importance of IT, like literature and manual production, and considers it a separate and subordinate function to whatever the company does.
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Cheers, this explains a lot, but why keep these people on the payroll? It can't be cheap having so much dead wood sitting around meeting rooms all day, sucking their teeth and grimacing.
wuchan wrote:It's very, very hard to fire people and layoffs are almost unheard of.
Samurai_Jerk wrote:wuchan wrote:It's very, very hard to fire people and layoffs are almost unheard of.
I often hear it's very hard to fire people in Japan for anything other than misconduct and I know that if you stick to the letter of labor law you have to give multiple warnings and time for people to improve their performance before firing them. However, smaller Japanese companies and foreign firms off all sizes in Japan fire/lay off people all the time and there doesn't seem to much of a consequence to their actions.
I know one way major Japanese companies avoid firing or laying people off is by having large numbers of temp and contract workers whose contracts they can choose not to renew thus reducing headcount without officially cutting anyone. However, I wonder whether it's actually that hard to fire people in Japan legally speaking or if companies don't do it for other reasons. Is it the social contract with the workers (loyalty for loyalty)? Is it the unions?
I'm not advocating they start firing people en masse or anything. I'm just curious as to what's really going on.
Samurai_Jerk wrote:Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?
Samurai_Jerk wrote:Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?
IparryU wrote:Samurai_Jerk wrote:Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?
they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.
yanpa wrote:IparryU wrote:Samurai_Jerk wrote:Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?
they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.
More likely darkest inaka, preferably some dying industrial town on Hokkaido.
Samurai_Jerk wrote:yanpa wrote:IparryU wrote:Samurai_Jerk wrote:Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?
they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.
More likely darkest inaka, preferably some dying industrial town on Hokkaido.
He's talking about foreign firms. And that really only applies to investment banks. I guess what it really comes down to is most employees either don't know or don't bother to assert their right not to be fired.
Samurai_Jerk wrote:I guess what it really comes down to is most employees either don't know or don't bother to assert their right not to be fired.
yanpa wrote:Samurai_Jerk wrote:yanpa wrote:IparryU wrote:Samurai_Jerk wrote:Then how do major foreign firms get away with it?
they make you sign a "I cannot perform in my position" confession or transfer you to Hong Kong.
More likely darkest inaka, preferably some dying industrial town on Hokkaido.
He's talking about foreign firms. And that really only applies to investment banks. I guess what it really comes down to is most employees either don't know or don't bother to assert their right not to be fired.
Sorry, comprehension fail, compounded by the fact I know some Japanese people who enjoyed living and working in Hong Kong.
legion wrote:my company lays off people, gives them a choice, pushing the mail trolley or big wad of cash.
It's all joke anyway, few of us do anything useful these days, the guy pushing the mail trolley is actually closest to a real job. The rest is capitalism eating itself.
Mike Oxlong wrote:legion wrote:Be the stamp, grasshopper
What he's saying is show us your chops!
Russell wrote:legion wrote:my company lays off people, gives them a choice, pushing the mail trolley or big wad of cash.
It's all joke anyway, few of us do anything useful these days, the guy pushing the mail trolley is actually closest to a real job. The rest is capitalism eating itself.
Let me guess...
You are pushing the mail trolley?
Papa-Lazarou wrote:So my question is: Is complexity a virtue in Japan? I kept trying to get them to simplify and consolidate things, but they looked at me like I was stood there with faeces all over my face.
yanpa wrote:Papa-Lazarou wrote:So my question is: Is complexity a virtue in Japan? I kept trying to get them to simplify and consolidate things, but they looked at me like I was stood there with faeces all over my face.
I don't know about being a virtue, but it certainly keeps people ingainfulemployment and give them the feeling they're doing Something Important.
I presume Excel sheets are heavily involved in the described processes? Preferably password-protected ones where the correct procedure for password protection (first send the Excel sheet in a password-protected ZIP file, then the password in a separate email) is followed?
Papa-Lazarou wrote:yanpa wrote:Papa-Lazarou wrote:So my question is: Is complexity a virtue in Japan? I kept trying to get them to simplify and consolidate things, but they looked at me like I was stood there with faeces all over my face.
I don't know about being a virtue, but it certainly keeps people ingainfulemployment and give them the feeling they're doing Something Important.
I presume Excel sheets are heavily involved in the described processes? Preferably password-protected ones where the correct procedure for password protection (first send the Excel sheet in a password-protected ZIP file, then the password in a separate email) is followed?
Not so much, as 50% of the IT department don't have access to a computer, so everything has be done on paper.
wagyl wrote:It sounds to me that you identified the issue when you mentioned Sir Humphrey Appleby. You seem to be dealing with a bureaucratic style organisation, notwithstanding that it is a commercial enterprise. There are two significant indicators: every process that is introduced is made ad hoc, and in response to a specific issue, without consideration of wider issues and processes, so that a massive accretion of potentially conflicting processes develops; and every manager guards his fiefdom aggressively and does not tolerate criticism from other fiefdoms. Does that ring bells with you?
I don't think this is a Japan issue, or a matter of Japan having a unique appreciation of complexity. It is a bureaucratic issue. You can, however, say that Japan seems to allow a greater leakage of bureaucratic thinking into the commercial sphere.
As to a solution to the problem, ask yourself: is this your problem to solve? If not, in that kind of environment, you will get no thanks for trying to improve the situation, as you are going to be treading on 15 or 50 Napoleon's toes. Just pocket the Yen from the continuing work you will get from the clusterfuck.
If it is your problem to solve, you will need superNapolen powers granted from on high.
wagyl wrote:every process that is introduced is made ad hoc, and in response to a specific issue, without consideration of wider issues and processes, so that a massive accretion of potentially conflicting processes develops; and every manager guards his fiefdom aggressively and does not tolerate criticism from other fiefdoms.
wagyl wrote:I don't think this is a Japan issue, or a matter of Japan having a unique appreciation of complexity. It is a bureaucratic issue. You can, however, say that Japan seems to allow a greater leakage of bureaucratic thinking into
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