Afraid of turning Japanese?

[matsuki]

I`d be interested in knowing what it is that FGers think `being Japanese` means and by extension what there is to be afraid of. I certainly see a very few legal differences – different passport, no ARC, voting, but few other differences. IMO there is as much variation in views, tastes in food, etc. – within Japanese, as there is in the foreign community. So is it a personal feeling of possibly not fitting in, or maybe a self-consciousness over looking different, or an expectation that they might lose some special position or privilege, or exactly what?

In the land of nihonjin/gaijin, wa[ ]/yo[ ]/gai[ ], etc. etc. for better or worse...it's kind of impossible to avoid being categorized like everything else here just on FG looks alone. At least in the workplace, I think (whether true or not) the mindset is if you're Japanese, you will be treated with less respect, forced to fall in with the group, and expected to take on unreasonable additional work without complaint.

I've often thought that and I agree that Yokohammer summed it up pretty well. I wasn't trying to say it was negative or positive for the record. It's just an observation. The guys I'm talking about are all single.

Single jives with my experiences as well. The flip side is if they marry a local. One dude I know that was always saying "for everything I love about Japan, there are 5 things that I absolutely hate." He was military so the gaijin bubble was strong with him. Once he married a local and had kids, he suddenly started trying to sell everyone that wasn't living here about how great Japan is...complete with some exaggerated hype

[Samurai_Jerk]

Is there some kind of official chart detailing the relationship between types of food consumed in an izakaya and fear of "turning Japanese" or "going native" or whatever that means?

All I know is that if you start eating dried squid, you might as well go out and buy a pair of getas.

ROR!

I'll eat it if someone else orders it but I don't think I've ever ordered it myself. By the way, that's one thing the Koreans actually do better. They somehow manage to get that squid funk out of the squid when they dry it.

What about grilled squid? That's one of those "weird" Japanese foods that A LOT of FG I know seem to LOVE. Even those who generally avoid other exotic fare. For me that's another one I'll eat if it's on the table but I've never thought, "Oooh ... Let's have the squid!"

[Salty]

Most of the long-term veterans I would term fluent can slip in and out of the Japanese and ex-pat worlds relatively smoothly. I don't view it as a binary situation.

Agreed - and I would add, that fluency and an outgoing personality connects you to new friends, no matter your nationality and no matter where you live. On the other hand - lack of language skills creates isolation and special needs to be filled with privilege – expat status, etc. I can understand not wanting to lose those extra benefits, but beyond that just don`t see anything to be afraid of.

[Salty]

Is there some kind of official chart detailing the relationship between types of food consumed in an izakaya and fear of "turning Japanese" or "going native" or whatever that means?

All I know is that if you start eating dried squid, you might as well go out and buy a pair of getas.

ROR!

I'll eat it if someone else orders it but I don't think I've ever ordered it myself. By the way, that's one thing the Koreans actually do better. They somehow manage to get that squid funk out of the squid when they dry it.

What about grilled squid? That's one of those "weird" Japanese foods that A LOT of FG I know seem to LOVE. Even those who generally avoid other exotic fare. For me that's another one I'll eat if it's on the table but I've never thought, "Oooh ... Let's have the squid!"

Maybe it was growing up on a farm - but there is no reason to be squeamish about exotic foods. Frog, snake, squirrel, rabbit, cat (don`t tell...), cow/calf, horse, pigs, turtles, pigeon/dove - and of course all of their body parts, aren`t exotic when compared to squid? IMO it is just what you are accustomed to eating, and what you are having for the first, and maybe second time. I`ll take squid any day over calf liver, but if offered frog legs you might just get your arm broken if you go after my share.

[Salty]

In the land of nihonjin/gaijin, wa[ ]/yo[ ]/gai[ ], etc. etc. for better or worse...it's kind of impossible to avoid being categorized like everything else here just on FG looks alone. At least in the workplace, I think (whether true or not) the mindset is if you're Japanese, you will be treated with less respect, forced to fall in with the group, and expected to take on unreasonable additional work without complaint.

I am going to take exception to this part… as IMO there is no such thing as `unreasonable additional work`. All work needs to be done, and from my experience from over 30 years working in, and managing mixed nationality teams – everybody did their share, foreigners included – and without complaint. But I was working with full time/salaried employees – so this might be different for part time/contract/fixed contract types.

[Coligny]

Is there some kind of official chart detailing the relationship between types of food consumed in an izakaya and fear of "turning Japanese" or "going native" or whatever that means?

All I know is that if you start eating dried squid, you might as well go out and buy a pair of getas.

ROR!

I'll eat it if someone else orders it but I don't think I've ever ordered it myself. By the way, that's one thing the Koreans actually do better. They somehow manage to get that squid funk out of the squid when they dry it.

What about grilled squid? That's one of those "weird" Japanese foods that A LOT of FG I know seem to LOVE. Even those who generally avoid other exotic fare. For me that's another one I'll eat if it's on the table but I've never thought, "Oooh ... Let's have the squid!"

Maybe it was growing up on a farm - but there is no reason to be squeamish about exotic foods. Frog, snake, squirrel, rabbit, cat (don`t tell...), cow/calf, horse, pigs, turtles, pigeon/dove - and of course all of their body parts, aren`t exotic when compared to squid? IMO it is just what you are accustomed to eating, and what you are having for the first, and maybe second time. I`ll take squid any day over calf liver, but if offered frog legs you might just get your arm broken if you go after my share.

I am going to find you
And I will kill you, burn your corpse and use the ashes as kitty litter.

once the weather gets a little better...

[Salty]

Is there some kind of official chart detailing the relationship between types of food consumed in an izakaya and fear of "turning Japanese" or "going native" or whatever that means?

All I know is that if you start eating dried squid, you might as well go out and buy a pair of getas.

ROR!

I'll eat it if someone else orders it but I don't think I've ever ordered it myself. By the way, that's one thing the Koreans actually do better. They somehow manage to get that squid funk out of the squid when they dry it.

What about grilled squid? That's one of those "weird" Japanese foods that A LOT of FG I know seem to LOVE. Even those who generally avoid other exotic fare. For me that's another one I'll eat if it's on the table but I've never thought, "Oooh ... Let's have the squid!"

Maybe it was growing up on a farm - but there is no reason to be squeamish about exotic foods. Frog, snake, squirrel, rabbit, cat (don`t tell...), cow/calf, horse, pigs, turtles, pigeon/dove - and of course all of their body parts, aren`t exotic when compared to squid? IMO it is just what you are accustomed to eating, and what you are having for the first, and maybe second time. I`ll take squid any day over calf liver, but if offered frog legs you might just get your arm broken if you go after my share.

I am going to find you
And I will kill you, burn your corpse and use the ashes as kitty litter.

once the weather gets a little better...

Yikes! And I forgot to add dogs too...

[Coligny]

In the land of nihonjin/gaijin, wa[ ]/yo[ ]/gai[ ], etc. etc. for better or worse...it's kind of impossible to avoid being categorized like everything else here just on FG looks alone. At least in the workplace, I think (whether true or not) the mindset is if you're Japanese, you will be treated with less respect, forced to fall in with the group, and expected to take on unreasonable additional work without complaint.

I am going to take exception to this part… as IMO there is no such thing as `unreasonable additional work`. All work needs to be done, and from my experience from over 30 years working in, and managing mixed nationality teams – everybody did their share, foreigners included – and without complaint. But I was working with full time/salaried employees – so this might be different for part time/contract/fixed contract types.

And all work done need to be paid...

as long as everyone play by the same book it's ok...

[Samurai_Jerk]

Maybe it was growing up on a farm - but there is no reason to be squeamish about exotic foods. Frog, snake, squirrel, rabbit, cat (don`t tell...), cow/calf, horse, pigs, turtles, pigeon/dove - and of course all of their body parts, aren`t exotic when compared to squid? IMO it is just what you are accustomed to eating, and what you are having for the first, and maybe second time. I`ll take squid any day over calf liver, but if offered frog legs you might just get your arm broken if you go after my share.

I'm kind of the same. I didn't grow up on a farm but I lived most of my life till age 14 in rural farm county. I gutted the fish I caught in the pond in back of our house, drank goat's milk, ate venison after watching hunters butcher the buck they just shot, and got to see freshly slaughtered whole hogs get prepped for the annual church BBQ. On top of that I had a German grandmother who wasn't afraid of organ meat and cooked up the giblets that came with the chicken. She also believed that beef could only be served bloody and ate raw hamburger sandwiches. My family didn't eat things like squirrel, snapping turtle, and frog legs but I knew people who did so it never seemed that strange to me. Then there were the trips to the coast see my other grandparents and cooking crabs and shucking oysters we'd just pulled from the bay.

One the opposite end of the spectrum is my friend who grew up sheltered in the suburbs. She got grossed out by the sight of slabs of uncured bacon cooking on the hot plate at a the Korea BBQ in Shin Okubo but had no problem eating the gyoza because she couldn't see the pork.

[matsuki]

In the land of nihonjin/gaijin, wa[ ]/yo[ ]/gai[ ], etc. etc. for better or worse...it's kind of impossible to avoid being categorized like everything else here just on FG looks alone. At least in the workplace, I think (whether true or not) the mindset is if you're Japanese, you will be treated with less respect, forced to fall in with the group, and expected to take on unreasonable additional work without complaint.

I am going to take exception to this part… as IMO there is no such thing as `unreasonable additional work`. All work needs to be done, and from my experience from over 30 years working in, and managing mixed nationality teams – everybody did their share, foreigners included – and without complaint. But I was working with full time/salaried employees – so this might be different for part time/contract/fixed contract types.

And all work done need to be paid...

as long as everyone play by the same book it's ok...

Salty, the difference there is you not being a Japanese manager. I'm guessing you also didn't abuse the whole senpai/kohai thing either. (while I see it in good fun with hockey, I've also seen it abused in the workplace...once I had a shacho literally kicking his employee in front of me as he talked shit to him...employee cried and took it without complaint) I don't think that type of stuff is as common in the gaishikei workplace.

Many of my J-friends working at smaller companies are always complaining about being forced to do the work/time of 2-3 people. Someone quits or the company just doesn't want to hire additional staff when there is added work...so they end up working off the clock with no overtime pay. The companies don't care about turnover either....as there are people lined up to take their places. Not unique to Japan or even Asia for small businesses to pay less and expect more...but the expectations here go beyond reason more often than I'd like. Anyhow, most FG (unless you're from an impoverished nation) won't put up with that shit. Of course at the larger companies, you often have the opposite as well...too many people "working" on projects at a snail's pace.

[Samurai_Jerk]

In the land of nihonjin/gaijin, wa[ ]/yo[ ]/gai[ ], etc. etc. for better or worse...it's kind of impossible to avoid being categorized like everything else here just on FG looks alone. At least in the workplace, I think (whether true or not) the mindset is if you're Japanese, you will be treated with less respect, forced to fall in with the group, and expected to take on unreasonable additional work without complaint.

I am going to take exception to this part… as IMO there is no such thing as `unreasonable additional work`. All work needs to be done, and from my experience from over 30 years working in, and managing mixed nationality teams – everybody did their share, foreigners included – and without complaint. But I was working with full time/salaried employees – so this might be different for part time/contract/fixed contract types.

And all work done need to be paid...

as long as everyone play by the same book it's ok...

Salty, the difference there is you not being a Japanese manager. I'm guessing you also didn't abuse the whole senpai/kohai thing either. (while I see it in good fun with hockey, I've also seen it abused in the workplace...once I had a shacho literally kicking his employee in front of me as he talked shit to him...employee cried and took it without complaint) I don't think that type of stuff is as common in the gaishikei workplace.

Many of my J-friends working at smaller companies are always complaining about being forced to do the work/time of 2-3 people. Someone quits or the company just doesn't want to hire additional staff when there is added work...so they end up working off the clock with no overtime pay. The companies don't care about turnover either....as there are people lined up to take their places. Not unique to Japan or even Asia for small businesses to pay less and expect more...but the expectations here go beyond reason more often than I'd like. Anyhow, most FG (unless you're from an impoverished nation) won't put up with that shit. Of course at the larger companies, you often have the opposite as well...too many people "working" on projects at a snail's pace.

Though the employers are scumbags the willingness of people to put up with that bullshit is amazing. It's not easy to fire people in Japan and the courts are very labor friendly but employees still take it.

[matsuki]

Though the employers are scumbags the willingness of people to put up with that bullshit is amazing. It's not easy to fire people in Japan and the courts are very labor friendly but employees still take it.

Totally...so if you look at it from a employer's point of view, you're better off hiring Japanese who take the abuse without complaint. From the J-people putting up with it, I've literally heard them say "I wish I was gaijin so I didn't have to deal with this shit" as if being Japanese obligated them to keep the wa take it like a little bitch. (especially from Japanese who have lived/worked abroad)

[Salty]

Though the employers are scumbags the willingness of people to put up with that bullshit is amazing. It's not easy to fire people in Japan and the courts are very labor friendly but employees still take it.

Totally...so if you look at it from a employer's point of view, you're better off hiring Japanese who take the abuse without complaint. From the J-people putting up with it, I've literally heard them say "I wish I was gaijin so I didn't have to deal with this shit" as if being Japanese obligated them to keep the wa take it like a little bitch. (especially from Japanese who have lived/worked abroad)

In the beginning of my work here, as a non-manager, I too had my OT hours cut on paper, so only received a portion of what was due. This was true for all employees where I worked, so wasn`t liked – but was accepted as being fair. But I did see a `returnee` quit and go back to the US, instead of accepting the long work hours and low pay. Of course we had others who quit too, so I don`t accept that low level Japanese employees must simply take bad treatment.

Eventually I quit too, and from there only worked for multinationals.

[matsuki]

Though the employers are scumbags the willingness of people to put up with that bullshit is amazing. It's not easy to fire people in Japan and the courts are very labor friendly but employees still take it.

Totally...so if you look at it from a employer's point of view, you're better off hiring Japanese who take the abuse without complaint. From the J-people putting up with it, I've literally heard them say "I wish I was gaijin so I didn't have to deal with this shit" as if being Japanese obligated them to keep the wa take it like a little bitch. (especially from Japanese who have lived/worked abroad)

In the beginning of my work here, as a non-manager, I too had my OT hours cut on paper, so only received a portion of what was due. This was true for all employees where I worked, so wasn`t liked – but was accepted as being fair. But I did see a `returnee` quit and go back to the US, instead of accepting the long work hours and low pay. Of course we had others who quit too, so I don`t accept that low level Japanese employees must simply take bad treatment.

Eventually I quit too, and from there only worked for multinationals.

Oh I'm sure it goes on with FG employees as well and many Japanese do quit but wouldn't you agree if you had 10 FG and 10 Japanese in that situation, more Japanese will feel cultural/family/etc. pressure to grin and bear it whereas more FG will simply look for work elsewhere?

What about taking vacation days? My FG friends give adequate notice and take the time off even if their department has been suddenly thrown some excessive work. The one dude I know who considered cancelling his trip...he consulted his boss to ask if the company would reimburse him for the cancelled airfare and was told the only incentive he would get for staying to work would be to keep his job. (he took the vacation anyway and wasn't let go) On the other hand, I know many J-friends that have cancelled vacations because of the "trouble it would cause the company/coworkers."

[Samurai_Jerk]

One of my Japanese buddies recently changed jobs and when he gave notice he had 35 days of unused paid vacation stored up. I told him that since he gave a month's notice he should just take the rest of the time off. He said he couldn't do that but he'd definitely take advantage of it. I think he used maybe 5 of those days. And this is a guy who was working as a day service helper taking care of senior citizens who was always getting fucked over by the company's owner and got paid jack shit. To top it off they gave him a whopping 280,000 yen as taishokukin for 5 years of service.

[matsuki]

One of my Japanese buddies recently changed jobs and when he gave notice he had 35 days of unused paid vacation stored up. I told him that since he gave a month's notice he should just take the rest of the time off. He said he couldn't do that but he'd definitely take advantage of it. I think he used maybe 5 of those days. And this is a guy who was working as a day service helper taking care of senior citizens who was always getting fucked over by the company's owner and got paid jack shit. To top it off they gave him a whopping 280,000 yen as taishokukin for 5 years of service.

Isn't that illegal to not pay him for that?

My father decided to retire 2 years early due to all the unused paid vacation he had racked up...they were phasing in caps on how much you could save up so basically he had to use it or lose it. He had some health issues but was able to stay on the company insurance and receive all the other company benefits for that time. Not sure how much he got but I know he was shocked at how well he was taken care of when he finally retired. (there were also all these weird company status gifts as well)

[kurogane]

In 1993 when my ex gave notice for her national civil service job she had about 2 months of vacation days left over, so I convinced her to take it and we would go to Thailand. Her superiors went absolutely ballistic when she "requested" it. Her mentor type supervisor almost had to be threatened to calm down he was so furious and abusive. I don't think it's about the vacation time or not; it's more like a power/control thing and probably that pissy envy thing they get when somebody gets or makes a better deal; that Fairness thing where it's only fair if they get the best bit. But let's not forget that lots of Japanese claim they would rather take their vacations, or their days off, or get paid for overtime they worked but they actually enjoy the self-sacrifice and self-victimisation more. Matuski's friends and the like talk like that because it's English or because they're talking to a foreigner (esp. one that hates Japan) but if they meant it they would do something about it like lots of other Japanese do. The main difference is that Americans, etc. exaggerate how much they get paid for OT and such and how they demand it where Japanese under report and claim they can't ask for it. Lots of salaried employees in NA are working long hours for little extra compensation. They do get paid a shitload more, mind.

So, BOT: I thought it was hilarious how even a thoughtful seasoned veteran like you made that unconscious connection between linguistic fluency and a preference for Japanese food (as I said, major Luv Japan! Twattersphere trope and a personal pet peeve). What an incredibly durable false syllyjism that is, eh!?? No criticism intended. It just shows how much we all take in and accept without realising it.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Isn't that illegal to not pay him for that?

Nope. According to more than one HR manger I've spoken with it's actually illegal to pay people out for unused vacation here. It was a law that was apparently passed to force people to use their vacation back in the days when almost no one was every taking time off but it didn't have the intended effect. I do know people working for foreign investment banks who got paid out for unused leave but my guess is that on paper it was classified as something else.

The main difference is that Americans, etc. exaggerate how much they get paid for OT and such and how they demand it where Japanese under report and claim they can't ask for it. Lots of salaried employees in NA are working long hours for little extra compensation. They do get paid a shitload more, mind.

Yeah, a lot of people seem to imagine that the US and Canada are like Europe when it comes to time off and overtime but they're probably closer to Japan. Plus a lot fewer national holidays (at least in America).

[kurogane]

Yes on that paid vacation time law, and that was the stated motive, and to the bottom part too. I have lots of serious yuppie friends here that work like dogs. OTOH, they get paid well. I have always been a little surprised by what Japanese consider a high salary, even the gold digging Gucci Bag Girls.

[matsuki]

Wow...that's just fucked but I do vaguely remember that there was some sort of law to encourage people to take their vacation days.

Kuro - I can see a few people enjoying the pity that comes along with the sacrificial "victimization" and how they can see it as bragging rights. In a few of the more popular fields, my friends were sure they're be forced to quit and be replaced immediately if they took time off. They were convinced it would be like a huge red mark on their resume as well as expected shit talking to any prospective future employers who called the would be former employer. Not sure how much of that is paranoia and BS but they were certainly convinced of their place in society.

I have always been a little surprised by what Japanese consider a high salary, even the gold digging Gucci Bag Girls.

Ask the younger ones...many have this image of the average salary man making １千万円+

[Samurai_Jerk]

In a few of the more popular fields, my friends were sure they're be forced to quit and be replaced immediately if they took time off. They were convinced it would be like a huge red mark on their resume as well as expected shit talking to any prospective future employers who called the would be former employer. Not sure how much of that is paranoia and BS but they were certainly convinced of their place in society.

A lot of that is paranoia that is reinforced through bullying. There is no way in hell a company in Japan could get away with firing a full-time employee because they took a vacation if the victim chose to challenge it and it wouldn't be a black mark on their record. The fact is most bosses don't go around bashing ex employees even if they were shit because it makes them look bad and those who do are generally looked down upon by other people in their industry. Besides most companies in Japan don't do reference or background checks.

Ask the younger ones...many have this image of the average salary man making １千万円+

What do they actually mean by average? That's not unusual for someone in his 40's with a university degree from an OK school working at a mid-sized or bigger Japanese corporation. That might no be the true average but I think that's what most of them imagine when they think of a salary man.

[wagyl]

I can also confirm that it is illegal to swap leave owing to you for cash: the thinking is that allowing the employer to buy back leave time would lead to power harassment and bullying so that employees would end up getting less leave than was healthy.

Of course we all know that the nett result of this decision is that they have the lesser leave, and also go without monetary compensation.

[matsuki]

In a few of the more popular fields, my friends were sure they're be forced to quit and be replaced immediately if they took time off. They were convinced it would be like a huge red mark on their resume as well as expected shit talking to any prospective future employers who called the would be former employer. Not sure how much of that is paranoia and BS but they were certainly convinced of their place in society.

A lot of that is paranoia that is reinforced through bullying. There is no way in hell a company in Japan could get away with firing a full-time employee because they took a vacation if the victim chose to challenge it and it wouldn't be a black mark on their record. The fact is most bosses don't go around bashing ex employees even if they were shit because it makes them look bad and those who do are generally looked down upon by other people in their industry. Besides most companies in Japan don't do reference or background checks.

That're what I figured but try explaining that to them and it turns to "this is just how it is in Japan." My current employer still swears up and down that when he was younger, companies used to send out people to check your residence, spy on you, and inquire with your neighbors about what kind of person you are.

Ask the younger ones...many have this image of the average salary man making １千万円+

What do they actually mean by average? That's not unusual for someone in his 40's with a university degree from an OK school working at a mid-sized or bigger Japanese corporation. That might no be the true average but I think that's what most of them imagine when they think of a salary man.

They're talking about late 20's, early 30's...and most of the J-guys I know claim they have this unrealistic view because they don't know what their own father makes. Having asked the occupation of many a girl's parents, most don't seem to know much beyond "salaryman" so they could be right.

I can also confirm that it is illegal to swap leave owing to you for cash: the thinking is that allowing the employer to buy back leave time would lead to power harassment and bullying so that employees would end up getting less leave than was healthy.

Of course we all know that the nett result of this decision is that they have the lesser leave, and also go without monetary compensation.

That is indeed a sorry situation...

[Salty]

Though the employers are scumbags the willingness of people to put up with that bullshit is amazing. It's not easy to fire people in Japan and the courts are very labor friendly but employees still take it.

Totally...so if you look at it from a employer's point of view, you're better off hiring Japanese who take the abuse without complaint. From the J-people putting up with it, I've literally heard them say "I wish I was gaijin so I didn't have to deal with this shit" as if being Japanese obligated them to keep the wa take it like a little bitch. (especially from Japanese who have lived/worked abroad)

In the beginning of my work here, as a non-manager, I too had my OT hours cut on paper, so only received a portion of what was due. This was true for all employees where I worked, so wasn`t liked – but was accepted as being fair. But I did see a `returnee` quit and go back to the US, instead of accepting the long work hours and low pay. Of course we had others who quit too, so I don`t accept that low level Japanese employees must simply take bad treatment.

Eventually I quit too, and from there only worked for multinationals.

Oh I'm sure it goes on with FG employees as well and many Japanese do quit but wouldn't you agree if you had 10 FG and 10 Japanese in that situation, more Japanese will feel cultural/family/etc. pressure to grin and bear it whereas more FG will simply look for work elsewhere?

What about taking vacation days? My FG friends give adequate notice and take the time off even if their department has been suddenly thrown some excessive work. The one dude I know who considered cancelling his trip...he consulted his boss to ask if the company would reimburse him for the cancelled airfare and was told the only incentive he would get for staying to work would be to keep his job. (he took the vacation anyway and wasn't let go) On the other hand, I know many J-friends that have cancelled vacations because of the "trouble it would cause the company/coworkers."

Yes - I accept all of that... but I too rarely too vacations, generally worked thru holiday periods, etc. But I do accept that the Japanese junior staff are generally stuck.

[Salty]

On vacation payouts - it is OK to do so when an employee is leaving. Essentially putting them on vacation and extending the termination date. The crunch comes if they are quickly going to a new job - since they cannot be an employee of two firms at once. As an HR manager, I negotiated a `bonus` payment to cover the `lost vacation` time so that the departing employee still got paid for it.

[Samurai_Jerk]

On vacation payouts - it is OK to do so when an employee is leaving. Essentially putting them on vacation and extending the termination date. The crunch comes if they are quickly going to a new job - since they cannot be an employee of two firms at once. As an HR manager, I negotiated a `bonus` payment to cover the `lost vacation` time so that the departing employee still got paid for it.

Sure there are ways around it but not everyone can take advantage of those. You actually can work for more than one company if both employers give you permission to do so. Too bad they're usually too narrow minded to consider it in such cases.

Speaking of no outside work, the silliest case I know of was a guy who had to get permission from the real estate asset management company he worked for to enter fishing contests because they gave cash prizes. Thankfully HR allowed him to continue to pursue his weekend hobby.

[Salty]

On vacation payouts - it is OK to do so when an employee is leaving. Essentially putting them on vacation and extending the termination date. The crunch comes if they are quickly going to a new job - since they cannot be an employee of two firms at once. As an HR manager, I negotiated a `bonus` payment to cover the `lost vacation` time so that the departing employee still got paid for it.

Sure there are ways around it but not everyone can take advantage of those. You actually can work for more than one company if both employers give you permission to do so. Too bad they're usually too narrow minded to consider it in such cases.

Speaking of no outside work, the silliest case I know of was a guy who had to get permission from the real estate asset management company he worked for to enter fishing contests because they gave cash prizes. Thankfully HR allowed him to continue to pursue his weekend hobby.

Yes - maybe that restriction is actually a company rule of employment restriction - tied to presumed loyalty, company managing unemployment insurance & taxation, etc.

[matsuki]

On vacation payouts - it is OK to do so when an employee is leaving. Essentially putting them on vacation and extending the termination date. The crunch comes if they are quickly going to a new job - since they cannot be an employee of two firms at once. As an HR manager, I negotiated a `bonus` payment to cover the `lost vacation` time so that the departing employee still got paid for it.

Sounds like that's what Kuro's girl essentially did...and they threw a fit:

In 1993 when my ex gave notice for her national civil service job she had about 2 months of vacation days left over, so I convinced her to take it and we would go to Thailand. Her superiors went absolutely ballistic when she "requested" it. Her mentor type supervisor almost had to be threatened to calm down he was so furious and abusive. I don't think it's about the vacation time or not; it's more like a power/control thing and probably that pissy envy thing they get when somebody gets or makes a better deal; that Fairness thing where it's only fair if they get the best bit.

Makes me wonder if anyone has thought to film a superior in this situation. That kind of shit when requesting what they're legally entitled to...

[wagyl]

Because confronting someone with a camera when they are not comfortable about it will always result in a win for you, no matter how good or bad the other person's actions are...

From my own experiences in this area, I get the feeling that one of the strongest motives here is jealousy, jealousy that the person leaving has such freedom of action that they can afford to take a few risks, which means that they have room to manoeuvre so that they don't have to take the first measly offer made. When I make an exit, I do my darnedest to make sure it is from a position of strength, so that I can be firm about the terms I am after. To my surprise, that hasn't resulted in any burned bridges either -- perhaps it has resulted in greater respect. There have been times that I got the strong impression that the middle manager I was leaving wished that he could do the same, but financial commitments prevented him from making any move.

[matsuki]

Because confronting someone with a camera when they are not comfortable about it will always result in a win for you, no matter how good or bad the other person's actions are...

From my own experiences in this area, I get the feeling that one of the strongest motives here is jealousy, jealousy that the person leaving has such freedom of action that they can afford to take a few risks, which means that they have room to manoeuvre so that they don't have to take the first measly offer made. When I make an exit, I do my darnedest to make sure it is from a position of strength, so that I can be firm about the terms I am after. To my surprise, that hasn't resulted in any burned bridges either -- perhaps it has resulted in greater respect. There have been times that I got the strong impression that the middle manager I was leaving wished that he could do the same, but financial commitments prevented him from making any move.

Doesn't have to be with the holding a keitai camera in their face...



But does take some effort.

You're doing something right if they are calling to ask you back