Non-Japanese Japanese Girls...

[Rezz]

Bear with me, the title will make sense if you read on!

Ok, I've been living and teaching in Japan for almost 4 years now, so I'm not exactly a newbie anymore (although compared to some of you guys I am!) and I've reached a point where I can pretty much figure out most students I come in contact with. I've managed (just!) to figure out my Nihonjin wife over the last 2 years too... kinda.

Now heres the wierd/stupid part: I've noticed that there seems to be MAJOR personality issues with Japanese women in particular who have lived overseas long-term (mostly the ones who have lived in the US). Now, I try and be friendly and frank with these high-level students, I get the impression that they understand the western culture alot more than the usual low-level students, so I put pressure on them to back up their opinions with reasons as to why they said what they said. Now, when it comes to them asking me for my opinoin ("and what about you?"), I tell them... then they GET ON THE OFFENSIVE!

It seems that whatever you say to these "Non-Japanese Japanese", they disagree with you... almost like they're trying to reaffirm their "wersternization-ness". They'll argue with you about a stupid point, until it literally gets s-t-u-p-i-d, then they quickly change the subject. It seems to me that because they've spent alot of time (usually a few years at least) overseas, they suddenly loose all connection they have with their Japanese roots and take on this supposed "Western" persona, where they speak their mind badly, disagree with anything even though they don't have grounds to, and basically act unnaturally.

It really looks bad... someone acting unnatural. Thats the way it occurs to me. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Sorry for the long post!

/Rezz

[Big Booger]

I know the type. As long as they are paying for the lessons.. keep it up. I also hear what you are saying about getting to know your J-wifey only in the last two years....

They think for the most part that to be western you have to disagree, be assertive, inject your opinion on everything, etc...

Maybe you should try being "Japaneseque" and agree with everything. Nod your head. Smile. Do all the mannerism that you'd consider to be Japanese. Offer them tea during the lesson.. or some nasty snack.. like green tea candy LOL

I wonder if Japanese think they are really strange.. or if they act this way only with you because you are foreign?

[cstaylor]

I wonder if Japanese think they are really strange.. or if they act this way only with you because you are foreign?

I'm not a language teacher, but I've interacted with this kind of Japanese person before. What's worked for me is "dog on the bone" technique: never give ground, keep chewing that argument until there's nothing but white bone left. Then go bury it over a couple of beers.

[Rezz]

Maybe it's just the non-Japanese Japanese trying to "show off" their new outlook on things... something that they think is such a big advancement over your standard everyday Japanese person. Maybe?

Whatever the case, it's annoying. I wouldn't want to go out and have dinner or spend time with such a person. Sure, showing off your new take on reality to other Japanese might be ok, but why do they have to carry on like that with foreigners?

That said, there are a heck of alot of high-level students who have spent years overseas who really are cool and down to earth...

[DJEB]

Maybe you should try being "Japaneseque" and agree with everything. Nod your head. Smile. Do all the mannerism that you'd consider to be Japanese. Offer them tea during the lesson.. or some nasty snack.. like green tea candy LOL

I had the same thought. I learned the fine art of agreeing with people to shut them up a long time ago. (If that doesn't work, use the CST technique.)

[kamome]

If you thinking have them as a student is bad, trying having one of those non-Japanese Japanese as a colleague at work. I had a terrible personality clash with a J-girl who had gone to a top US university and obviously was a smart girl, but she also was the rudest biotch I've ever come across. She had horrible mood swings and would ijime (bully) other Japanese who had similar background to her.

She was the worst-case example. With some exceptions, other Westernized Japanese I've come across are generally nice but are quite stuck up about a lot of things. They also will never acknowledge that a foreigner's Japanese language ability is even worthy of notice.

[cstaylor]

They also will never acknowledge that a foreigner's Japanese language ability is even worthy of notice.

Unless that person's a superior at work, you can blow them off easily by whipping out the tried-and-true "sure you can rub phrases together into correct grammar, but so can American 6 year-olds. Do you have cultural literacy?"

They can speak, but can they communicate?

[cstaylor]

I had a terrible personality clash with a J-girl who had gone to a top US university and obviously was a smart girl

I wouldn't go that far... parent's bought her way in (foreign students usually get more slack because they pay at least twice the tuition and various other fees).

[Neo-Rio]

I get the impression that they understand the western culture alot more than the usual low-level students, so I put pressure on them to back up their opinions with reasons as to why they said what they said. Now, when it comes to them asking me for my opinoin ("and what about you?"), I tell them... then they GET ON THE OFFENSIVE!

Just thought I'd point out what you might be doing to get the reactions you are getting.

[Rezz]

I get the impression that they understand the western culture alot more than the usual low-level students, so I put pressure on them to back up their opinions with reasons as to why they said what they said. Now, when it comes to them asking me for my opinoin ("and what about you?"), I tell them... then they GET ON THE OFFENSIVE!

Just thought I'd point out what you might be doing to get the reactions you are getting.

Ha! I didn't even realize I worded it that way... oh well, what I meant was that I *encourage* them to back up their opinions with reasons.

I wouldn't say the student got on the offensive because of any pressure I may have put on them. Usually they get on the offensive after I've given my opinion... and only then. Almost like they want to teach ME about western society or something (if the conversation was heading that way).

[cstaylor]

Almost like they want to teach ME about western society or something (if the conversation was heading that way).

Gotta watch what you say... you might be doing the same in reverse (teaching them about their culture) without knowing it.

[Rezz]

Almost like they want to teach ME about western society or something (if the conversation was heading that way).

Gotta watch what you say... you might be doing the same in reverse (teaching them about their culture) without knowing it.

The conversations I'm referring to are always about western society. I know what you mean about "teaching them about their culture without knowing it" though.

[Andocrates]

You are the teacher right? You should be able to teach without getting your emotions involved. That's why it's important to have a healthy social life away from the classroom.

The greatest teachers I ever had were those guys who always said crap that made me think. These girls went to America, not just to learn English, but to learn American culture. In the same way they want to come to your class to keep up on english they also want to keep up their critical thinking skills.

Also as alluded to in the message above maybe you are creating a subtle, but hostile classroom, and only the girls who speak good english can catch it.

If everything you say is "In America it's this way" (we so rock) That crap gets irritating. It doesn't matter if you are from the greatest country on earth, no one want to have their own country dumped on.

[Rezz]

You are the teacher right? You should be able to teach without getting your emotions involved. That's why it's important to have a healthy social life away from the classroom.

The greatest teachers I ever had were those guys who always said crap that made me think. These girls went to America, not just to learn English, but to learn American culture. In the same way they want to come to your class to keep up on english they also want to keep up their critical thinking skills.

Also as alluded to in the message above maybe you are creating a subtle, but hostile classroom, and only the girls who speak good english can catch it.

If everything you say is "In America it's this way" (we so rock) That crap gets irritating. It doesn't matter if you are from the greatest country on earth, no one want to have their own country dumped on.

No man, no. Thats not it at all...

I'm Australian, so there goes that "In America it's this way we so rock" thing. I don't preach the virtues of western society at all. I merely put up a question/situation and ask them what they think about it or what they would do. I wait for them to respond, and if they ask my opinion then I give it. Like I say, I've done this for almost 4 years now, and I don't just jump in the classroom and start digging holes for myself to fall into.

They simply want to know my opinion, I give it, then they just reject whatever I say, for whatever reason, simple. I thought that was strange (never encountered it until I met mature Japanese ladies with high-level English skills). I might add that all the other non-English speaking Europeans that have high-level English skills seem to be able to offer a different opinion without causing offense like the non-Japanese Japanese ladies do. Just luck on the Europeans part?

If anything I try to get the students to relax as much as possible, and I've been commended by alot of students for that, so that hostile classroom thing isn't an issue.

[GomiGirl]

I'm still a bit lost on the original question.. perhaps if you could give an example of the sorts of topics that bring on this sort of behavior?

At first read I thought you were talking about Japanese people who dumped all over Japan based on their "Western" experience.. a bit like an ex-smoker who is a rabid anti-smoker or the born-again Christian who is more dogmatic than other Christians etc...

But after reading the post again, I am not really sure what you are talking about!!

[cstaylor]

They simply want to know my opinion, I give it, then they just reject whatever I say, for whatever reason, simple. I thought that was strange (never encountered it until I met mature Japanese ladies with high-level English skills).

Give us some examples.

[cstaylor]

the born-again Christian who is more dogmatic than other Christians etc...

Don't we have a resident born-again on staff here?

[GomiGirl]

[Rezz]

GomiGirl: There is no question. I just wanted to post and see if I wasn't the only one who has had this experience, thats all.

cstaylor: One lesson that I remember most was about teenage crime. I asked them what they'd do if one of their teens had just been arrested (there was a statistics sheet, a short newspaper article and a "Letters to the Editor" section with replies to the article from distraught mothers). N-JJ (non-Japane... ) replies: "I'd probably be really angry, I'd go to the police station and pick him up then take him home and stop him from seeing his friends and watching TV etc for a month, or something like that...".
She then asked for my opinion to which I said "I'd do the same, except I'd try and talk to him more, really try and see why he wanted to do such a stupid thing. I'd also reassure him that I'm not angry at him, but angry for what he did. She then says "Thats too soft don't you think? If you're too easy, he'll steal again. You should be more responsible for him, right?" I started talking about peer pressure at this point, and that my little brother had a similar situation years ago, but she kept coming back to the "too soft" thing and really wouldn't let go.
I can't remember what she said exactly, but the vibe I was getting was like stand over tactics or something... you know, like because she's spent some years in a foreign country, that she somehow knew what was up more than what I did. She's unmarried without kids by the way...

[ramchop]

I'd also reassure him that I'm not angry at him, but angry for what he did.

Is there really a difference? You sound too soft to me :P

[Big Booger]

I'd of beat his ass with a razor strap. Then threaten him with the law of Islam. No more handsies if ye stealzies..

[Rezz]

I'd also reassure him that I'm not angry at him, but angry for what he did.

Is there really a difference? You sound too soft to me :P

Thats it! I'm out... no more explaining from me.

Thanks FG's for helping me waste 3-odd hours at work!

[den4]

I had this one student that went to Germany that tried to speak as fast as possible with the mindset that if you spoke fast, you spoke well....but the student was a guy, so that may be a totally different argument...

On the women student thing, or fellow worker OLs, it's more likely a Superiority Complex hidden behind an Inferiority Complex....the J-women go to the US and find how inferior their understanding is of the big wide world, then they overcompensate when they return to Japan, by being overbearing in what they think is how they should behave now that they've been gaijinized....

[American Oyaji]

Maybe any Japanese female that has slept with one of us round eyes has been "gaijinized" ?

[Andocrates]

I wish to retract my last comments. And replace it with "some people just suck, you just don't know how much they suck till you speak the same language."

[cstaylor]

I wish to retract my last comments. And replace it with "some people just suck, you just don't know how much they suck till you speak the same language."

Amen to that. After a couple of years of language and culture practice, you can pick out the bad apples pretty easily.