Pension back payments?

[ADHWGT]

So I've been living in Japan for five years, self-employed, always paying my taxes and hoken bills, but never enrolled in the national pension system. All of a sudden I got this letter from the Japan Pension Service stating, in English (among other languages!), that I'm "required by law to enroll in the national pension system and pay contributions".

Of course I'd rather not, seeing as it's quite pricey, not to mention that I've already been paying towards my national pension account in my home country (which unfortunately doesn't have one of those bilateral deals, I forget what they're called, with Japan – so what I paid back there probably won't affect what I have to pay here) since as long as I can remember, and I don't exactly see myself staying here until I retire.

After a bit of googling, it seems like there's no way to wriggle out of this whole thing. So instead, my question is: when I enroll, is the Pension Service going to demand full back payments for the previous five years, plus interest? (Needless to say, this would amount to a fortune by my standards...) Some people claim they can't demand more than two years of back payments, others ten. Or will they be happy as long as I start making the payments from now on, after I enroll? Has anyone here been through this process and lived to tell the tale?

[wuchan]

So I've been living in Japan for five years, self-employed, always paying my taxes and hoken bills, but never enrolled in the national pension system. All of a sudden I got this letter from the Japan Pension Service stating, in English (among other languages!), that I'm "required by law to enroll in the national pension system and pay contributions".

Of course I'd rather not, seeing as it's quite pricey, not to mention that I've already been paying towards my national pension account in my home country (which unfortunately doesn't have one of those bilateral deals, I forget what they're called, with Japan – so what I paid back there probably won't affect what I have to pay here) since as long as I can remember, and I don't exactly see myself staying here until I retire.

After a bit of googling, it seems like there's no way to wriggle out of this whole thing. So instead, my question is: when I enroll, is the Pension Service going to demand full back payments for the previous five years, plus interest? (Needless to say, this would amount to a fortune by my standards...) Some people claim they can't demand more than two years of back payments, others ten. Or will they be happy as long as I start making the payments from now on, after I enroll? Has anyone here been through this process and lived to tell the tale?

You are already enrolled, everyone that pays tax automatically is. You are "required" to pay by law. Here is where things get strange, there is no penalty for not paying. All they can do is pester you, which they will, but they can't take money from your account or arrest you. A large number of Japanese people don't pay either.

Recently they changed how the system works. Now you can pay back up to three years and only need to pay for ten years in order to receive benefits at retirement.

Things may change in the future with the my number thing.

[wagyl]

Good news that you now only need ten years history in the system to get something back. http://www.nenkin.go.jp/shiraberu/kaiga ... afletJ.pdf

They keep changing the rules on how much back payment they seek. Currently it is 5 years, but that scheme is only until the end of September next year. Who knows how many years they will seek after that. https://www.gov-online.go.jp/useful/art ... 208/1.html

[ADHWGT]

You are already enrolled, everyone that pays tax automatically is. You are "required" to pay by law. Here is where things get strange, there is no penalty for not paying. All they can do is pester you, which they will, but they can't take money from your account or arrest you. A large number of Japanese people don't pay either.

Recently they changed how the system works. Now you can pay back up to three years and only need to pay for ten years in order to receive benefits at retirement.

I see. One of the (many) documents I was sent says "Please ensure you submit the report, or you may not be eligible to receive your pension if it is unpaid due to omission of reporting. For persons who should be covered by the National Pension system but for whom no report has been submitted, the Japan Pension Service may proces the registration of said person and issue a demand for payment." I'm a bit surprised by how vague this is – to me it sounds like "Pay up... or be warned that you may have to pay up in the future!!!"

By the way, where did you hear that they can only demand three years of back payments? I've been hearing so many different numbers...

Oh, and would any of you happen to know if this can somehow affect my chances of getting my next visa extension? This was another thing I heard somewhere, but so far the immigration office has only demanded proof of municipal tax payment, and I've had no problem getting extensions without making any pension payments...

In any case, I guess my current options are:

1. Submit the report ("report of pension entitlement"), pay up whatever they demand (a bit of a silver lining is that this is apparently tax deductible).

2. Submit the report, enter "2016" or something in the "eligibility date" field and hope they won't actually double check how long I've been here.

3. Do nothing, and see if they end up sending me a bill anyway.

[wagyl]

A lot of information and answers to many of your questions will be found by searching for "pension" or "nenkin" on this site.

Without going into great detail, not being enrolled in the national pension is not currently an impediment to a visa extension, nor has it been in the past. However, as Wuchan alluded to, the My Number personal identification number system has, as one of its unstated purposes, eliminating non-enrollment in the system. Rules can change in the future, and they have changed in the past. Included in that is that Japan may in the future enter into an agreement with Sweden regarding pension entitlements, but I will admit that the chances of that happening depend largely on how many Japanese employees are sent to Sweden for a number of years by their companies.

Don't read too much into unusual or vague English language in Japanese government documents. That is not uncommon.

As it stands, your biggest risk from not being enrolled is that you will not receive a Japanese pension. You are obliged to enrol, but that is the only penalty if you do not. Some people think that the pension received is a good return. Other people, and this includes many Japanese, are not enrolled even though they are obliged to be.

I wish you would take part in the rest of the site, and not just your own threads where you are getting your questions answered.

[ADHWGT]

As it stands, your biggest risk from not being enrolled is that you will not receive a Japanese pension. You are obliged to enrol, but that is the only penalty if you do not. Some people think that the pension received is a good return. Other people, and this includes many Japanese, are not enrolled even though they are obliged to be.

Thank you, this was very informative. And sorry for being so selfish and only posting when I have questions I need answered. I'll have a look around and see if there's anything I can contribute elsewhere on the site.

[wangta]

So I've been living in Japan for five years, self-employed, always paying my taxes and hoken bills, but never enrolled in the national pension system. All of a sudden I got this letter from the Japan Pension Service stating, in English (among other languages!), that I'm "required by law to enroll in the national pension system and pay contributions".

Of course I'd rather not, seeing as it's quite pricey, not to mention that I've already been paying towards my national pension account in my home country (which unfortunately doesn't have one of those bilateral deals, I forget what they're called, with Japan – so what I paid back there probably won't affect what I have to pay here) since as long as I can remember, and I don't exactly see myself staying here until I retire.

After a bit of googling, it seems like there's no way to wriggle out of this whole thing. So instead, my question is: when I enroll, is the Pension Service going to demand full back payments for the previous five years, plus interest? (Needless to say, this would amount to a fortune by my standards...) Some people claim they can't demand more than two years of back payments, others ten. Or will they be happy as long as I start making the payments from now on, after I enroll? Has anyone here been through this process and lived to tell the tale?

Here are some facts mate. To renew your visa you must have paid citizens' tax. They will ask for proof of it. Re other payments - you're sposed to be enrolled in Kokumin Kenko Hoken or Shakai Hoken for the health insurance payments to the Japanese National Health insurance scheme. For your visa.

There was talk back around 5 yrs or more ago that gaijin who don't pay the Jp NHI won't get a visa but you still don't have to show your card when you lodge your visa renewal application. Immi will check, tho, of that I'm sure. They will just get up your NHI records from your ward office.

As for My Number somehow making everything transparent to Immi etc - Immi can and does access your ward office records. They can check easily to see if you're paying Health Insurance to the national system. As for enforcing the pension payments - nah, this depends on your ward office. I know for a fact that Kawasaki aint enforcing shit on that count. People I know who have lived in Kawasaki going on for 10 yrs don't pay the national penion even while their office knows that the Kawasaki Pension office is demanding it.

Did you get a blue pension book? That seems to scare a lot of gaijin but again plenty of gaijin have a blue book sitting in their apato and aint got one payment entry recorded. As people said here, they"ll hassle you but they don't steal the pension owed from your bank account unlike your citizens' tax if you don't pay it and unlike the health insurance if you don't pay it.

As for whether you should pay it or not - 15,000 yen a month, they're fucking having a laugh as far as many of us are concerned. What a load of crap. Just look at the Japanese, some of whom paid around 80,000 bucks in my native country's money in their lifetime and are collecting about 100,000 yen or whatever it is per month in retirement.

In Oz, you don't even have to pay the national pension - you can collect about 150,000 yen in Jp money per month plus discounts for many services that add up to around 2000,000 yen or more Jp money when you're 55 and you don't have enough savings or assets or any at all to pass the eligibility test. Save your money for your old age in your own country if you will retire there or save for elsewhere if you don't plan to live in Japan after retirement.

Fuck em if you aint retiring here. I can see the day coming when they will seize that from our bank accounts but most of us will be gone before that happens.

[canman]

For what it is worth, I have been here 24 years, and never joined the pension system until last year when I got a full time job at a national school. I kept getting the letters telling me I had not paid, so I went into the office and they asked me to back pay two years, which will be added to my new pension, and then there will be no problems. As mentioned above, they do threaten to take your car, house, salary, first born, but in reality they can't. The lady at the office even said so, it is only a technique to scare people. On a side note, being really unlucky, Canada has a reciprocal treaty with Japan allowing pension money saved in Canada can be transferred to Japan, but while living and working in Canada, I only worked in Quebec and the bastards who have their own pension system(of course they do), do not have a reciprocal treaty with japan, so I lose that money in the QPP!

[wangta]

Thanks for that info. I know a gaijin who worked yrs ago outside of Tokyo before coming back to Japan a few yrs ago and she was given a 'menjo' which I think is exemption from her wards in her other residences at that time. I know that the wards were easier then and it was our choice but good on her not paying.

Every year before tax time she receives a record from the Pension office telling her she hasn't paid and to pay up but she won't. She got a blue book from the pension office about 3 yrs ago when she lived elsewhere and ignored it. She had no communication with them but her ward office probably contacted them. She chucked it out.

[wagyl]

I only worked in Quebec and the bastards who have their own pension system(of course they do), do not have a reciprocal treaty with japan, so I lose that money in the QPP!

I think you have a misunderstanding about the operation of transnational pension agreements. To get even a brass cent back in Japanese pension, you need to have been contributing for a certain threshold period of time. It used to be 25 years but now YAY!! is only 10 years. In some, but not all, of the pension agreements entered into by Japan, part of the treaty is to agree that in calculating the contribution period, you can add together the period making contributions to Japan and also the period making contributions in the other country ahem province. Of course I recognise that Quebec and Japan do not have such an agreement (and are probably unlikely to enter into one). However, with the reduction to 10 years contribution period, the chances of you actually getting something back for your premiums has increased massively. Neither jurisdiction actually transfers money, the Japanese pension system does not receive money from the foreign pension system to make the payments. However, you might be entitled to pension payments from both systems, if you meet the qualifications for each individual system. What the pension treaties do is increase the chances of you meeting the Japanese qualifications, and also give you an exemption from having to make contributions to multiple pensions simultaneously.

As to whether you will lose the benefit of contributions to QPP, that all depends on the QPP rules. As far as I can see, you receive a pension if you have contributed for a year or more. If that describes you, you can get a Quebec pension. You don't even have to have stopped working.

You can buy me a drink on your 60th birthday. Although it may be financially advantageous to wait until your 65th birthday. Bigger drinks. Even if you do have to go down to Société des alcools du Québec to get them.

[canman]

Wagyl, you are the man! I misunderstood the system, and thought that when they talked about a reciprocal agreement that the two countries would put the money together whatever country you decided to receive your pension in. But all this means is that when I turn 65 or whatever age they raise the age of retirement to in the future, I will receive a small pension from the QPP. Hopefully the Canadian dollar will not have cratered by then meaning whatever money I receive will be all lost in the exchange process.

[matsuki]

Count me in as another who misunderstood. So if one were to say, work in the US 10 years, work in Japan 12 years, move back to the US and work for another 25, at retirement, they would apply for benefits separately in both countries? (or are you disqualified from the Japanese benefits if you are no longer a resident?)

[wagyl]

Count me in as another who misunderstood. So if one were to say, work in the US 10 years, work in Japan 12 years, move back to the US and work for another 25, at retirement, they would apply for benefits separately in both countries? (or are you disqualified from the Japanese benefits if you are no longer a resident?)

Who do you think I am? Google? Without looking at the US situation specifically, I did see for Quebec

Please note that receiving benefits from another country in no way reduces the amount of a pension under the Québec Pension Plan.

And as for receiving the Japanese pension while living overseas, what do you think that all those silver couples in the Philippines do? Anyway, the answer is in the link, also in English, in the third post on this thread. http://www.nenkin.go.jp/shiraberu/kaiga ... afletJ.pdf
As a practical matter, if there is a social security treaty, then you apply for the foreign pension via the social security organisation in your resident country.

After working 47 years, your example will deserve to retire on (a) healthy pension(s).

[wagyl]

Hopefully the Canadian dollar will not have cratered by then meaning whatever money I receive will be all lost in the exchange process.

Hopefully it is not the Franc Québécois by that stage

[matsuki]

Who do you think I am? Google?

Ask Jeeves Wagyl is far superior to google!

Thanks for the info, assuming the yen (YenCoin?) isn't 500 to the USD by that time, it will be quite useful.

[wagyl]

As always, the US makes it more complex! https://www.ssa.gov/international/Agree ... n.html#wep https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10045.pdf

[inflames]

As always, the US makes it more complex! https://www.ssa.gov/international/Agree ... n.html#wep https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10045.pdf

Yeah, the US has this, which counts against you when you have a pension earned when you weren't paying into Social Security. Fortunately, the "windfall" from Japan's pension is pitiful.

[wangta]

I hate to destroy illusions even when they're rather touching like this board's grown men thinking that govts keep their promises and never pull the rug out from under taxpayers and restrospectively change the rules/laws on em or bring in new ones to fuck over those who saved and don't depend on or get much from govt.

There's a bloke called Hoofin who has a blog and deals with pension issues. Seems a good bloke but how he has this child-like naivety as a grown man that govts especially Japanese govts will keep their promises, is beyond me.

Never be such a naive nancy to think that the J Gov is somehow going to be different and pay you all any real money because it forced you to make payments each month for what is essentially a pyramid scheme. How many times do you have to hear that our govts are broke? They're broke from corruption, pork barrelling and in the case of some like the Oz govt from thieving ordinary people's savings to redistribute to just about everybody else to buy votes.

I always thought the Tea Party in the US were mostly fuckers but one thing was correct - most of our govts are borrowing huge amounts of money to pay the interest on the debts they racked up. In Oz Kevin Rudd's Labor govt started borrowing again after the previous one got us in the black - borrowing for a fake stimulus that did jackshit and to pay billions to the asylum seeker industry when every chancer and opportunist was encouraged to jump on boats in the ME and Africa and rock up to Oz. More votes for Rudd and other scum from an increasing voting bloc that was getting freebies like housing and money on the backs of Aussies.

I can't be arsed finding them for you but try and do a bit of research on the long list of broken promises by govts that call themselves 'democratic' and governed or govern developed countries. About the money people owned and paid to the system supposedly for their own future stability.

Revolving around bail-ins of ordinary people's money so they can't access it, bail-outs to fucking cunts like Goldman Sachs, restrictions on how much people can take of their own pension funds, fucked up pension funds that don't exist anymore, hallo Germany, regular retirement fund changes that keep putting the age you can get your OWN money up, slashing of eligibility for pensions etc.

So-called democratic govts have changed the goalposts many times - you really think a Japanese govt run by the grandsons of fascist families can be trusted to give you your pension money back other than something like 50 bucks a month if that in the future? Dream on. Waste your fucking money cause the Gov will always make new laws and the many sheep around these days are too busy staring at their smartphones or doing slogans with hashtags and thinking that's social activism to even notice.