Veganism in Japan: "Let them eat sashimi."

[same]

see below

[same]

So groups advocating animal rights tend to be liberal. How about individuals? I'm thinking of farmers who traditionally vote conservative but take pride in how they treat their livestock. Wasn't it big corporations that introduced factory farming and other techniques that are described as cruel as a way to save money? Just as a matter of interest, are human rights also a liberal concept?

Socs, what do you think of the idea that this is more of a historical debate than a political one? My feeling is that rights have improved for lots of parties over the last few hundred years and form a fundamental part of how we respect ourselves as a society. Human rights are not all equal, as it would be ridiculous to demand better ante natal care for men. Animal rights mightn't just be an "extension" of human rights, but a separate group of values.

Although Peter Singer is one of the easier to understand philosophers since your good self, I'm not convinced on the suffering issue. Even if someone could be proven to be unable to feel pain, no society would advocate inflicting it upon them, if for no other reason than because it's unnecessary. I think it's more about where we draw the line and what people or animals we choose to include on our side. I also think that line is surprisingly arbritrary. It's really hard for a lot of countries to understand why Japan continues to eat whale. Whales, despite being Nazis, are almost gods in some cultures. Kids often ascribe human feelings to animals, and this feeling about whales (separate from the conservation issue) seems very much akin. More important than extending our human sympathies to animals is the issue of avoiding what isn't necessary. To eat an animal at some point you're going to have to kill it, but how that's achieved what happens up to it should be a matter for discussion.

This might be of interest. There's a highly informative debate on meat eating about twenty minutes in:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbc7/listenagain/tuesday/rams/2300.ram

[Crambo]

I don't really want to add any more opinion to this thing than it already has, but as long as you're getting all your dietary requirements you're fine with me!

[Caustic Saint]

Link to Maddox's rant

He writes great rants - which is good, because somebody needs to since Dennis Miller pussed out.

[Socratesabroad]

So groups advocating animal rights tend to be liberal. How about individuals?
Just as a matter of interest, are human rights also a liberal concept?

I don't think human rights are a conservative or liberal issue, whereas animal rights are partisan. Why? Because both sides agree on the existence of human rights, although they may disagree on the logic behind them or the emphasis they should receive in policy. This is in sharp contrast to animal rights because, well, animals don't have rights. That is to say most of humanity does not assign rights to animals, so anyone suggesting animals should have rights is decidedly partisan.


And as for the issue of treatment of livestock, that falls under animal welfare, which is something people like myself fully support. Note, however, that livestock are property like a tractor or shed and can be disposed of as the owner sees fit (within the confines of the law - this applies to the tractor and shed as well). Similarly, animals can be eaten, kept as pets, and so forth, acts which the 'animal rights' movement/campaign/community/whatever firmly opposes.

Socs, what do you think of the idea that this is more of a historical debate than a political one?
To eat an animal at some point you're going to have to kill it, but how that's achieved what happens up to it should be a matter for discussion.

I honestly don't believe that there is a debate, any more than I believe my breakfast choices should be debated - there is no discussion. Like most of humanity, I do not believe animals have rights. Period. The end. Now people who do are free, like any group with religious beliefs, to follow their practices and philosophies - as long as my freedom of action is not affected.

And as for pain and suffering, well, Singer's a bit off - his approach is far more philosophy than hard science...

[same]

Right, I see there's a difference between animal rights and animal welfare in the current parlance. Socs your position is to use animals for our benefit, but you wouldn't support unnecessary cruelty, right? That seems to be the animal welfare position. So the laws against animal cruelty would fall under the welfare umbrella, not the rights umbrella, in your book? The animal rights position seems to be to oppose just about any intervention from humans at all, including keeping pets. What do they think of the symbiotic relationship between humans and hunting dogs and mousing cats?

Seems everytime a group gets big, shit starts to happen. And then people react back. That's where the current confusion between vegetarian and militant activist has come from. I never quite understood why people wanted to talk about eating steak in front of vegetarians. Some people are afraid the vegos are trying to take it away!

Don't mean to flog a dead horse

[Buraku]

Seaweed and ginger with spinach a vegetarian salad to savour
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5hEvmpZGJe2QHnP6vci_XHRlf1Adg

BTW AdolfHitler was Vegan

[Greji]

BTW AdolfHitler was Vegan

Good point. To the gas chambers with the whales!

[Taro Toporific]

Crocodile sashimi at a grand opening of Jusco in Shenzhen ...

...more...

[Big Booger]

Crocodile sashimi at a grand opening of Jusco in Shenzhen ...

...more...

What the fuck won't Chinese people eat? Someone clue me in? Fucking civet cats, worms, crickets, dogs, skunks, alligators... what in the hell is taboo or off the menu for your typical Chinaman? I am simply amazed.

And if this is in China, why in the fuck is the price in yen and not yuan?

[Marked Trail]