Afraid of turning Japanese?

[matsuki]

I was an athlete and a good looking lad before I came to this place then I come here and it's like I'm way too "niku shoku" I intimidate the females.

Welcome to my world...but in my experience, the ones that say that stuff tend to be nutters...either from birth or from sort of abuse/trauma. They want the girlymen boyband type, expecting the personality of a girl...but I doubt that's what they end up with.

[Coligny]

Welcome to my world...but in my experience, the ones that say that stuff tend to be nutters...either from birth or from sort of abuse/trauma. They want the girlymen boyband type, expecting the personality of a girl...but I doubt that's what they end up with.

A problem with a so easy solution...

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[Salty]

Maybe therein is the difference - people who are here simply for the job, or whatever, and don`t really care for the culture. No need to assimilate at all, except to the limited extent that helps with short term goal achievement.

I have a sugar momma but yea I get the point, kinda to add on to what you're saying. The whole "charisma man" shit dudes go through when they get here is odd to me. I was an athlete and a good looking lad before I came to this place then I come here and it's like I'm way too "niku shoku" I intimidate the females.

Of course it's not like I'm trying chase any of them either so I let my beard grow out and just lift weights and drink and fight... maybe I should open a Dojo in mainland ... hmmmm

Yes - I remember a conversation, but can`t quite place it – along the lines of the typical J-dude being a pansy-assed-girly-boy in comparison to the typical A-dude, so if that is what the girls are accustomed to, they might well be scared off if you weren`t sporting pimples. But then I also remember a seasoned salt saying that if you can`t get laid here, you can`t get laid anywhere.

But surely – this isn`t the culture that I was `a refer`n to. I was thinking more of the temples, the food, the language, the girls, … oh, wait… maybe you are spot on there.

[wuchan]

I let my beard grow out and just lift weights and drink and fight...

Are you me? That pretty much sums up my current life in Japan. Wake up, eat, "work", lift, drink then fight. It's kinda amazing they keep giving me permission to stay in the country considering half the time I'm brawling with the cops. As long as I'm totally shit faced the cops accept it and let me go in the morning while saying "wow, you're strong and can fight!" I could never get away with that shit back in the states.

[Salty]

I let my beard grow out and just lift weights and drink and fight...

Are you me? That pretty much sums up my current life in Japan. Wake up, eat, "work", lift, drink then fight. It's kinda amazing they keep giving me permission to stay in the country considering half the time I'm brawling with the cops. As long as I'm totally shit faced the cops accept it and let me go in the morning while saying "wow, you're strong and can fight!" I could never get away with that shit back in the states.

It is actually JAFO who has the beard and lifts weights. But then mastery at quoting isn`t so important when we are talking about culture. But fights? Never really been in one myself, so can`t really comment.

[Coligny]

I let my beard grow out and just lift weights and drink and fight...

Are you me? That pretty much sums up my current life in Japan. Wake up, eat, "work", lift, drink then fight. It's kinda amazing they keep giving me permission to stay in the country considering half the time I'm brawling with the cops. As long as I'm totally shit faced the cops accept it and let me go in the morning while saying "wow, you're strong and can fight!" I could never get away with that shit back in the states.

I'm almost certain he was not referencing streetfights with hobos and cops but more dojo / practice stuff...

[Dreamy_Peach]

I let my beard grow out and just lift weights and drink and fight...

Are you me? That pretty much sums up my current life in Japan.

Me too, without the beard or fighting, I do nothing but work and go to the gym.

I did go to my local boozer recently and it kind of reminded me of the opening post on the thread. I bumped into a bunch of old colleagues all of whom are old Japan hands of 10+ years. Their colleague was in Japan for a day so they took him to ... the Aldgate in Shibuya. From what I heard, dealing with J restaurants etc is sometimes just a load of unnecessary hassle - research, bookings, faffing around with stuff... sod it, just go to the British pub.
Tried, tested and hassle free.

I think it's what most blokes are looking for. The exotic stuff is just too much hassle after a while.

[yanpa]

The hassle is too much hassle sometimes. If you're organizing a meetup with a disparate bunch of people coming from different parts of the city and who will be arriving and departing at varying times and paying their bills individually (i.e. they haven't assimilated far enough to appoint a kanji and turn up at the designated time for a two reserved hour slot), ye olde pub is often a very convenient starting location.

Speaking entirely for myself I do find that once the meetup has mellowed and settled into a core of people in for the duration, moves to more interesting places can be made.

The Aldgate does an OK Cornish Pastie and is smoke-free.

[J.A.F.O]

I let my beard grow out and just lift weights and drink and fight...

Are you me? That pretty much sums up my current life in Japan. Wake up, eat, "work", lift, drink then fight. It's kinda amazing they keep giving me permission to stay in the country considering half the time I'm brawling with the cops. As long as I'm totally shit faced the cops accept it and let me go in the morning while saying "wow, you're strong and can fight!" I could never get away with that shit back in the states.

I own a Kickboxing/MMA Gym. If you ever want to drop by you're more than welcome. I'll p.m. you the details. Rah!

[omae mona]

I noticed something interesting among my Anglophone friends in Tokyo. The guys I know who are most fluent in Japanese are some of the least likely to have Japanese friends or hang out at Japanese bars and restaurants. And if you do get them into an izakaya they order fries, karaage, and pizza. I don't think it's a general trend but I'm starting to theorize that some people who become truly fluent in the language subconsciously do everything else they can to not otherwise go native. Maybe I need to go to grad school and look into this more deeply.

One of the most interesting threads on FG in quite a while.. sorry I missed all the excitement. Way too late, but I will comment on SJ's original post. I haven't quite seen that trend, but I think I can see where it's coming from. Maybe it's a different issue, but personally, as time passed in Japan, a bunch of my hang-ups went away. I think a voice in my head was saying "In Japan. Must do Japanese things" my first few years here. But that faded eventually. My last izakaya order happened to be ika shiokara, if I recall, but I won't hesitate to step into McDonald's nowadays if I feel like it. I've even been known to order french fries at the local kaiten-zushi. But it's just because my family wants to eat it, and because we see them on everybody else's table, more than any attempt to "not go native".

[kurogane]

I've even been known to order french fries at the local kaiten-zushi.

I would say you should stop that but I remembered that's how I often get my fries for a homemade burger and chips meal. Usually they are middlin' at best though, which is sad. I think they're frozen oven chips.

Anyways, just curious as to what JAFO and others mean by Doing Cultural Stuff. Other than helping thatch farmhouse roofs the only Culchural Things I have ever done is play soccer Japanese style and fecked in Japanese (which is fun at first but gets tired fast IME). Most hardcore culchur buffs I have met are either just plain dorky weirdos that would play Dun& Dragons at home, or are wrapped a touch tight for their own good, or are just genuinely interested and curious. Other than the last type I politely avoid them as often as possible, and only a small portion of the last types are ever very good at Japanese, and that includes their social know how, and quite a few of them get annoyingly disappointed and pedantic when they find out I do not develop my Inner Daniel-San. So, other than hanging out with Japanese and speaking mostly Japanese am I Unintegrated???? And if yes, WTF decided we had to do crap most Jpn don't even do anymore in order to be like them? I'll take a veteran bar man (say, like SJ) that drinks with and in Japanese over some wannabe animefied turdhead.

And even allowing for the dialect difference could we PLEAZE stop using the word Assimilation, because it makes my ass smile. The word is Integration. As to why, refer to Yokohammer's fine little discussion of why it isn't the proper word for a Japanese context somewhere early in this thread.

[Salty]

I've even been known to order french fries at the local kaiten-zushi.

I would say you should stop that but I remembered that's how I often get my fries for a homemade burger and chips meal. Usually they are middlin' at best though, which is sad. I think they're frozen oven chips.

Anyways, just curious as to what JAFO and others mean by Doing Cultural Stuff. ...

Just for you ….

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

and…….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Japan



But IMO – maybe it is just an appreciation for the culture, or at least not having a disdain for it, and not so much as `doing` anything. I have met quite a few people who were here simply for the job – and outside of Roppongi bars, were simply uninterested and lost. They had no intent to learn, or appreciate anything, other than the bars, suds, and maybe a girl on the side.

[kurogane]

Thanks. We must have missed those references in Anthropology Skool

I get what you mean there. I find the idea that I (or any like me) am unintegrated or bubble bound to be mildly ridiculous, but I no longer have the mental energy to think being a geek or dork is somehow admirable so I rarely defend myself. I do have friends in Kyoto that fit that last description you wrote, though, and after 10 or 15 years of them never learning even how to order lunch I find seeing them occasionally is more than enough. Nice guys, but too much work. Last summer I was very pleasantly surprised at the general level of Japanese skill amongst the Kanto Crowd of FG. Kyoto must have some sort of Bubble Boy magnet; they are all artist/musician/English teachers as well, so maybe that's a factor. Plus the average IQ amongst them isn't exactly troposhperic, though innate language ability is not always a function of general IQ. I know some right morons that are native level in their second language.

[Takechanpoo]

it seems like making a living together with natives is important to learn the language.
actually just look at gaijin sumo wrestlers japanese skill. its very fluent and natural UNLIKE most of you ordinary fuckin gaijins' eternally awkward japanese.
my guess is probably because they literally interact skin-to-skin with j-sumo pigs while living and eating together under the same roof.

[kurogane]

Interesting that you think that all that many FG Sumo wrestler's Japanese is 'fluent' and 'natural'. One might almost wonder if your own Japanese is good enough to make an accurate judgement

[Salty]

it seems like making a living together with natives is important to learn the language.
actually just look at gaijin sumo wrestlers japanese skill. its very fluent and natural UNLIKE most of you ordinary fuckin gaijins' eternally awkward japanese.
my guess is probably because they literally interact skin-to-skin with j-sumo pigs while living and eating together under the same roof.

I hear that those sumo boys are forced to eat chanko every time they make a language mistake....

[kurogane]

Is Chanko Kanto-ese for something I would start with a U instead of a Cha???

[Salty]

Is Chanko Kanto-ese for something I would start with a U instead of a Cha???

About the same IMO....

[Samurai_Jerk]

Interesting that you think that all that many FG Sumo wrestler's Japanese is 'fluent' and 'natural'. One might almost wonder if your own Japanese is good enough to make an accurate judgement

A lot of them do speak Japanese very well but I think that since every wrestler Japanese or otherwise gives the same canned responses in their post fight interviews, rote memorization of those responses probably makes them sound a lot more fluent than they are.

[kurogane]

Dickish as it is going to sound (How Many Kanji Do I know!!???) I would not accuse many of them of sounding Natural or Fluent, but I agree with your theory, as would Occam and his scissors. Konishiki is actually quite good, and maybe it's his public persona but he isn't really very good, and Akebono sounds like a 4 year old. Then again, neither of them speak English well. And if the native Special Olympians are setting the bar it can't be that hard to sound like one. Even Chiyonofuji can sound like a retard at times and he's probably only one of 8 sumos that didn't naturally qualify for the short bus.

I have always wondered how much of a part chronic repetitive concussions play. Their brains must be like rotten plums by the time they finish. Plus the stress of being that fucking fat since age 13. What a ridiculous sport. It's like the foot binding of the athletic world.

[Mike Oxlong]

Dickish as it is going to sound (How Many Kanji Do I know!!???) I would not accuse many of them of sounding Natural or Fluent, but I agree with your theory, as would Occam and his scissors. Konishiki is actually quite good, and maybe it's his public persona but he isn't really very good, and Akebono sounds like a 4 year old. Then again, neither of them speak English well. And if the native Special Olympians are setting the bar it can't be that hard to sound like one. Even Chiyonofuji can sound like a retard at times and he's probably only one of 8 sumos that didn't naturally qualify for the short bus.

I have always wondered how much of a part chronic repetitive concussions play. Their brains must be like rotten plums by the time they finish. Plus the stress of being that fucking fat since age 13. What a ridiculous sport. It's like the foot binding of the athletic world.

I think the Mongolians raised the bar both athletically and linguistically.

[kurogane]

Yes, good point. I quite enjoyed their more athletic Chiyonofuji style approach to training and fitness, and apparently Mongolian and Japanese are plug and play. Like Jpn & Korean, perhaps? Not that I really know.

So, to veer a bit: in URHOMO did that Mongolian wrestler Asashoryu that shot to the top like a rocket and then fall even harder deserve the harsh treatment he received or did it just look like they wanted a whipping boy? My impression was that having so graciously bestowed upon a lesser such honours and fame and perhaps a passport that they went full monkey brain when he repeatedly showed he was just a nice, very talented Mongolian kid from the sticks that occasionally misbehaved. I never followed it that closely, but I remember thinking it was time for a cull to clear the bosses out of their perches.

[matsuki]

A lot of them do speak Japanese very well but I think that since every wrestler Japanese or otherwise gives the same canned responses in their post fight interviews, rote memorization of those responses probably makes them sound a lot more fluent than they are.

THIS x10000

It's when you hear an actual convo that you see how fluent they really are.

[Mike Oxlong]

Yes, good point. I quite enjoyed their more athletic Chiyonofuji style approach to training and fitness, and apparently Mongolian and Japanese are plug and play. Like Jpn & Korean, perhaps? Not that I really know.

So, to veer a bit: in URHOMO did that Mongolian wrestler Asashoryu that shot to the top like a rocket and then fall even harder deserve the harsh treatment he received or did it just look like they wanted a whipping boy? My impression was that having so graciously bestowed upon a lesser such honours and fame and perhaps a passport that they went full monkey brain when he repeatedly showed he was just a nice, very talented Mongolian kid from the sticks that occasionally misbehaved. I never followed it that closely, but I remember thinking it was time for a cull to clear the bosses out of their perches.

I dunno how related their language is with Japanese either. And I wasn't around nor into sumo when the current bosses were rocking the cashba in their loincloths. My impression was that Morning Blue Dragon was pretty sympatico with the local land and customs. Trained with a certain ferocity, and demanded same of underlings. Generous to a fault when not in training mode. Prone to hitting the bottle, and dallying with ladies of lesser virtue after dark. Somewhat prone to anger and violence when besotted. So just what was the problem, eh.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Remember the thing with Asashoryu is he was already on thin ice for breaking a guy's nose in a bar fight and then he sat out a tournament due to a back injury but was filmed in Mongolia doing this:

Mongolian grammar is like Japanese and Korean but I don't think it has all the cognates that make it so much easier for Koreans to pick up Japanese.

By the way, went I went to Japanese school the Chosonjok destroyed all of us.

[J.A.F.O]

Welcome to my world...but in my experience, the ones that say that stuff tend to be nutters...either from birth or from sort of abuse/trauma. They want the girlymen boyband type, expecting the personality of a girl...but I doubt that's what they end up with.

In either case I've dealt with crazy and ... fuck that. They can have their boy band girls.

[matsuki]

Welcome to my world...but in my experience, the ones that say that stuff tend to be nutters...either from birth or from sort of abuse/trauma. They want the girlymen boyband type, expecting the personality of a girl...but I doubt that's what they end up with.

In either case I've dealt with crazy and ... fuck that. They can have their boy band girls.

[Samurai_Jerk]

nutters

You're American. Speak American.

I had a Japanese buddy who was ripped and used to have the same problem with girls not liking his muscles. Of course he was also into kiddie porn and once said he almost raped a girl who he didn't realize was fighting back because he was such a good grappler so maybe it wasn't just the muscles that was turning the ladies off.

[matsuki]

crazies?

Many many moons ago when I was 20...I started to put my arm around a girl on my bed as we were watching a movie. I knew she had never been with a guy but she totally flipped out. I calmed her down and and the rest of the date seemed fine.....until the next day when the friend that introduced me to her said she claimed "he tried to rape me!!" When I explained, the friend talked to her again, and called me back laughing...she's never even kissed a guy before so she panicked. She was cute but soo much drama and sooo sheltered...I bet she's an arasaatee virgin now.

[Samurai_Jerk]

crazies?

Nutjobs.