Environmentalists pursue Japan's whalers

[Samurai_Jerk]

And there is an argument about taking animals from the wild as opposed to farming them. Pigs and so on are farmed. Dolphins are not.

That's the dumbest argument of all. Especially because the people who make it usually have no problem eating other kinds of seafood and a lot of them are actually probably fake vegetarians (AKA pescetarians). I'll give the dolphins-is-people crown more time than the dummies who are against hunting but not eating farm-raised animals.

[kurogane]

Yokohammer,
Oh, Too Much Meat you say!!????? Gawd, yeah. The rise in average meat consumption is shocking. I remember as a kid we used to have things we called Meat Nights, and that was already the 60s, whereas I can hardly remember a day without at least some meat or something like it for the past 5 or 10 years or so. The daily amount of meat some eat is shocking. Any recipe tips for going meatless occasionally? My answer is to eat much, much less per serving, but any ideas would be welcome. I'll look at that linked article after my walkies. Thanks.

SJ,
You too??? I wondered if that wasn't a New World/Old World divide. Keep in mind virtually any hunting in the UK or Western Europe is purely Cecil the Lion trophy killing or poaching. Apart from pest control, of course. I doubt I could hunt (too icky) but hunting for meat is a feast I cannot oppose in the least. I do have reservations about aspects of game hunters' enjoyment of it, but if you eat what you shoot, then good aim to ya. Dolphin hunting is unnecessary, cruel, and the meat is bad for you; I just like telling preachy whiteys to get fucked, and theirs is the greater sin, as one of commission rather than omission.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Long, but well-balanced and informative for those who have the time and interest.

In short, we're producing and eating too much meat.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/should-humans-eat-meat-excerpt/

It's definitely true that we're eating too much meat. A lot more than is health for us or the environment. I've seen this point brought up in the context of anti-whaling/anti-hunting arguments though which makes absolutely no sense. It's a completely different issue. By the way, I'm not accusing you of trying to make that link.

SJ,
You too??? I wondered if that wasn't a New World/Old World divide. Keep in mind virtually any hunting in the UK or Western Europe is purely Cecil the Lion trophy killing or poaching. Apart from pest control, of course. I doubt I could hunt (too icky) but hunting for meat is a feast I cannot oppose in the least. I do have reservations about aspects of game hunters' enjoyment of it, but if you eat what you shoot, then good aim to ya. Dolphin hunting is unnecessary, cruel, and the meat is bad for you; I just like telling preachy whiteys to get fucked, and theirs is the greater sin, as one of commission rather than omission.

Yeah, like the belief that whales and dolphins are somehow sacred among all other animals the belief that hunting is wrong is held with a religious like fervor that is illogical and sanctimonious. My biggest beef with whaling and dolphin hunting in Japan is they're being propped up by subsidies. Agree or not I get why subsidizing some key industries makes sense to people but neither of those fall under the umbrella of industries that arguably should be. I've said to people that if healthy populations of cetaceans can't be maintained or the industry can't survive on it's own, the hunts should be stopped. However, I don't think that killing them in and of itself is worse than killing any other animal. It's hilarious to watch the whale lovers get all red in the face and want to argue but not actually be able to because they have no logical reason to disagree. The nice thing is that usually ends the discussion.

I was at my at one of my favorite izakayas on Saturday night and noticed they had kujira tataki on the daily specials menus. I almost ordered it just to be contrarian then I remembered it doesn't actually taste all that good.

[kurogane]

Nice post. Yes to that.

Even allowing for how picky an eater I am I find both whale and dolphin are kind of gross. "Too ambiguous" was one I came up with years ago to stem the force feeding tide. But ordering it around Whiteys would be funny as hell. And pretending to relish it. While making Flipper/Shamu jokes.

[Coligny]

It's definitely true that we're eating too much meat. A lot more than is health for us ...
.

Yet the average life expectancy keep skyrocketting up...

[Samurai_Jerk]

It's definitely true that we're eating too much meat. A lot more than is health for us ...
.

Yet the average life expectancy keep skyrocketting up...

Not in America which was the first to go processed food and factory farming. Now the rest of you dummies are following suit.

[Wage Slave]

It's definitely true that we're eating too much meat. A lot more than is health for us ...
.

Yet the average life expectancy keep skyrocketting up...

Not in America which was the first to go processed food and factory farming. Now the rest of you dummies are following suit.

As we all usually do. Whatever we may say.

[Coligny]

It's definitely true that we're eating too much meat. A lot more than is health for us ...
.

Yet the average life expectancy keep skyrocketting up...

Not in America which was the first to go processed food and factory farming. Now the rest of you dummies are following suit.

Even if you remove death by police shooting !?

[Samurai_Jerk]

It's definitely true that we're eating too much meat. A lot more than is health for us ...
.

Yet the average life expectancy keep skyrocketting up...

Not in America which was the first to go processed food and factory farming. Now the rest of you dummies are following suit.

Even if you remove death by police shooting !?

Probably since homicide rates have fallen with life expectancy.

[kurogane]

A touching story from today's harvest:

WARNING: GRAPHIC VIDEO FOOTAGE THAT'S GROSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.thereportertimes.com/terrifi ... ters/6141/

Terrified Dolphin Throws Himself near Ric O’Barry’s Feet To Escape Hunters
By Ashish Agrawal on September 13, 2015

The ultimate beauty of nature was caught on camera when a terrified Dolphin tries to escape himself from hunters coming to caught him in the net. Ric O’Barry, the founder of Dolphin project was there and Dolphin immediately recognises him and came near him to save his life. However, Ric was unable to do anything because of limitations at his end.

Rick O’Barry is the founder of Dolphin Project and Star in the movie “The Cove”, “The Cove” was actually a documentary based on Dolphins. Possibly the beautiful Dolphin has recognised Rick and came near him in a hope of getting escaped from the hunters. One stricken animal, overwhelmed by fear, seems to intuitively recognize a friend. He throws himself on the rocky shore at O’Barry’s feet, desperately thrashing and rolling onto his back as he tries to escape. There are many issues raised by Rick on the same matter which includes the importance of providing the correct ways to catch the Fishes and not to be that cruel to catch the endangered species.

Rick says “Over 100s of Men are doing this and they do not represent Japanese People, it was not our culture. This is so stressful and so difficult to witness, I almost got into the water and almost touched him. I would have been arrested for this.” When ask of what is to be done, Rick says "The important thing is for people to donate as much as they can to my foundation so I can keep coming to Taiji and watch dolphins die and continue to tell other people what is right and what is wrong day after day after day. Although we didn't know the name of that poor dolphin we saw today, in keeping with the Buddhist traditions of the brave dolphin hunters of Taiji and our own aggressive anthropomorphism we will bestow a posthumous name on him. We will call him Yushoku."

[wagyl]

Jesus the least you could do is warn me to prepare a barf bag first!

[Samurai_Jerk]

Fuck that. I'm heading to that izakaya again tonight. If there's kujira on the menu, I'm ordering it.

[Russell]

However, I don't think that killing them [cetaceans] in and of itself is worse than killing any other animal.

Everybody here seems to agree with this sentiment to the extent that the discussion is getting boring.

Time to be a bit of a contrarian party-pooper.

So, do anyone of you think that killing Cetaceans in and of itself is worse (or better) than killing / eating Chimpanzees or do experiments on them?

[kurogane]

My bad. I never watch those videos anyways. I'll put up a warning.

[wagyl]

My bad. I never watch those videos anyways. I'll put up a warning.

Haha I didn't watch the video, or click on the link at all. The content of the excerpt alone was enough.

Ric O’Barry, the founder of Dolphin project was there and Dolphin immediately recognises him and came near him to save his life.

Possibly the beautiful Dolphin has recognised Rick and came near him in a hope of getting escaped from the hunters

Rick says "The important thing is for people to donate as much as they can to my foundation"

Rick says "our own aggressive anthropomorphism [do I sense the hand of an editor there???} we will bestow a posthumous name on him. We will call him Yushoku."

I have now watched three seconds of the video. it is filmed in portrait
I also see that a couple of sprays of projectile vomit should be aimed at Vancouver. A classic case of the operation of Poe's Law.

By the way, the video is not graphic. Once again we have shameful elevation of adjectives. If that is desperate thrashing, I don't know what words would be enough to describe real torture. By showing the video, they just reinforced to me how emotional they are. Emotion and argument do not mix. They are not here to argue. They are here to impose their will on others.

And they pronounce Taiji like Tai Chi.

Last year I was in the area. I didn't feel comfortable, mainly because I didn't want people to associate me with them.

[Coligny]

However, I don't think that killing them [cetaceans] in and of itself is worse than killing any other animal.

Everybody here seems to agree with this sentiment to the extent that the discussion is getting boring.

Time to be a bit of a contrarian party-pooper.

So, do anyone of you think that killing Cetaceans in and of itself is worse (or better) than killing / eating Chimpanzees or do experiments on them?

Fuck it, I'd shoot them for fun...

As for pigs and cows... Unless your are in couple with one... Might as well eat them....

[Takechanpoo]

fucking bunch of eco-nazists or eco-cultists who dont know how to relativize their justice and cannot help but devote to something absolute. probably most of them dont notice their own religiousness. its dangerous....... that vid and their racist comments will make some japanese more hard-headed.
its a vicious circle.

[Coligny]

Ok, who hijacked Take's account to write something smart ?

[kurogane]

....... ............ A classic case of the operation of Poe's Law.

By the way, the video is not graphic. Once again we have shameful elevation of adjectives. They are not here to argue. They are here to impose their will on others..

Hehehe. Nice to know I obey some laws. I will have to tweak that little Yushoku joke at the end for the non-Japanese speaking crowd I suppose. Anyways, well put. It is an evangelical exercise, to be sure. Praise be to Flopper, the first martyr of Taiji.

They call him Flopper, Flopper
Jumping on beach rocks,
The hunters you see
are hungry for he........

Anyhoo, this is my bit of Edgar Allen:

When ask of what is to be done, Rick says "The important thing is for people to donate as much as they can to my foundation so I can keep coming to Taiji and watch dolphins die and continue to tell other people what is right and what is wrong day after day after day. Although we didn't know the name of that poor dolphin we saw today, in keeping with the Buddhist traditions of the brave dolphin hunters of Taiji and our own aggressive anthropomorphism we will bestow a posthumous name on him. We will call him Yushoku."

I have also been meaning to get down there but I will definitely have to be in the mood to explain myself when I do go and I don't seem to feel that way often enough lately. Is it a nice area for a lesiurely drive? I do so love the whole outer Wakayama area. Such lovely water and beaches.

However, I don't think that killing them [cetaceans] in and of itself is worse than killing any other animal.

Everybody here seems to agree with this sentiment to the extent that the discussion is getting boring. Time to be a bit of a contrarian party-pooper.

So, do anyone of you think that killing Cetaceans in and of itself is worse (or better) than killing / eating Chimpanzees or do experiments on them?

Keeping in mind that I am fully against both, I would give it a Sophie's Choice Award. The former are rather obviously highly intelligent in a way that is commensurate to us, whether equal or not, and hunting them is unnecessary, and the latter are Linnaen cousins, and also worthy of much better treatment than that. There does seem to be compelling arguments for laboratory use, but I am not scientifical enough to be able to judge. Is that your area at all?

I wonder how Chimp tastes? Sounds like a mission for SJ!!!!!!!!!!

[Russell]

....... ............ A classic case of the operation of Poe's Law.

By the way, the video is not graphic. Once again we have shameful elevation of adjectives. They are not here to argue. They are here to impose their will on others..

Hehehe. Nice to know I obey some laws. I will have to tweak that little Yushoku joke at the end for the non-Japanese speaking crowd I suppose. Anyways, well put. It is an evangelical exercise, to be sure. Praise be to Flopper, the first martyr of Taiji.

They call him Flopper, Flopper
Jumping on beach rocks,
The hunters you see
are hungry for he........

Anyhoo, this is my bit of Edgar Allen:

When ask of what is to be done, Rick says "The important thing is for people to donate as much as they can to my foundation so I can keep coming to Taiji and watch dolphins die and continue to tell other people what is right and what is wrong day after day after day. Although we didn't know the name of that poor dolphin we saw today, in keeping with the Buddhist traditions of the brave dolphin hunters of Taiji and our own aggressive anthropomorphism we will bestow a posthumous name on him. We will call him Yushoku."

I have also been meaning to get down there but I will definitely have to be in the mood to explain myself when I do go and I don't seem to feel that way often enough lately. Is it a nice area for a lesiurely drive? I do so love the whole outer Wakayama area. Such lovely water and beaches.

However, I don't think that killing them [cetaceans] in and of itself is worse than killing any other animal.

Everybody here seems to agree with this sentiment to the extent that the discussion is getting boring. Time to be a bit of a contrarian party-pooper.

So, do anyone of you think that killing Cetaceans in and of itself is worse (or better) than killing / eating Chimpanzees or do experiments on them?

Keeping in mind that I am fully against both, I would give it a Sophie's Choice Award. The former are rather obviously highly intelligent in a way that is commensurate to us, whether equal or not, and hunting them is unnecessary, and the latter are Linnaen cousins, and also worthy of much better treatment than that. There does seem to be compelling arguments for laboratory use, but I am not scientifical enough to be able to judge. Is that your area at all?

I wonder how Chimp tastes? Sounds like a mission for SJ!!!!!!!!!!

Doing experiments on Chimps is becoming less and less common, and even against the law in many countries, because of their intelligence. Hell, even other monkeys appear pretty intelligent. I have been in a scientific environment in the past where Japanese Macaques were driven in their "chairs" (which is a kind of box made of acrylic) through the walkways along the researchers' rooms towards the experimental rooms. I will never forget the panicky look in the eyes of those animals, who were obviously fully aware what was going on.

The point I was trying to make was that as humans we have a choice to distinguish between more and less intelligent animals. I tend to classify dolphins as part of the former. So, I am somewhat revolted at the opinions in this thread that it is just OK to kill them, because we also kill cows and pigs, etc.

While I do not condone the practices of those protesters, and think they only make things worse, I have to admit that at least they act upon their ideals and beliefs. Unfortunately, this thread seems to have deteriorated to the extent that many are just parroting Takechan.

[Yokohammer]

Russell, I understand the emotional response but I think you're trying to draw an impossible line that will move around wildly depending on background, culture, and of course vested interests.

What about dogs and cats? They're intelligent and responsive, and clearly show emotions like fear and contentment. Are they really more intelligent than pigs and cows? Are farmed animals any less intelligent than wild animals?

Man, what a can of worms.

If you're going to eat meat you're going to take the life of an intelligent animal, degree notwithstanding. They are not just lumps of meat walking around. That's why I mentioned that vegans have a point in one of my previous posts. If you're fundamentally opposed to killing then eating animals becomes unconscionable. And since it's impossible to draw a clear line between intelligence levels in animals, not eating meat just becomes the right thing to do. As a race I believe that our future evolution will depend, in part, on coming to terms with how we treat and coexist with animals. Being human doesn't give us the right to do anything we like, just because we can. Rather, it places the responsibility of doing our best to manage the planet properly, without causing undue suffering or pain to any living creature, squarely on our human shoulders.

Like I said, I still eat meat, but the older I get the more I think about the animal life that I am partially responsible for taking and am trying to reduce my dependency (which is not easy if you've been a meat eater all your life). You can ridicule that if you like, but that's my honest opinion.

So my point: Trying to draw a line between animals that can be eaten with a clean conscious and those that can't is futile. Basically, you either eat meat or you don't.

[kurogane]

Nice post, YokoHammer

The point I was trying to make ................

...........was a good one and well done. I firmly believe there are other forms of intelligence worthy of a hierarchic valuation, esp. the primates and fancy fishies. I also spent enough time in the Kyoto U monkey pit to know it's horrific, and that they know it's horrific too. I had to stop going because it was so depressing, and I sort of enjoyed the monkey mosh part of it, where they were just sort of goofing around happily.

While I do not condone the practices of those protesters, and think they only make things worse,

That is the main point of my own arguments against them; plus it's just fun to piss off hysterical conformists. If they would STFU or at least engage in dialogue rather than simplistic, bigoted diatribe the whole horror show would likely end sooner. The Japanese have dug in their heels and will not be bullied into conforming to beliefs they don't share for people that don't have any right to enforce them. To my mind that is a more important victory. Ric O'Barry The Dolphin Guy is rather obviously a nice enough man, but what he is doing is on par with any colonial era exercise to root out and extinguish any disapproved native tradition, but I don't think he's smart enough or properly educated enough to realise it and in his own way is probably enough of a fanatic he wouldn't care if he did.

I have to admit that at least they act upon their ideals and beliefs.

Which is where we often differ: given the hysterical impotence of the protests and the overwhelming imperialism of their efforts I think it's all rather childish, and properly evil in a way. The protests are an internally oriented circle jerk of faith based ecstatic sanctimony. I will be very surprised to see all that many of them be gracious if and when the harvest does end. They are as failed as Good Christians as any missionaries that ever carried The White Man's Burden to places that didn't need it or want it.

[Wage Slave]

Agreed 100%. However, there is a danger that Sea Shepherd are winning this argument because stupid people are arguing that Sea Shepherd are committing wrong in talking about the hunt and committing wrong by taking pictures and video of it.

In fact what is wrong is that so much scarce resource is being devoted to something that has so little impact on the health of the oceans and ocean life. If they won and the hunt was stopped tomorrow the impact would be nil as far as any sensible measurement would detect. And yet vast resource is poured into it.

And that's what is really wrong with Sea Shepherd - They concentrate so much resource on a few emotionally charged and self aggrandizing causes rather than fighting the big, difficult battles that really matter.

The charge of racism/neocolonialism has some validity - you only have to look at the comments of their supporters. However, be careful or again they might win the argument. There is a similar hunt in the Faroe Islands under Denmark's watch and they are even more stuck in there. Up to and including sending boats to interfere with the hunters.

[Russell]

Russell, I understand the emotional response but I think you're trying to draw an impossible line that will move around wildly depending on background, culture, and of course vested interests.

What about dogs and cats? They're intelligent and responsive, and clearly show emotions like fear and contentment. Are they really more intelligent than pigs and cows? Are farmed animals any less intelligent than wild animals?

Man, what a can of worms.

If you're going to eat meat you're going to take the life of an intelligent animal, degree notwithstanding. They are not just lumps of meat walking around.

Hammer, all good points, but the intelligence of Chimps makes it nowadays not done to do experiments on them. If such a distinction cannot be drawn, then where is the limit? We humans appear to make our judgement based on how close an animal is perceived in terms of behavior to humans. And of course there is the genetic factor. Humans have 46 chromosomes, all great apes are genetically very similar to us and have 48 chromosomes, while people with Down syndrome are somewhere in between (47 chromosomes). If we have the right to kill or experiment on great apes, why not stop there and do the same with people with Down syndrome?

OK, so yes, it is a can of worms.

Now back to other animals, it is indeed a difficult matter to judge whether they can be eaten, but a rough rule seems to be that the more intelligent an animal is, the less well done it becomes to eat it.

Then, of course, there are pigs. These animals appear to be quite intelligent. Still I must admit I eat them. They just look so delicious, and their meat actually is. I guess some animals are just more equal than others...

[Yokohammer]

... We humans appear to make our judgement based on how close an animal is perceived in terms of behavior to humans. And of course there is the genetic factor. Humans have 46 chromosomes, all great apes are genetically very similar to us and have 48 chromosomes, while people with Down syndrome are somewhere in between (47 chromosomes). If we have the right to kill or experiment on great apes, why not stop there and do the same with people with Down syndrome? ...

The cannibalism angle did occur to me. If it's OK to eat dolphin then why isn't it OK to eat my idiot neighbour? (And to preempt anyone who might attack me over that comment, if you feel the urge you're not getting it so please don't bother).

Yes, humans judge everything with the very biased view that their own intelligence is the gold standard. It's amusing to observe how the scale and accuracy of that yardstick varies between groups and individuals (and in making that statement I am revealing my own bias). That is an unavoidable limitation of the mind. What is really necessary is imagination. That is, the capacity to imagine that there might be higher or different types of intelligence and give them the space and respect they deserve. Imagination is essential to empathy too. To me a lack of imagination is more frightening that a lack of intelligence (with the caveat that intelligence might be essential to imagination). One of the problems with religious and cultural fanaticism is that they can only function by extinguishing imagination. It might sound like I'm getting off topic, but if you remember that we're also talking about Sea Shepherd and their ilk it is all very apropos.

It is humans who arbitrarily decide that certain animals are less intelligent and therefore edible, without truly understanding the subject of intelligence themselves. In some ways it is similar to the bigotry that leads religious nutjobs to the conclusion that non-believers are less worthy and can therefore be murdered without guilt.

We have a long way to go.

[Samurai_Jerk]

So, do anyone of you think that killing Cetaceans in and of itself is worse (or better) than killing / eating Chimpanzees or do experiments on them?

The short answer is no. Now that I've got that out of the way, I don't think people should eat chimps since it seems they've been the source of some pretty nasty diseases. I don't care that they're smarter than other animals. I'm against animal experimentation inasmuch as it's unnecessary so testing shampoo and make up like we used to do is out. If it's necessary for medical advancement, I'm for it.

I'm with Yokohammer in that though I don't agree with vegans/vegetarians I will give them credit for having some consistency. Though I do wonder how much they care about all the worms and bugs that got cut up when the foundation for their home was laid or the field was plowed to grow the wheat in their organic bread. Not that I think those are the same. Even the most religious of Jains who do everything they can not to hurt another creature will inadvertently kill many in their lifetimes.

People are against eating animals that their society deems they shouldn't eat. People in America will shit their pants if you tell them you've tried basashi and that has nothing to do with the relative intelligence of horses. They think horses are beautiful and shouldn't be eaten. That's all there is to it. The intelligence argument is something that's been added later to justify their silly beliefs. I don't think it's coincidence that a lot of the animals people care about are more intelligent. Obviously the more intelligent an animal is the easier it is to relate to and feel sympathy for it. That's also why legitimate environmental groups and eco-terrorists both use these charismatic megafauna to raise awareness and money.

For the record, I did eat the kujira tataki last night.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Chimps are too close to humans, I think it's like cannibalism, gastro-intestinal incest, so to speak. The ewww-factor would make me not want to eat this.

And when it comes to being smart, humans surely don't rank very high. It's often enough those who think they are the brightest usually are just haughty

Whales, though, are like trees; higher beings, deities. And gods don't like to be eaten, they will punish us for doing so; sending us earthquakes, tsunamis, nuclear disasters, volcano outbreaks, floods, AIDS, ebola, the ten plagues etc pp. Simple cause and effect.

[Coligny]

You don't eat trees, you smoke them (apparently...)
Anyone tried to make a roofie out of a whale ?

[BigInJapan]

Ok, who hijacked Take's account to write something smart ?

A bit OT, but yeah, I think that last post removes any ambiguities about Takechimp's English skills.
The jig is up, so he might as well just drop the pidgin English from now on eh.

[matsuki]

So, do anyone of you think that killing Cetaceans in and of itself is worse (or better) than killing / eating Chimpanzees or do experiments on them?

The short answer is no. Now that I've got that out of the way, I don't think people should eat chimps since it seems they've been the source of some pretty nasty diseases.

Not that I'm against eating whale or fish...but the level of consumption by some people....well:

Mercury exposure at high levels can harm the brain, heart, kidneys, lungs, and immune system. High levels of methylmercury in the bloodstream of unborn babies and young children may harm the developing nervous system, making the child less able to think and learn.
Symptoms of methylmercury poisoning may include impairment of peripheral vision; disturbances in sensations ("pins and needles" feelings); lack of coordination; impairment of speech, hearing, walking; and muscle weakness.

http://www.medicinenet.com/mercury_pois ... rticle.htm