Katakata Japanese in a non-Romaji world

[matsuki]

Why not write it "fah" on menus in English? Vietnamese is a different language so there's no need to preserve the spelling just because they use the same alphabet.

While that might help, my issue is when it's being written phonetically incorrect and designated a "foreign word." I guess this is where the bridge to wasei eigo begins...designating fucked/misunderstood/made up words as official, adopted, "foreign words" into Japanese. If they were writing it in hiragana, their whole "it's a human right to create new words!" argument might hold some water..

Luckily for Choko's sanity, someone had their thinking cap on for Bangkok's new-ish airport, meaning you will fly into スワンナプーム rather than say スヴァーナブミ.

Bangkok? If you're going to say it say it right. Everyone knows it's really called Krungthepmahanakhon Amonrattanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilokphop Noppharatratchathaniburirom Udomratchaniwetmahasathan Amonphimanawatansathit Sakkathattiyawitsanukamprasit.

Shoot. Faulty memory. It weren't no pho...

http://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9 ... 1%E3%83%B3

That ain't no "Vietnam Ramen". That's Viet Cong Ramen! (ベトコンラーメン). What a name! Where I come from, I'm not sure a restaurant with that name would last long, though...

The one true ramen of the people! (Why isn't the broth pink?)

[yanpa]

Speaking of which, Thai is a tonal language but your Latin alphabet there does not include tonal markings. Naturally, the only true solution is to render it กรุงเทพมหานคร อมรรัตนโกสินทร์ มหินทรายุธยา มหาดิลกภพ นพรัตนราชธานีบูรีรมย์ อุดมราชนิเวศน์มหาสถาน อมรพิมานอวตารสถิต สักกะทัตติยวิษณุกรรมประสิทธิ์ and hope that the local education system everywhere gets everyone up to speed.

BTW if anyone is wondering if those curly bits above/below the line are tonal markers, they're not. They're vowels. Except this one: ร์ which means "do not pronounce this letter, which is there for historical reasons and/or it's a foreign word which includes the equivalent of that letter in the foreign language's script, but which is unpronounceable for Thais in that particular position [*], so do not pronounce it". Oh yes, and while we're at it, "ร" without the squiggly bit floating above is "r", except when it's at the end of a word, when it's "n". And there are four different ways of writing "d",or is it "t". And half the vowels are implied anyway. And some of the letters, such as vowels forming dipthongs, are written in a different sequence to the way they're pronounced. Oh, and "รร" after a consonant is actually "aa". And spaces between words are at a premium.

[*] For hours of fun and amusement, try getting a Thai speaker to pronounce a word ending in "s".

[Coligny]

That would explain why most job opportunities there start with a sex change...

[matsuki]

That would explain why most job opportunities there start with a sex change...

Or hint at the best blowjobs ever...with tongues like that

[kurogane]

I find that katakana words are often the most difficult to pronounce. I still can't roll ポルトガル smoothly off my tongue.

Yes to this, and that's one of the easy ones. I have been avoiding all Gairaigo this week to avoid confusion, which only leads to more confusion. It has always been my weakest point with Japanese, which only leads to more confusion.
Anyways, while Wagyl has a nice point right at the top about their etymological fidelity, Choko's point is well taken. They actually do read foreign languages as though they were written in Japanese romaji, to great consternation and confusion. My personal pet peeve is the previously non-existent glottal stop. Watching the world cup at a bar was a hilarious Lost In Translation exercise when trying to name players that enjoy a double consonant sound in Japan that does not exist when said in English. As an example, one of the most sublimely athletic Mexican Drama Queens in the history of Organised Sport: I had no idea who they were talking about when they mentioned how fast Roppin is. It makes Robben sound like an anime character.

As a POI, how would a Dutcher say Robben? Is it a double B, or is it closer to the English version: Robin?????

PS it never occurred to me that Pho isn't pronounced Pho or Po, and I'm from Vancouver. I just order by number anyways.

[matsuki]

For a few months last year, I had no idea who the fuck they were confusing me with..."Meshy Meshy!!" I would have answered "Who the fuck you calling messy you inbred snaggletooth?!" but it's hard to be mad when they want to take a picture with you. (Messhikimochiiiiiii really confused me)

[Russell]

I find that katakana words are often the most difficult to pronounce. I still can't roll ポルトガル smoothly off my tongue.

Yes to this, and that's one of the easy ones. I have been avoiding all Gairaigo this week to avoid confusion, which only leads to more confusion. It has always been my weakest point with Japanese, which only leads to more confusion.
Anyways, while Wagyl has a nice point right at the top about their etymological fidelity, Choko's point is well taken. They actually do read foreign languages as though they were written in Japanese romaji, to great consternation and confusion. My personal pet peeve is the previously non-existent glottal stop. Watching the world cup at a bar was a hilarious Lost In Translation exercise when trying to name players that enjoy a double consonant sound in Japan that does not exist when said in English. As an example, one of the most sublimely athletic Mexican Drama Queens in the history of Organised Sport: I had no idea who they were talking about when they mentioned how fast Roppin is. It makes Robben sound like an anime character.

As a POI, how would a Dutcher say Robben? Is it a double B, or is it closer to the English version: Robin?????

Robben is pronounced in Dutch as "robber" with the last "r" replaced by an "n" and the first "R" pronounced in the way I imagine the Scottish do, but a little less like a rolling R. Actually the pronunciation of the first "R" depends on the area/city in Holland, but no native Dutch speaker will pronounce it in the way an Anglo-saxon would.

So, to answer your question about the pronunciation of the "e", in Dutch it sounds like "uh".

[matsuki]

Next in line for the fucked katakata'd kaigai words...

This...

paella1[1].jpeg

Somehow becomes this...

i-JFf5hvn-L[1].jpg

The only way I can fathom Paella (pronounced パエヤ) becoming パエリア (sounds like Pie Area) is some doofus who couldn't 聞き取り thinking it was PAELIA (cause that second "l" is obviously an "i"...I mean, how the fuck would you pronounce a double L? )

They couldn't just call it バレンシアちゃーはんor something like that?

[Yokohammer]

Next in line for the fucked katakata'd kaigai words...

This...

paella1[1].jpeg

Somehow becomes this...

i-JFf5hvn-L[1].jpg

The only way I can fathom Paella (pronounced パエヤ) becoming パエリア (sounds like Pie Area) is some doofus who couldn't 聞き取り thinking it was PAELIA (cause that second "l" is obviously an "i"...I mean, how the fuck would you pronounce a double L? )

They couldn't just call it バレンシアちゃーはんor something like that?

They say it like "pyorrhea," which is periodontal disease.

Yummy.

[matsuki]

Undercook it and it might give you Piarrhea

[wagyl]

I'm guessing that you've never heard how it is said in English speaking places without a long border with Mexico.

Since Japanese are more familiar than most with gemination (doubling of consonants) I dispute your "two L's must be an LI theory, and counter with a theory that it was an incomplete correction. There is no native gemination of ら行 so expecting ッラ would have been ambitious, so the パエラ, when corrected with a "No, it is a ヤ," became パエリヤ.

[matsuki]

I'm guessing that you've never heard how it is said in English speaking places without a long border with Mexico.

Sounds like パエラ？Do they pronounce tortilla　トルティラ?

[Samurai_Jerk]

I've seen some places in Japan write it パエージャ which is closer to how they say in Valencia than パエヤ.

[wagyl]

Sounds like パエラ？Do they pronounce tortilla　トルティラ?

Are you expecting consistency or something??? Tortilla is less mangled than most.

Please, please don't ask about fajita.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Looks like there is a bit of an "L" sound if the "LL" occurs in the middle of a word.

Listen & Repeat

[wagyl]

After careful thought I would say, in realtion to one nonUS English at least, that the tortilla example is "just regard those ll's as silent." There is a native tendency to run vowels together anyway so it may not be easily distinguished to someone with another dialect, but I would go as far as to say it is more a トルティア than a トルティーヤ.

And as a point of reference, my IME just offered トルティージャ as another alternative.

[matsuki]

After careful thought I would say, in realtion to one nonUS English at least, that the tortilla example is "just regard those ll's as silent." There is a native tendency to run vowels together anyway so it may not be easily distinguished to someone with another dialect, but I would go as far as to say it is more a トルティア than a トルティーヤ.

And as a point of reference, my IME just offered トルティージャ as another alternative.

Yeah, I saw a bunch of パエリージャand such though I have no idea what accent gives you a "ja" and the end of either word. My main point is the katakana パエリアseems like it was a fucked romaji reading of PAELLA as PAELIA (BTW: Paelia is the name the city hall of Lleida, Catalonia, Spain) and not a take on any dialect pronunciation of paella.

[wagyl]

I have no idea what accent gives you a "ja" and the end of either word.

It seems to be mostly Rioplatense Spanish: Argentina and Uruguay.

My main point is the katakana パエリアseems like it was a fucked romaji reading of PAELLA as PAELIA

I repeat the theory I stated above, but edited in after you had probably seen it.

Since Japanese are more familiar than most with gemination (doubling of consonants) I dispute your "two L's must be an LI theory, and counter with a theory that it was an incomplete correction. There is no native gemination of ら行 so expecting ッラ would have been ambitious, so the パエラ, when corrected with a "No, it is a ヤ," became パエリヤ.

That said, I've seen Iida rendered as Lida plenty of times by Anglophones who can't believe that an I can be next to another I.

[matsuki]

I repeat the theory I stated above, but edited in after you had probably seen it.

Since Japanese are more familiar than most with gemination (doubling of consonants) I dispute your "two L's must be an LI theory, and counter with a theory that it was an incomplete correction. There is no native gemination of ら行 so expecting ッラ would have been ambitious, so the パエラ, when corrected with a "No, it is a ヤ," became パエリヤ.

So they fucked it up as パエラ and someone tried to correct them and they fucked it up worse as パエリヤ？That's even crazier but not beyond reason.

That said, I've seen Iida rendered as Lida plenty of times by Anglophones who can't believe that an I can be next to another I.

That's a slightly different issue though, especially if you know it's a name. Just like "Aaron" you could understand that while it's unusual, the first letter would be capitalized. It wouldn't make as much sense to have a "capital "i" in the middle of a word.

[wagyl]

MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE PUT IT IN ALL CAPS TO MAKE IT CLEAR (but that is a pretty damn huge "???") AND SAVE YOU SOME CONFUSION. I WORKED WITH MR IIDA. IN THE US, FULLY 90% OF THE TIME HE WAS RECORDED AS AND REFERRED TO AS MR LIDA.

[matsuki]

I get your point, just saying that's a different level of stupidity if they know it's a name they're reading. Though, if it was that bad, why not write it as Eeda or something that clicks with people? Like the title says, it's a non-Romaji world? I mean, we don't katakasize our names based on the romaji reading? (or write them in romaji for that matter)

Another example of the "ii" phenomenon is my ex that used to get upset when people pronounced her last name (石井) as "e-she" instead of "e-shee." Her, and other Japanese, trying to explain the difference was hilarious...always try to sound it out for them いっしっい！which got repeated back as いっしっい to their dismay. NO! いしい！ which elicited いし！in return, and then the いっしっい repeated.

[yanpa]

A co-worker at a former company was frequently addressed both verbally and in writing as Japan's highest mountain...

[wagyl]

Tanigawa-dake?

[wagyl]

why not write it as Eeda or something that clicks with people?

I'm not sure if you were getting the point: it was that the similarities between lower case L and upper case I and sloppy handwriting habits in the native English speaking population together with an inability to handle the concept of two I's snuggling up together brought this problem about. I also add that he consistently wrote his capital I with serifs in an attempt to avoid this issue.

As to adapting his name, please be aware that "ee" as an イー sound is a historical quirk of English, and limited to English-based orthographies, and is not to be encouraged. It makes Baby Jesus and Coligny cry. The spelling of English partially solidified before a massive shift in accents changing what used to be エー to イー. They know this by examining rhyming poetry through the ages.

And if he is adapting his name, why not go the whole hog and call himself McCoy?

[matsuki]

As to adapting his name, please be aware that "ee" as an イー sound is a historical quirk of English, and limited to English-based orthographies, and is not to be encouraged. It makes Baby Jesus and Coligny cry. The spelling of English partially solidified before a massive shift in accents changing what used to be エー to イー. They know this by examining rhyming poetry through the ages.

Fair enough...Hawaii comes to mind when I think about that going the other way. Most Americans pronounce it ハワイイ or ハヴァッイ, yet it somehow became ハワイ in Japan? I guess I have too much of an expectation for consistency?

And if he is adapting his name, why not go the whole hog and call himself McCoy?

If that's his wife's last name, it might make things easier on him?

[kurogane]

Since Japanese are more familiar than most with gemination (doubling of consonants) .

That was downright agglutinating..................I have been searching for that term for about 26 1/2 years now. I heard or read it once, and no Japanese since has been able to answer the question, rather cunning linguists included.

So put a beer on my account

Any idea what they call the bit where they add an extra 'u' behind an O sound? (kou vs. ko, IOW)

Other than that, I have NFI what youze twoze is on about, but the tendency to geminate uneccesarily is fantastically aggravating. To wit, the lighting fast Dutch winger is not Roppin. He's Robin.

I like what Waggy says, but my guts is with Choko. If you want to import a word, feckin' ask somebody how to say it, or you end up with Hotchkiss.

[matsuki]

I like what Waggy says, but my guts is with Choko. If you want to import a word, feckin' ask somebody how to say it, or you end up with Hotchkiss.

Wagyl isn't really disagreeing with me, he's just super sharp and pointing out that similar fuck ups happen in the eigosphere too. He's also hinted at, and very correctly deduced, that the "melting pot" of LA where I'm from, I had people from all over the world to get on my ass if I mispronounced something.

[wagyl]

Since Japanese are more familiar than most with gemination (doubling of consonants) .

That was downright agglutinating..................I have been searching for that term for about 26 1/2 years now. I heard or read it once, and no Japanese since has been able to answer the question, rather cunning linguists included.

So put a beer on my account

Any idea what they call the bit where they add an extra 'u' behind an O sound? (kou vs. ko, IOW)

There is really not a lot of point in knowing terms like gemination because every time you use it you have to explain it with "doubling of consonants." It really is no more than gemini → twinned letters.

The technical term for differing vowel lengths, is ... vowel length.


And Choko, there are a lot of ファジータ=fattened arses to get on, that I can point you towards.

[matsuki]

The technical term for differing vowel lengths, is ... vowel length.

Sooooo, you're saying they're trying to make up for length somewhere else?

And Choko, there are a lot of ファジータ=fattened arses to get on, that I can point you towards.

Google yields some ファジータス results but in general, I actually see that as ファヒータス so score one for the Nissan exec's lap dance Spanish lessons.

She earned the car being named after her...

7130710779_18b73e6c92_z[1].jpg

[kurogane]

There is really not a lot of point in knowing terms like gemination because every time you use it you have to explain it with "doubling of consonants." It really is no more than gemini → twinned letters.

The technical term for differing vowel lengths, is ... vowel length..

Erp. Fair enough. As for gemination, I find it germinative.

FTR, I admire the way Jpn do attempt an imitation of the native word without filtering it through our own often stilted takes. Except for the Japanification of the geminative elements therewithin and heretofore.