FG's, you've wasted your life in Japan

[havill]

david aldwinckle forgot the #1 rule: No matter how hard you try, ... you can't ever become Japanese.

If you say so.

(This is too complicated a post for a FG comment [Coligny probably prefers I just slum it and post jpgs of JP tail on FG], so I'll just post this video that sums up one aspect, but not all aspects, of "being Japanese": the identity aspect)

The 15 second sound bite: If it is true that Debito felt he was never accepted as "a Japanese" (outside of a legal sense), it is because, deep down, he never accepted himself as "a Japanese".

The 15 second sound bite made cooler with Yoda:

[havill]

On another note, I've sent a IMO awesome 300 word (the max) response to JT Reader Mail. Given how the heavy censored that article's comments were (not just mine my own witty but poignant comment, but others as well) let's see if they publish it. They have in the past — that's because Community Editor Ben Stubbings is not in charge of that section.

[havill]

OT: here's how you microagress a naturalized person: ask them if they know Debito.

That is literally my only regret about naturalizing: the Debito questions you get from foreigners.

I'd rather be asked if I can use chopsticks.

[kurogane]

david aldwinckle forgot the #1 rule: No matter how hard you try, ... you can't ever become Japanese.

If you say so.

At a mundane level that assertion is truer than not in most senses. I like your take and your attitude much more than The Great Douche's but insisting that a non-Japanese looking Japanese enjoys prima facie acceptance seems at best naive. I find your take too ego-centred (in the analytic sense) and a touch too American/Oprahtastic, though dragging Yoda into it makes things much, much cooler. But that is a technical sociological objection and I mean that all as an admirer and a friend (I hope), btw.　Again, integration and acceptance but not much assimilation (allowing for the debate over what assimilation entails). I'll take a look at the JT comments, though. They bounced my snarky comment the other day, the touchy little cunts. It was alliteratively lyrical

BTW, what exactly is The Debito Question other naturalisers get?

[wagyl]

OT: here's how you microagress a naturalized person: ask them if they know Debito.

That is literally my only regret about naturalizing: the Debito questions you get from foreigners.

I'd rather be asked if I can use chopsticks.

That little bit of information goes in the same drawer as the bit about Russell and the Minica.

[matsuki]

The 15 second sound bite: If it is true that Debito felt he was never accepted as "a Japanese" (outside of a legal sense), it is because, deep down, he never accepted himself as "a Japanese".

Ehhh, even if he did, all it takes is someone calling him "gaijin-san" and he'd be back to going angry westerner on them. Changing the image of what "Japanese" looks like isn't an overnight solution....hell, many Japanese still think "Americans" are supposed to be white.

Anyhow, Japan is probably one of the best case studies for bandwagon that ever existed...if I were on the crusade he's on, I'd skip the legal route and minutia battles with individuals, that type of assery takes generations to weed out.....try to get the pop media on board and suddenly we'll all be complaining about the "gaikokujinhayari." Where is GJN48? Don't get me started on kinpatsu anything

[wagyl]

Where is GJN48?

You rang?


But to get back on topic, Debito's acceptance of identity as a Japanese requires that acceptance both from him and the surrounding environment. It sounds like he has given up on thinking that acceptance will ever come from his environment, but if he gives up, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[legion]

The 15 second sound bite: If it is true that Debito felt he was never accepted as "a Japanese" (outside of a legal sense), it is because, deep down, he never accepted himself as "a Japanese".

fer fucks sake

do you really define yourself by nationality?

Japanese people aren't Japanese, they were just born here.

[wangta]

Where is GJN48?

You rang?
But to get back on topic, Debito's acceptance of identity as a Japanese requires that acceptance both from him and the surrounding environment. It sounds like he has given up on thinking that acceptance will ever come from his environment, but if he gives up, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I'd say that 'self-fulfilling prophecy' is a moot point and I don't intend any disrespect to you by that. I also mean no disrespect to Havill who is a naturalised Japanese but along with Debito cannot really be Japanese according to the vast majority of Japanese people in the society and also according to the cultural norms both of Japanese daily life and centuries of tradition.

Japanese (and Chinese/Korean/most Asian societies/other non Asian societies) draw very clear boundaries between the natives as in people who are the predominant culture along with homogeneity of appearance, and outsiders. For example, China with its significant minorities and long history of inter-ethnic mixing and rulers from minority ethnic groups still defines itself by the Han Chinese tradition and concept.

And the outsiders in Japan in 2014 are still people who don't look like what most people in Japan look like down to the almond/less rounded eyes, black to very dark brown hair naturally, straight hair. Other Asians 'pass' but when their ethnicity is known then they are not considered Japanese in the real sense.

This will not change as long as Japanese people want to preserve their traditions of a closed society based on 'blood ties' and the broad kinship they feel as Japanese. Their very existence is so bound up with this identity and they are also very nationalistic in the sense of preserving homogeneity.

This will not change in the foreseeable future as the Japanese do not want mass immigration. They like things as they are, no matter that they have social problems etc, these are mitigated by the ease of living in a society where nearly everyone else speaks the same native language and they deal with socio-politico-cultural challenges in the way they prefer.

I can understand that as it would cause a huge amount of disruption to the reference points and securities they have as an homogenous society. The Japanese are poorly equipped to deal with the real globalisation that immigrant societies have had for some time.

Nearly every western country that has seen its population diversifying rapidly is having some problems accepting this as unemployment bites, cities are overcrowding, resources are getting scarcer, taxes will have to go up to accommodate some of the newcomers who don't contribute much or anything financially, etc.

The Japanese shun mass immigration and will keep doing so. And it's not like western countries are models of harmonious co-existence with respect for multiculturalism and diversity (and indeed at times the diversity should be unacceptable when it involves such nasties as child marriages, female mutilation etc etc). The white face is still seen as the European, American, English, NZ, Canadian norm despite the reality of 3rd generation natives who are Black, Asian, Middle Eastern etc.

Debito could convince himself til the cows come home that he is Japanese because he naturalised but it does not make him and most likely never will in his and our lifetimes a Japanese person according to Japanese society and Japanese people. His believing it makes no difference.

The overwhelming majority of Japanese people will accept that a non Japanese legitimately holds a J passport because they naturalised but they won't follow this to the conclusions that non Japanese especially white westerners want them to. The only likely scenario for change is if 'hafus' who have some identifying physicallyJapanese features along with their non Japanese features become a sizeable proportion of the population.

[matsuki]

Where is GJN48?

You rang?

baby steps baby steps

[wangta]

The 15 second sound bite: If it is true that Debito felt he was never accepted as "a Japanese" (outside of a legal sense), it is because, deep down, he never accepted himself as "a Japanese".

fer fucks sake

do you really define yourself by nationality?

Japanese people aren't Japanese, they were just born here.

I think the point of all this is what the Japanese define themselves as. It is irrelevant to the vast majority of them what the small minority of naturalised Japanese especially the white feel about definitions to do with race, ethnicity, nationhood etc.

[Mike Oxlong]

Japanese (and Chinese/Korean/most Asian societies/other non Asian societies) draw very clear boundaries between the natives as in people who are the predominant culture along with homogeneity of appearance, and outsiders. For example, China with its significant minorities and long history of inter-ethnic mixing and rulers from minority ethnic groups still defines itself by the Han Chinese tradition and concept.

Pick your exception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashan

[kurogane]

But to get back on topic, Debito's acceptance of identity as a Japanese requires that acceptance both from him and the surrounding environment. .

The latter requirement is the crux of my objection to Havill's ideas as stated above, and yes I know he's being smug and goofing around. Still, Just Believing is a little froofy and fraught with peril for those of a lesser constitution. But again, meaningful and fulfilling integration is eminently possible. It does help if you actually like them as people, which I don't think Dr. Fatty Aldwinkle ever did. I find it helps to maintain an air of benign presumption that mirrors their broader cultural delusions of superiority; it infuriates the ones it's intended to and the ones it doesn't get a kick out of it. YMMV, of course, and dismissive sarcasm definitely doesn't travel well outside the Kyoto bubble as I am currently finding daily.

[Salty]

Just saw a news report on a HipHop contest. I`m guessing that Mr. Microagression would feel more Japanese if he could just master a few of those twists, turns, and jumps.

Whether a naturalized National ever is accepted as truly Japanese by those who are, seems to me to be a rather silly goal – since they obviously aren`t. Same for game players who want, deep down, to be accepted as pilots, astronauts, players, or any other fantasy being which they in real life are not. For his sake, I do hope that he only continues to write such tripe because it pays, and not because he is still grinding his rather dull and antiquated axe.

[Coligny]

david aldwinckle forgot the #1 rule: No matter how hard you try, ... you can't ever become Japanese.

If you say so.

(This is too complicated a post for a FG comment [Coligny probably prefers I just slum it and post jpgs of JP tail on FG], so I'll just post this video that sums up one aspect, but not all aspects, of "being Japanese": the identity aspect)

The 15 second sound bite: If it is true that Debito felt he was never accepted as "a Japanese" (outside of a legal sense), it is because, deep down, he never accepted himself as "a Japanese".

The 15 second sound bite made cooler with Yoda:

no, i'm the cat guy. its Take for the tail pics...

[Yokohammer]

david aldwinckle forgot the #1 rule: No matter how hard you try, ... you can't ever become Japanese.

If you say so.

I seriously hope you're not saying that the instant you naturalise and truly believe yourself to be Japanese, Japanese children magically stop pointing at you and saying "あっ、アメリカ人だ！" because they somehow sense that The Force is now with you. I'm actually kind of surprised that Mr. Aldwinckle hasn't tried suing their parents yet.

Anyway, the gist is that from the ethnic Japanese point of view you're not Japanese, just some quirky foreigner who has taken on Japanese citizenship. If a difference of opinion arises a common response will still be that you don't understand because you're not a "true" Japanese. And you still get complimented on your skill with chopsticks, don't you. That's the reality that Wuchan (and myself) is talking about. What I was saying is that you just need to expect it and deal with it. Deal with the fact that you'll still have to explain and possibly even prove the fact that you are a Japanese citizen in a multitude of situations where an ethnic Japanese wouldn't have to. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. If you can deal with it it's water off a duck's back, if a tad inconvenient.

The other side of the coin: I'm an Australian who speaks English with an American accent because most of my early schooling was in American/Canadian schools. When I'm back home in my own country I sometimes get asked "so how long have you been in Australia?" or where I'm from. It doesn't bother me. I simply explain, if an explanation is in order, and move on. There's no getting away from it.

And then there are the cases of real discrimination and exclusivism that people everywhere have to deal with too. A little more vexing than the above, and sometimes a confrontation is necessary, but mostly it's just a matter of dealing with it, innit.

[havill]

The 15 second sound bite: If it is true that Debito felt he was never accepted as "a Japanese" (outside of a legal sense), it is because, deep down, he never accepted himself as "a Japanese".

fer fucks sake

do you really define yourself by nationality?

No I don't. As I explained above, this is too complicated a topic to do in a BBforum comment, but that that merely a 15 second snarky response.

[havill]

point and I don't intend any disrespect to you by that. I also mean no disrespect to Havill who is a naturalised Japanese but along with Debito cannot really be Japanese according to the vast majority of Japanese people in the society and also according to the cultural norms both of Japanese daily life and centuries of tradition.

Japanese (and Chinese/Korean/most Asian societies/other non Asian societies) draw very clear boundaries between the natives as in people who are the predominant culture along with homogeneity of appearance, and outsiders. For example, China with its significant minorities and long history of inter-ethnic mixing and rulers from minority ethnic groups still defines itself by the Han Chinese tradition and concept.

And the outsiders in Japan in 2014 are still people who don't look like what most people in Japan look like down to the almond/less rounded eyes, black to very dark brown hair naturally, straight hair. Other Asians 'pass' but when their ethnicity is known then they are not considered Japanese in the real sense.

This will not change as long as Japanese people want to preserve their traditions of a closed society based on 'blood ties' and the broad kinship they feel as Japanese. Their very existence is so bound up with this identity and they are also very nationalistic in the sense of preserving homogeneity.

This will not change in the foreseeable future as the Japanese do not want mass immigration. They like things as they are, no matter that they have social problems etc, these are mitigated by the ease of living in a society where nearly everyone else speaks the same native language and they deal with socio-politico-cultural challenges in the way they prefer.

I can understand that as it would cause a huge amount of disruption to the reference points and securities they have as an homogenous society. The Japanese are poorly equipped to deal with the real globalisation that immigrant societies have had for some time.

Nearly every western country that has seen its population diversifying rapidly is having some problems accepting this as unemployment bites, cities are overcrowding, resources are getting scarcer, taxes will have to go up to accommodate some of the newcomers who don't contribute much or anything financially, etc.

The Japanese shun mass immigration and will keep doing so. And it's not like western countries are models of harmonious co-existence with respect for multiculturalism and diversity (and indeed at times the diversity should be unacceptable when it involves such nasties as child marriages, female mutilation etc etc). The white face is still seen as the European, American, English, NZ, Canadian norm despite the reality of 3rd generation natives who are Black, Asian, Middle Eastern etc.

Debito could convince himself til the cows come home that he is Japanese because he naturalised but it does not make him and most likely never will in his and our lifetimes

Thanks for that. Obviously, you're not the first English nym to post an invented in the 20th century Nihonjinron* in response to a comment or question about acceptance into Japan, and you won't be the last, so I've heard it before.

The essays are useful in one respect: they tell me a lot about how YOU think — not so much about how the Collective thinks.

* i realize there was a little more to your reply than just nihonjinron, so I apologize in advance for cherry picking.

[havill]

david aldwinckle forgot the #1 rule: No matter how hard you try, ... you can't ever become Japanese.

If you say so.

I seriously hope you're not saying that the instant you naturalise and truly believe yourself to be Japanese, Japanese children magically stop pointing at you and saying "あっ、アメリカ人だ！" because they somehow sense that The Force is now with you. I'm actually kind of surprised that Mr. Aldwinckle hasn't tried suing their parents yet.

Anyway, the gist is that from the ethnic Japanese point of view you're not Japanese, just some quirky foreigner who has taken on Japanese citizenship.

Obviously I'm not saying that. Tropic Thunder jokes and Turning Tests aside, it's much more complicated than that.

[Yokohammer]

Obviously I'm not saying that. Tropic Thunder jokes and Turning Tests aside, it's much more complicated than that.

Got it. It was a tongue-in-cheek response to your tongue-in-cheek response, employed primarily for the purpose of pointing out how stupid it would be to get angry at children saying "アメリカ人だ！” (although a certain naturalised David comes awfully close to doing just that at times), and that there will always be stuff to deal with, no matter who or where you are.

[havill]

Got it. It was a tongue-in-cheek response to your tongue-in-cheek response, employed primarily for the purpose of pointing out how stupid it would be to get angry at children saying "アメリカ人だ！” (although a certain naturalised David comes awfully close to doing just that at times), and that there will always be stuff to deal with, no matter who or where you are.

That being said, I've had a lot of people who naturalized that often send me a private email asking to meet for coffee etc to ask about things related to naturalization they're too uncomfortable asking in the comments or via email.

When they ask me about psychological challenges... the first thing I tell them is they need to be prepared for... wait for it...

>> not Japanese telling them they're not really and never will be Japanese...
but rather
>> non-Japanese telling you that you are not really and never will be Japanese, no matter what your nationality says and no matter how Japanese treat you and your relationship with Japan.

I've literally had not a SINGLE Japanese soul ever tell me that, yet I've heard the "you'll never be Japanese line" countless times from foreigners-- sometimes directly to my face. Although, I kind of invite that sort of comment as I run a site called "turning-japanese".

Through conversations with other naturalized Japanese *, they all unanimously can all confirm the same thing re experiences with non-Japanese and Japanese post-naturalization.

So, I tell them, if you're not mentally prepared to deal with that sort of "microaggression**" from non-Japanese, then you should probably think long and hard about whether you're mentally prepared. Of course, there's much more to being "ready" to change your nationality that, but that is a significant mentally exhausting factor that people overlook.

The other microaggression, though much more minor... is that if you tell an English speaking non-Japanese who is over the age of 38 who has spent more than a year in Japan that you are naturalized, they will invariably ask, "oh hey, do you know Debito Arudou?"

Like finding out somebody is Australian and asking if they know "Bruce".

Getting back to the OP topic, I suspect that a lot of Debito's mentally jumping-the-shark was not just due to the failure of his relationship with the Japanese***, but also his antagonistic relationship with non-Japanese who never accepted him was a big part of that too.

Gawddammit now I'm going to have to write a post about this... because it's getting too long for comments.

* Unless they're Asian ... especially Chinese/Korean origin, and then English nyms shut their mouths, either because they're racist or they fear being accused of it. In the world of PC Politics, White men, of course, are fair game when it comes to questioning the legitimacy of their identity.
** OMG WTF is wrong with me? I used that word in a non-ironic fashion. Look what you've done to me!
*** I'd guesstimate that 85% of his Issues come from his very personal relationship fails with Japanese and his family, 15% of his Issues come from his failing relationships with non-Japanese in Japan.

[wagyl]

What amazes me most about all of this is that a person's nationality really only affects the relationship you have with the nation state, not with other people. I don't look for the flag tattooed on everyone's forehead as I walk down the street. Of course, that comment is inviting argument from the very people who like to agitate about "Japanese Only" signs on establishments, but do those agitators really think that that issue will disappear if they change their nationality? That that is in any way working towards a solution? If a significant factor in your decision to make the effort to change nationality is so that you can say "Ah! Gotcha!" to the baito on the front desk at an onsen, then nothing will satisfy you.

[havill]

If a significant factor in your decision to make the effort to change nationality is so that you can say "Ah! Gotcha!" to the baito on the front desk at an onsen, then nothing will satisfy you.

Exactly. And if you do enough Googling and use of Web Archive, you will find that his official reason for naturalizing has changed over time... to fit and address what his non-Japanese critics doubted him on.

The best way to find out (not foolproof; I know some that don't take it seriously and/or use a template) is to ask to see/read a copy of their 動機書 (motivation essay), which is part of the application process.

And hell no I'm not showing you mine.

[Yokohammer]

When they ask me about psychological challenges... the first thing I tell them is they need to be prepared for... wait for it...

>> not Japanese telling them they're not really and never will be Japanese...
but rather
>> non-Japanese telling you that you are not really and never will be Japanese, no matter what your nationality says and no matter how Japanese treat you and your relationship with Japan.

I've literally had not a SINGLE Japanese soul ever tell me that, yet I've heard the "you'll never be Japanese line" countless times from foreigners-- sometimes directly to my face. Although, I kind of invite that sort of comment as I run a site called "turning-japanese".

I think you may have been lucky on this one. I have had that experience multiple times, but not expressed in precisely those words. Of course no Japanese (or very few Japanese) would tell you to your face that "you'll never be Japanese," but there are numerous other ways to say it.

Example 1: in one somewhat contentious business meeting where the "other side" wasn't getting that they wanted and were quite annoyed about it, "our side" was told that we should leave so that "we Japanese can discuss it among ourselves." They could have said "we need to discuss this in private," but they actually said "we Japanese will discuss it amongst ourselves." There were Japanese on "our side" as well, BTW, but there were also two westerners.

Example 2: in a disagreement with my (RIP) father's second wife -- that's family, you know -- I was told (to my face) that "I'd understand if I was Japanese." This is a from a Japanese woman who was married to a damn foreigner, in a discussion concerning said damn foreigner.

There are more where those came from, and all of them point to the fact that in a pinch, when people aren't getting what they want or see that there's no way to win an argument or feel that their pride is about to be hurt, they will revert to excluding you on the grounds that you don't share the same ethnicity. They are saying "you will never be one of us," just not in those exact words. I've been here about 43~44 years all told, and my language ability and general cultural understanding are pretty good, if I do say so myself, so it's not like I attract such responses by walking into people's houses with my shoes on or using soap in the bathtub. When there's a problem, whether it has anything to do with ethnicity or not, a significant number of people will jump to the conclusion that it is an ethnicity issue because that's the easiest way out. If you haven't seen it yet, I'm prepared to bet that you will. But going back to my original point, the best way to deal with it is ... deal with it.

[matsuki]

Oddly enough, I can agree with what Havill is saying about the snarky remarks likely coming more from FG than Japanese. I've had to deal with "looking white" but being half native with a funny name all my life. Most of the "white" side of the family wasn't nearby so I sure as hell didn't feel "white" growing up with mostly the injun side of the family. That being said, most of the "but....you're white" comments definitely came from white people and all of the (hateful?resentful?) "you just use it when it's convenient" comments came from white people. Some people find it "unfair" that you have a family made up of more than one race/culture and get even more agitated if you identify more with the one you don't fit the stereotypical image of. On the flip side of the coin, if I mention I'm half to other injuns...many people start making remarks like "I see it! you have the high cheekbones!" and other stuff like that It's happened here as well when Japanese assume half means half Japanese. I don't even know what to make of that except agree with what Yoko said, you get used to esssplainin' it where necessary or just ignore it when it's not worth it.

[matsuki]

Dammit Yoko...you had to go and post again!

Wouldn't you just lump those situations and the idiots that said them into:

cases of real discrimination and exclusivism that people everywhere have to deal with too. A little more vexing than the above, and sometimes a confrontation is necessary, but mostly it's just a matter of dealing with it, innit.

[Yokohammer]

Dammit Yoko...you had to go and post again!

Wouldn't you just lump those situations and the idiots that said them into:

cases of real discrimination and exclusivism that people everywhere have to deal with too. A little more vexing than the above, and sometimes a confrontation is necessary, but mostly it's just a matter of dealing with it, innit.

Pretty much. Yes. But I was really shocked to hear it from someone who was supposedly family.

Situations like the ones I mentioned are where people reveal their true feelings, so it's useful to pay attention. Just thinking about it after I made that post I'm remembering so many more examples that my head is beginning to spin. Probably best not to think about it too much.

[wangta]

point and I don't intend any disrespect to you by that. I also mean no disrespect to Havill who is a naturalised Japanese but along with Debito cannot really be Japanese according to the vast majority of Japanese people in the society and also according to the cultural norms both of Japanese daily life and centuries of tradition.

Japanese (and Chinese/Korean/most Asian societies/other non Asian societies) draw very clear boundaries between the natives as in people who are the predominant culture along with homogeneity of appearance, and outsiders. For example, China with its significant minorities and long history of inter-ethnic mixing and rulers from minority ethnic groups still defines itself by the Han Chinese tradition and concept.

And the outsiders in Japan in 2014 are still people who don't look like what most people in Japan look like down to the almond/less rounded eyes, black to very dark brown hair naturally, straight hair. Other Asians 'pass' but when their ethnicity is known then they are not considered Japanese in the real sense.

This will not change as long as Japanese people want to preserve their traditions of a closed society based on 'blood ties' and the broad kinship they feel as Japanese. Their very existence is so bound up with this identity and they are also very nationalistic in the sense of preserving homogeneity.

This will not change in the foreseeable future as the Japanese do not want mass immigration. They like things as they are, no matter that they have social problems etc, these are mitigated by the ease of living in a society where nearly everyone else speaks the same native language and they deal with socio-politico-cultural challenges in the way they prefer.

I can understand that as it would cause a huge amount of disruption to the reference points and securities they have as an homogenous society. The Japanese are poorly equipped to deal with the real globalisation that immigrant societies have had for some time.

Nearly every western country that has seen its population diversifying rapidly is having some problems accepting this as unemployment bites, cities are overcrowding, resources are getting scarcer, taxes will have to go up to accommodate some of the newcomers who don't contribute much or anything financially, etc.

The Japanese shun mass immigration and will keep doing so. And it's not like western countries are models of harmonious co-existence with respect for multiculturalism and diversity (and indeed at times the diversity should be unacceptable when it involves such nasties as child marriages, female mutilation etc etc). The white face is still seen as the European, American, English, NZ, Canadian norm despite the reality of 3rd generation natives who are Black, Asian, Middle Eastern etc.

Debito could convince himself til the cows come home that he is Japanese because he naturalised but it does not make him and most likely never will in his and our lifetimes

Thanks for that. Obviously, you're not the first English nym to post an invented in the 20th century Nihonjinron* in response to a comment or question about acceptance into Japan, and you won't be the last, so I've heard it before.

The essays are useful in one respect: they tell me a lot about how YOU think — not so much about how the Collective thinks.

* i realize there was a little more to your reply than just nihonjinron, so I apologize in advance for cherry picking.

Who the hell is justifying Japanese exceptionalism and some of the rubbish coming from 20th or that fact 21st century Nihonjinron advocates? Regardless of a Japanese passport belonging to a white or any other non Japanese origin person - I am stating facts about how JAPANESE SOCIETY is constituted and how not some but the vast majority of Japanese see themselves.

It is irrelevant whether you or Debito think it should be or is different in that scheme of things. Your manifest air of superiority on these forums certainly can't handle people just as or better informed than you on certain issues. I like to give reasons for things and critique things instead of asserting with the air of entitlement that you do.

The Japanese have a fair bit of Malay and other south-east Asian ancestry way back. They have a fair bit of central Asian tribe ancestry way back courtesy of the ethnic groups who later came to be known as Korean. They have some Han Chinese ancestry. They are not a race and they are ethnically mixed. However, through historical, self-enforced isolation and other factors they identity as people of a certain racial/blood identity who have maintained their traditions and culture.

Whether anybody else likes it or not. It is THEIR perception that is the key point here. Not non-Japanese as in by ancestry as defined by Japanese society and culture.

And yes they have kept their sense of identity in a globalised world and they kept it in the period in past centuries and up to the end of the 2nd World War whereas in that same period European nation states and British subject states were being created, often forcibly.

To give an example - native Irish people didn't give up their language and traditions to be part of the British Empire voluntarily. The fact that Irish people now and in the Irish diaspora around the world do not speak Gaelic as the norm, mostly know not one word of their traditional language, do not have polygamous relationships, do not know old customs, and do not keep up with extended kin is not because they did not want to maintain all that.

It's because they were colonised. Millions left Ireland in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries because there were just about no positive alternatives especially during the Famines of the 19th century which were much to do with destructive socio-economic policies enforced by British rule. The Irish are just one example of many that could be given. The Japanese did not have to leave their own country and of course historically they were not free to travel whether outside their own country or within it exept for the favoured few.

The way Japanese culture and society is now could have been replicated in different ways of course in many other countries of the world had they kept themselves isolated for so long and resistant to significant movement of other peoples into their countries or had they not been forced into new countries with re-drawn boundaries by empires, colonisation, and war.

The numbers of Korean Japanese and Chinese Japanese from former colonies are few compared to the numbers of peoples from former British colonies moving to the UK, Canada and Australia for example. Western societies have opened up to taking significant numbers of people from completely different backgrounds in all ways to the host cultures.

Japan has not opened up and will not unless there is mass immigration as Japanese government policy. And there won't be in our lifetime.

[Wage Slave]

I was going to say something very similar to Yoko but he said it far, far better. Accept it and deal with it ........ Or just create your own reality and believe in it .....And good luck to you. There's a lot to be said for it ....And it's pretty Japanese too.

[havill]

... ugh ... stupid BBforum ... can't delete a hosed after-edit.