Radical difference between East and West regarding marriage

[Maciamo]

[GomiGirl]

Again Macimo you want to try to sum up everything into a neat little generalised package.

While I am not doubting that this is what you have found out from discussing with all sorts of people, I am curious to know why it is necessary for you to put everybody into groups.

Japanese people think X

Western people think Y

We should be opening up the lines of communication rather than putting up barriers of pre-judging a situation based on cultural or racial stereotypes.

Comparing the legal aspects is one thing.. but comparing what is the relationship in the "average" house is limiting as I am yet to see a true average house or relationship.

[Crispy]

Yeah, that kind of stuff was okay for me as a student (you basically summarized my textbook on Japanese marriages from a class two years ago), but now that I am in the real world, those generalizations aren't as valuable as they used to be.

[maraboutslim]

I guess it would be accurate enough for a high school term paper but that's about it. I agree it is over generalized.

btw, nursery school is not always expensive. There are public facilities - hoikuen for 6months to 6 years old and yochien for 4 to 6 years old and the cost is something like $100 or $200 a month, or was when I was in Japan anyway. Private day care is expensive though.

-Slim

[cstaylor]

Surveys often run into trouble as the personal goals of the surveyor often find their way into the results.

[Video-Link Japan]

When I first read this post last nite.. was shaking my head, sounds like it was written in the 1950's..!! To say that love is not very important in a Japanese marriage.. and then go on later about the 'kawaii factor'.. it's just weak from start to finish. I wonder what the % of modern marriages in Japan were 'arranged' over the last 10 years, or to what degree western marriages were based more on money than love..?!? As for sex after 1st child - or later in life 'elsewhere' - this is really not 'unique' to Japan. Regarding the comments about teenage prostitution.. talk about a crude racial profile. One thing that would seem pretty straight forward to me is that 'People Are People' no matter where you go, for better or worse, rich or poor. Give your head a shake Maciamo.. this kind of generalization is a waste of bytes.

[maraboutslim]

One thing that would seem pretty straight forward to me is that 'People Are People' no matter where you go, for better or worse, rich or poor.

Yes, the original post was a bit of a simplification, but let's not go too far in the criticism.

People are a product of their culture. There are HUGE differences in the way people from different countries see the world and behave in that world. If "people are people" is what you've learned from your time living in Japan, or other countries, then I think you need to get more deeply involved.


It is by no means crazy to say that fewer people marry for "love" in Japan than in, say, the USA. And as for "arranged" marriage, I wouldn't be surprised if over 25% of marriages are in some way "arranged" in Japan, even today. It's also not so wild to say that the Japanese have a vastly different methods of raising and educating children, and that Japanese fathers are less involved in their children's daily lives than American fathers. Sure, these things won't be true for every single individual/family but in general they hold up - at least that has been my experience and what I've learned from my friends who are married and raising Children in Japan and the US.

People aren't people. And that's the beauty of it all.

-Slim

[Crispy]

It's mainly just an issue of science and sociology and how it relates to normal people's lives. Generalizations about whole populations are useful for administration or just science for the sake of science, but have little bearing on how each individual lives their lives. For instance, with cancer (or any other deadly disease) research, does the fact that some specific person has a 20% chance of developing the desease really mean anything to that person? I mean, whether it is a 99.999999% chance or a 0.00001% chance, there are still only two things that will happen, they will get the disease or not. If they don't get it, great, no need to worry. If they get it, damn, a fat lot of good the statistics do them now.

Anyway, what was I talking about? Oh yeah. The value of statistics and generalizations shouldn't be overestimated.

[maraboutslim]

But Crispy, if one knows they have a higher risk of developing cancer, they will be more likely to get checkups, more likely to catch it early, and therefore more likely to live longer. The statistics were of great benefit to them.

Similarly, if one understands some general tendencies within a culture, she or he will be better prepared to deal with what comes up. Sure, not everyone will fit that mode, but many will and it will not be shocking.

I mean, I want to agree with Gomi Girl that we shouldn't try to label people, but on the other hand I do think it is somewhat valuable to understand cultural norms. No harm done as long as people realize that norms are just norms and don't apply to every last individual.

-Slim

[Video-Link Japan]

Yes, the original post was a bit of a simplification, but let's not go too far in the criticism. If "people are people" is what you've learned from your time living in Japan, or other countries, then I think you need to get more deeply involved.

Only `A Bit`..?!? I am pretty deeply involved and stand by what I said.. the original post reads like it was from the 1950`s..

It is by no means crazy to say that fewer people marry for "love" in Japan than in, say, the USA. And as for "arranged" marriage, I wouldn't be surprised if over 25% of marriages are in some way "arranged" in Japan, even today.

Again, I have to disagree.. Plenty of marriages in the U.S are based on other than love reasons too - as for arranged - in traditional sense that the head of each family decides and bride/groom have no choice.. I asked my wife about that]It's also not so wild to say that the Japanese have a vastly different methods of raising and educating children, and that Japanese fathers are less involved in their children's daily lives than American fathers. Sure, these things won't be true for every single individual/family but in general they hold up - at least that has been my experience and what I've learned from my friends who are married and raising Children in Japan and the US.[/quote]

I agree the parents role is more well defined.. but really it is case by case, and I know 4 family fathers here who are just as active in their childrens daily life as friends with demanding careers back in North America.. I really don`t see That Much of a difference..

People aren't people. And that's the beauty of it all.
-Slim

People aren`t people..?!? I`m gonna leave that little jewel alone, I will say that my original comment about about the post being a `waste of bytes` was too harsh.. it did generate some interesting discussion!!

[maraboutslim]

Only `A Bit`..?!? I am pretty deeply involved and stand by what I said.. the original post reads like it was from the 1950`s..

Japan is still in the 50s. Or haven't you noticed? ha!

as for arranged - in traditional sense that the head of each family decides and bride/groom have no choice..

I put "arranged" in quotations so that you would understand I did not mean the type you are talking about. But many, many marriages in Japan are arranged through professional services, family friends, business associates. Sure, the couple has a choice (at least until they get so old that the pressure to marry is enormous) but my point was that they didn't fall in love and then decide to get married: they decided to or needed to get married and then sought out a mate or had one suggested to them. Yes, this happens in America as well, but it is vastly more common in Japan.

People aren't people. And that's the beauty of it all.
-Slim

People aren`t people..?!? I`m gonna leave that little jewel alone,

You were trying to say that people are people and therefore the same around the world. I was trying to say that that is total BS. People from different cultures are vastly different. Even something like "love" is not a universal concept.

-Slim

[Video-Link Japan]

Slim.. It's like we're trying to decide if it's half full or half empty..!! Perhaps you've never been on the bullet train or walked through Akihabara or hung out over night in Shibuya..?!? Japan is not in the 50's (more than just technology wise) to me in many ways. As for the 'arranged' part.. dance party, singles clubs or introduced by a co-worker is common way for young people to meet anywhere.. London - New York - Tokyo.. but the term is mis-leading by definition. While culture is different and that is the beauty of it, common human threads exist in all countries; Grandparents or Strippers - School Children or Blind People.. thats why to me when you get right down to it people are people no matter where you go. Maybe it's because I try to see how we are the same and others try to pick out how we are different.. no disrespect indended. Yoroshiku Onagai Shimasu

[maraboutslim]

Slim.. It's like we're trying to decide if it's half full or half empty..!! Perhaps you've never been on the bullet train or walked through Akihabara or hung out over night in Shibuya..?!?

On the contrary, I lived in Japan for most of the 90s, was married there, had kids there, have many married friends and family members and feel I therefore have a pretty good view of the "real" Japan when it comes to family and marriage issues. Yes, you are right that Omiai marriages are certainly declining. The official percentages may even be as low as 10% these days. But it's still curious that the Japanese media in Japan views "renai kekkon" as a trendy thing to do. And I just have to tell you that I saw vast differences in the relationships between husband and wife and the methods of raising kids compared to typical practices in my native California.

threads exist in all countries]Yoroshiku Onagai Shimasu[/i]

Trying to see how people are the same is admirable. And sure, there are ways in which people are similar no matter where they lived or how they grew up. But I just wanted to make the point that one's culture and experience shapes them. It would be more appropriate to view people as different yet of equal worth.

Japanese culture is not western culture (whatever western means) and we shouldn't try to say that it is. General attitudes on education, work, dating, sex, love, wealth, children, elderly, women, minorities, etc. are vastly different in say Japan, Norway, Saudi Arabia, California, Virginia, and Utah. An individual Japanese person may indeed have the same views on these things as an individual from one of these other areas. But in general, the people will differ greatly. Understanding that the culture is actually different is very important and allows gaiijn to live more successfully in Japan because they won't be trying to make those around them conform to their own expectations of proper behavior.

-Slim

[GomiGirl]

I mean, I want to agree with Gomi Girl that we shouldn't try to label people, but on the other hand I do think it is somewhat valuable to understand cultural norms. No harm done as long as people realize that norms are just norms and don't apply to every last individual.

Yes but these cultural norms are from somebody else's point of view and by their very nature - subjective. We should not be using subjective information as the premise for making our own decisions. This is prejudging unfairly.

Yes give me a list of the differences in the legal aspects of marriage between countries but in terms of what happens in the realm of a relationship is very personal and also very different from person to person.

People should be able to experience things first hand and process any "differences" via their own filters and not because they are trying to relate it to what they have read or heard from somebody else. (but then I have never liked gossip.. unless it is really juicy)

[Naniwan Kid]

I thought this was an interesting essay. I am not sure what it's purpose is, and it is laden with overgeneralizations, but I am not sure why some of you are so offended. To give an essay like this won't put up walls, but gives up something to discuss. It seems like we may disagree with the % the generalizations imply, but I think we know that, in a VERY basic way, many of the things stated are true.

We can also debate the details.

At least in the U.S. day-care and nursery schools are very expensive, not FREE. A new mom I know is debating the value of spending nearly her entire paycheck on day-care. Same as the Japanese case mentioned.

I recently saw on the news that 25% of Japanese marriages are "sexless marriages" (sorry, I don't have a source). This would conflict with the above....

I also don't think Japanese wives are that universally forgiving to husbands who go to prostitutes. If they were to get caught, we could expect the $*!& to hit the fan....

[Maciamo]

Only `A Bit`..?!? I am pretty deeply involved and stand by what I said.. the original post reads like it was from the 1950`s..

Definitely the 1950's in a Western country, but that still holds true for Japan. How long have you been living in Japan ?


[quote]
Again, I have to disagree.. Plenty of marriages in the U.S are based on other than love reasons too - as for arranged - in traditional sense that the head of each family decides and bride/groom have no choice.. I asked my wife about that]

Problem of definition. Arranged marriages are not only those were the family decides for the future spouses. Nowadays in Japan (or Korea too) it's probably true than a significant part of the population get to know their partner by "miai", so via a matrimonial agency or because a family member or friend has arranged for them to meet, checking carefully all information about them. But in most cases the wife or husband to be have the right to decide. It's an "arranged marriage" because people meet through someone else for the special purpose of marriage and the 2 people actually get married quite quickly, normally without love and caring a lot about the financial situation a personal history of the other party. I know lots of young Japanese (around 30 years old now) who got married this way, though I don't know anyone in Europe (don't know so well about the States).

[Maciamo]

While I am not doubting that this is what you have found out from discussing with all sorts of people, I am curious to know why it is necessary for you to put everybody into groups.

Japanese people think X

Western people think Y

We should be opening up the lines of communication rather than putting up barriers of pre-judging a situation based on cultural or racial stereotypes.

Generalization are useful to give an idea of the average people, that is how 50% or more of the peope would think or act. It's obvious that not everybody fits in a category, but cultural differences exist and should not be forgotten. I am not trying to say that all Japanese are X or Y. I am giving my general impression based on my experience and observations. The constructive way to reply to this thread is to share your own knowledge of Japanese people and see if it generally fits with that of other people on the forum or not. The more examples (not only exceptions, please !), the easier it will be to distinguish what characteristic is rooted in the culture and what is just personality. From there, we could wonder how and why Japanese way of thinking (about marriage and relationships, here) is different of our. The other problem is that even between "gaijin", we come from different cultures and countries, so that what I find normal for me (European, partly French-speaker) might not be normal for you. My biggest culture shock ever was not when I came to Japan or travelled around India or SE Asia, but when I stayed in Australia (mostly because of the way of thinking and world vision, not about marriage). So I guess we could discuss these differences too.

[GomiGirl]

Of all the marriages I have witnessed first hand, none of them could be categorised as each one is different. That is why I am unable to generalise. If I tried to, I would be speculating about something and I don't think that is a very scientific way of handling data.

Also, it is my own pet peeve that generalisations lead to prejudice which leads to ugliness.

[Naniwan Kid]

Nowadays in Japan (or Korea too) it's probably true than a significant part of the population get to know their partner by "miai", so via a matrimonial agency or because a family member or friend has arranged for them to meet, checking carefully all information about them.

I have to be honest. I do not know a single person who has gotten married through an arranged marriage. Though I don't disagree (necessarily) with what an arranged marriage is trying to accomplish, I think it is the exception, and not the rule in Japan now. Maybe that is why the docorce rate is going up in Japan......

[Naniwan Kid]

I need to check spelling.....I meant DIVORCE rate.

[lightman]

I used to overlook generalizations such as in macimo's rapport,
thinking that kind of things would never happend to me, well I was wrong a lot of those have proven to be exact for me.

So when you read about those 'generalizations', don't forget there is no smoke without fire ...

[Maciamo]

Also, it is my own pet peeve that generalisations lead to prejudice which leads to ugliness.

Well that's only true of uneductaed or unintelligent or very religious people.

Why would you see a prejudice when there is absolutely nothing wrong in what I mentioned ?

I think that people who find prejudice of every generalisation must have a psychological problem at the basis. But of course, these are numerous too...

[Maciamo]

I have to be honest. I do not know a single person who has gotten married through an arranged marriage. Though I don't disagree (necessarily) with what an arranged marriage is trying to accomplish, I think it is the exception, and not the rule in Japan now.

How many married people do you know in Japan and how do you know how they got to know each others. Anyway, there is no shame is arranged marriages. I am not judging. It is said that they last longer and work better than love marriage, because love can turn to hate, or disappear and turn into divorce, or break hearts... They say that in love marriage, people start finding faults in their partners after staring to live together, while in arranged ones, they start discovering their qualities - and hopefully fall in love.

I don't have the stats (which probably don't exist anyway), but even if arranged marriage mke up 25% or 40% of all marriages nowadays (just "if", I've no idea), theystill would be the exception and not the rule (as it's less than 50%), which doesn't contradict what has been said.

Maybe that is why the docorce rate is going up in Japan......

Good one ! Never heard that word before We'll try to overlook that one.

PS : you can edit your messages, except if that was an intentional "mistake".

[Video-Link Japan]

They should not forget that on top of this it is normal in Japan for a father to have a bath with his children, even 20 year-old girls ! I guess that if the average Japanese man loses interest in his wife once she becomes a mother, there is no problem with children either.

Husband and wife relationships change after children are born in all cultures.. it's called human nature. Fathers bathing with their 20 year old daughters.. this is not 'normal'.. not in Japan or anywhere else. It reminds me of the way western media likes to find and report things like Japan's $300 watermelons without mentioning that they are specially grown square shaped and that if you want regular old watermelons from the grocery store.. the price is about the same. If a dysfunctional family somewhere in Hokkaido reported that the father bathed with 20year old daughter.. the next thing you know western people are told to 'consider that normal' behavior in Japan.

Finally, lots of Westerners think it might cause psychological problems to the children to sleep with their parents. But Japanese do it and seem to be alright with it. The only drawback I can think of is the independence factor. Japanese are very group-minded and usually have difficulty thinking by themselves. It may be related.

Yes.. very group-minded but 'usually have difficulty thinking by themselves'.. Bull-Shit.
It was these little statements that make your story so weak.. sounds like the people here are from Mars.. I think we both know better. It would be more accurate to say they prefer to reach a consensus based on the individual suggestions from the group..!! Thats actually a pretty smart way to approach things.. like two heads are better than one..?!?

Why do Japanese women stop working when they get married or pregnant ?
1) It's in the culture like that. They usually want to. Most Westerners think they are forced to quit, but they often resigned from their own will (or from what society has inculcated them). Japanese men also prefer that their wife stay at home once married. Women almost always want to spend as much time as they can with their babies (remember J-girls like what is "kawaii" ? The connection is evident).
2) Nursery schools are few and very expensive in Japan (I've heard about 200.000 yen/month). It make more sense for the mother to stay at home than work and pay almost all her salary for the nursery. In most Western countries, nurseries and kindergartens are free, which allows lots of mothers to work.

Western women also stop working when they start/raise a family, and their husbands want them to stay home as well.. at least until the kids start going to school. The cost of daycare is Not 'too expensive' in Japan or 'free' in the U.S. There are plenty of little 'princesses' over-seas that were raised on Barbie and all things kawaii.. is that "connection evident" to you at all..?!?

There is a kind a tacit understanding between spouse that after 10 years of marriage (loveless anyway) and a few children, the man is free to satisfy his libido somewhere else. That is why the sex industry is so prosperous in Japan.

Really.. the sex industry is properous in the U.S and Europe too..?!? I don't mean just Nevada and Holland either.. loveless/sexless marriages are not unique to Japan. Husbands (or wives) going outside the home for satisfaction.. it happens all over the world so whats your point?? Do you have access to credible study numbers to draw a factual comparison..?!? Otherwise your making this personal perception sound like gospel truth.

There is also the infamous "enjo kosai" or teenage prostitution. I'd like to say that for lots of Japanese (or East Asian) women, this isn't even considered as prostitution. Many find it normal to have sex with a man that pays them whatever they want. Remember that marriage is not much more than a man giving almosy all his salary to a woman to make children and take care of them. It suely sounds utterly shocking to lots of you, but after talking to (female) Japanese and other Asian friends I know quite well, they don't even see it as abnormal. It's in the mores, that's all. That doesn't mean Japanese women cheat more, but lots of them certainly consider money as more important than love or sex (which I find very saddening).

Teenagers sleeping with salarymen for money not considered prostitution.. hmmm, then why is it SO Against the Law..?!? You say "it's in the mores" (morales??) and "lots of them consider money as more important than love or sex" Have you Never heard of the term Gold-Digger..?!?! Also, your comments on Arranged Marriages.. family, friends or co-workers introducing singles to eachother happens world-wide and is not consider 'arranged'. These are the kind of statements from your original post that I took the most exception too.. they were made to sound like a Matter of Fact when in reality for the most part are either just not true, the exception to the rule or not really any different than segments of society over-seas.
The perpetual spreading of these 'myths' is what "I Find Very Saddening"..

[ramchop]

I am not judging.

I think that's the flaw in your essay. You're neither voicing your opinion nor presenting facts.

Others are asking, "where are the facts?". You seem to be afraid to be seen to be "judging".

Stick your bollocks on the chopping block and state your views. Which of your claimed systems do you think is best?

[Blah Pete]

In my last company there were three people who were married through Omiai.
One guy was a total loser. The half of the teeth left in his mouth were crooked.
The other guy just wanted someone who would take care of his mother who lived with him.
The 3rd guy had three kids from a past mattiage and needed someone to look after the kids because he was constantly on business trips.
From what I heard the 3rd guy snagged a decent wife, the other 2 got what they deserved.

Met another guy who went the Omiai route. He had few social skills (nampa, etc.) and I think was still a virgin when he got married at 32.

[Maciamo]

Video Link, all I can say is that you and me come from extremely different countries and cultures and that is where the misunderstanding lays. Maybe is it normal to have loveless marriage in the US, but in Europe people would usually divorce (or don't get married in the first place, even if they have children).

The sex industry is nowhere similar in Europe (even Netherlands) and Japan. I've never seen openly porn magazines (playboy is rather light...) and video outside specialised shops, while in Japan I only see that. Even my local video rental shops has porn videos next to the disaney. Soaplands, (sex) massage parlours, etc. don't exist in most European countries and there is not even a word in other languages for "enjo kosai" (never heard of it outside Asia, though it does exist in Korea, Thailand, etc).

About father having bath with their children. Where I come from, it's unacceptable already after about 5 years old. If you see Japanese drama, movies or even children anime (like Totoro), you'll see that lots of Japanese do have a bath with their children, at any age. Adults go to public bath, which is basically even worse, bathing nude with adult strangers. Public baths don't exist and would be unacceptable in most of Europe (except Austria, Finland...). Don't about the States, one more time. I wouldn't go to one in japan, even with family or friends, but I've heard lots of Americans actually enjoy it.

I guess almost everything you criticise about my comparisons "East - West" is because I mistankenly assumed that Americans would not be that far from European in mentality. It seems I was wrong.

[Maciamo]

I am not judging.

I think that's the flaw in your essay. You're neither voicing your opinion nor presenting facts.

Others are asking, "where are the facts?". You seem to be afraid to be seen to be "judging".

Stick your bollocks on the chopping block and state your views. Which of your claimed systems do you think is best?

Why do you need an opinion ? I haven't made up my mind yet. I should try both types of marriage and I'll let you know after.

What do YOU think is best ?

[GomiGirl]

I think my biggest problem is that there are no hard facts or stats - just hearsay and subjective opinions. It is like the media only reporting the kooky and freaky parts of the things around town and leaving out the boring facts. (eg the watermelon for $300 vs the supermarket watermelon)

In an onsen everybody bathes together, but it is not common place at home for a father to bathe with their 20year old daughters. This is just taking the sensational and making it seem the "norm".

[Alcazar]

Maciamo thank you for your essay comparing Japanese and Western marriages. I found it useful because I did not know very much about Japanese marriages before hand, extraordinary stuff. It seems very mechanical, just an extension of the Japanese devotion to carrying out their 'duty'. Maybe if it is changing like others suggest, it would be a good thing for Japanese people's happiness.

My biggest culture shock ever was not when I came to Japan or travelled around India or SE Asia, but when I stayed in Australia (mostly because of the way of thinking and world vision, not about marriage). So I guess we could discuss these differences too.

I have been to France (all over), so what was it that you found so different about Australia? I really liked France, but I did not like Paris as much as I liked rural France.

Alcazar