After Hurricane Katrina. (photos of Miami after the storm)

[IkemenTommy]

Yes but comparing an earthquake and a hurricane are two different things. There are no prior warning system for an earthquake but the people in New Orleans had enough time to leave. We may know that there will be a huge earthquake some day, but that's a chance I can live with.

[GuyJean]

This is why I don't live in the south.
These people who died were fuckin dumb to say the least.
If they were told that the whole place will be flooded and under water, get the fuck out of town.

Most were poor... Poor sometimes means no car. What do you do then?

GJ

[cstaylor]

If the President understood that little adage: "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure" and had not slashed the funding for levee reconstruction, NO would be standing today without incident.

[dimwit]

A very interesting article in Scientific American written four years ago offers an interesting perspective on all this.

[IkemenTommy]

This is why I don't live in the south.
These people who died were fuckin dumb to say the least.
If they were told that the whole place will be flooded and under water, get the fuck out of town.

Most were poor... Poor sometimes means no car. What do you do then?

GJ

Public transportation? But you'll say that such a thing in the US is like an utopian concept and nonexistent.

If they cared to live, they would've found some method to move out regardless they don't have cars.

[IkemenTommy]

If the President understood that little adage: "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure" and had not slashed the funding for levee reconstruction, NO would be standing today without incident.

Wouldn't this be a municipal issue and that the city of New Orleans create an ordinance funded by their own tax to build the levies? Why would it be the president's fault?

[GuyJean]

Come on GJ

Come on, KG. You didn't expect a more rapid response to a disaster?.. After 9/11? Plans should've been hanging on the wall before this happened]1)This turned into a Cat 5 level storm very quickly[/quote] They were tracking it for a week prior.. Albert posted pictures of what it did and started this thread on August 26th.. Even a Cat 4 would seem to merit warning..

3) It's not like there are some rather serious laws that prevents the US Gov from rolling into a part of the US and start ordering everyone.

Really?
FEMA Executive Orders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fema

* allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
* allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
* allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
* allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
* allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
* allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
* allows to designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
* allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
* allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned if contaminated beyond reasonable means of decontamination, and establish new locations for populations.
* allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.
* allows them to specify the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.
* allows them to grant authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.
* allows them to assign emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.
* allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation.

I agree that the blame should also be shared by the state, but the Feds are sometimes a contributing factor for making messes of the States. As soon as Katrina hit, it became a Fed issue.. It's that simple.

I wonder if it would've taken 72 hours to declare a state of emergency in Florida?

GJ

[Charles]

This is why I don't live in the south.
These people who died were fuckin dumb to say the least.
If they were told that the whole place will be flooded and under water, get the fuck out of town.

Most were poor... Poor sometimes means no car. What do you do then?

GJ

Public transportation? But you'll say that such a thing in the US is like an utopian concept and nonexistent.

If they cared to live, they would've found some method to move out regardless they don't have cars.

What do you want them to do, walk? Louisiana shut down the airports and bus lines well before the hurricane struck. Also note that the hurricane struck on August 29. Have you ever lived from paycheck to paycheck, desperately broke at the end of every month, just waiting until the 1st so you had some money? Many Louisianans found themselves in that situation, and could not afford the gas money to evacuate.

On another note, in another argument, I note that even the Louisiana National Guard commanders are bitching that all their equipment is stuck in Iraq.

[Captain Japan]

If the President understood that little adage: "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure" and had not slashed the funding for levee reconstruction, NO would be standing today without incident.

CS, do you have a hydrology study that proves that? Read the SA story that Dimwit posted; it's all you need to know.

[Greji]

I wonder if it would've taken 72 hours to declare a state of emergency in Florida?

GJ

Whose the govenor of Florida? It would have been about 12 minutes for the declaration, to wit: Hey, George this Jeb!

Actually, I don't know why, but they do seem to take an undue length of time with those type of declarations. It will always entail a fly over of the area and a press conference, blah, blah. I suppose that is to give credence to the federal govenment step-in, but it doesn't seem to make a hellva lot of sense in cases like this.

[GuyJean]

'Winning hearts and minds' in Iraq was so successful, the US decides to do it to it's own..

Shoot to Kill, Troops Told
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/shoot-to-kill-troops-told/2005/09/02/1125302714538.html

"Three hundred of the Arkansas National Guard have landed in the city of New Orleans," Blanco said.

"These troops are fresh back from Iraq, well-trained, experienced, battle-tested and under my orders to restore order in the streets," Blanco said.
"They have M-16s and they are locked and loaded.

"These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will," said Blanco.

Interesting how all this 'unrest' might have been avoided with a little pre-disaster planning.. Hhhhhhmmm.. Just like some other conflict someplace else..

GJ

[GuyJean]

I suppose that is to give credence to the federal govenment step-in, but it doesn't seem to make a hellva lot of sense in cases like this.

Yeah, I guess I wouldn't want the Feds swooping whenever they feel like it without surveying the damage.. But this one had 'intervention' written all over it, from the day before it hit..

GJ

[Charles]

Actually, I don't know why, but they do seem to take an undue length of time with those type of declarations. It will always entail a fly over of the area and a press conference, blah, blah. I suppose that is to give credence to the federal govenment step-in, but it doesn't seem to make a hellva lot of sense in cases like this.

Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana on Aug 27, 2 days before the hurricane hit.

The problem is, he then went back to goofing off on vacation, even flying to California for a fundraiser, where this picture was taken on Aug 29, at the very moment the hurricane hit:

[deltaco]

[GuyJean]

Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana on Aug 27, 2 days before the hurricane hit.

Oh, I mis-read your post earlier...

But this also leads me to my original question; Why weren't contingency plans posted on the walls of the non-existent FEMA headquarters on August 27th?

GJ

[GuyJean]

"When The Levee Breaks"

If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break, [X2]
When The Levee Breaks I'll have no place to stay.

Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan, [X2]
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well.

Don't it make you feel bad
When you're tryin' to find your way home,
You don't know which way to go?
If you're goin' down South
They go no work to do,
If you don't know about Chicago.

Cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
Now, cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.

All last night sat on the levee and moaned, [X2]
Thinkin' about me baby and my happy home.
Going, going to Chicago... Going to Chicago... Sorry but I can't take you...
Going down... going down now... going down....

GJ

[AssKissinger]

You ever heard Kristen Hersh's cover of that?

[Charles]

Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana on Aug 27, 2 days before the hurricane hit.

Oh, I mis-read your post earlier...

But this also leads me to my original question]
That would be a good question for the impeachment hearings.

I just found out that Bush demoted FEMA from a cabinet level position to a subdepartment of Homeland Security. Brilliant move.



I heard that FEMA recently did a disaster planning drill for a Category 3 hurricane hitting New Orleans, but HomeSec refused to implement any of their recommendations.

BTW, I should recommend a few news sites. Right now I'm watching streaming video of the local New Orleans TV station via http://www.wwltv.com and also I highly recommend http://www.nola.com which is the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper site. I've also been listening to internet relays of NOLA radio scanner traffic, but that's not yielding much useful info.

[GuyJean]

I just found out that Bush demoted FEMA from a cabinet level position to a subdepartment of Homeland Security. Brilliant move.

Yeah, that was included in my 'chronology of ineptitude' link earlier in the thread..
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007023.php

January 2001: Bush appoints Joe Allbaugh, a crony from Texas, as head of FEMA. Allbaugh has no previous experience in disaster management.

April 2001: Budget Director Mitch Daniels announces the Bush administration's goal of privatizing much of FEMA's work. In May, Allbaugh confirms that FEMA will be downsized: "Many are concerned that federal disaster assistance may have evolved into both an oversized entitlement program...." he said. "Expectations of when the federal government should be involved and the degree of involvement may have ballooned beyond what is an appropriate level."

2001: FEMA designates a major hurricane hitting New Orleans as one of the three "likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country."

December 2002: After less than two years at FEMA, Allbaugh announces he is leaving to start up a consulting firm that advises companies seeking to do business in Iraq. He is succeeded by his deputy, Michael Brown, who, like Allbaugh, has no previous experience in disaster management.

March 2003: FEMA is downgraded from a cabinet level position and folded into the Department of Homeland Security. Its mission is refocused on fighting acts of terrorism.

2003: Under its new organization chart within DHS, FEMA's preparation and planning functions are reassigned to a new Office of Preparedness and Response. FEMA will henceforth focus only on response and recovery.

Summer 2004: FEMA denies Louisiana's pre-disaster mitigation funding requests. Says Jefferson Parish flood zone manager Tom Rodrigue: "You would think we would get maximum consideration....This is what the grant program called for. We were more than qualified for it."

June 2004: The Army Corps of Engineers budget for levee construction in New Orleans is slashed. Jefferson Parish emergency management chiefs Walter Maestri comments: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay."

June 2005: Funding for the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is cut by a record $71.2 million. One of the hardest-hit areas is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which was created after the May 1995 flood to improve drainage in Jefferson, Orleans and St. Tammany parishes.

You ever heard Kristen Hersh's cover of that?

Nope.. But I'd like to..

GJ

[Kuang_Grade]

Come on GJ

Come on, KG. You didn't expect a more rapid response to a disaster?.. After 9/11? Plans should've been hanging on the wall before this happened]1)This turned into a Cat 5 level storm very quickly

They were tracking it for a week prior.. Albert posted pictures of what it did and started this thread on August 26th.. Even a Cat 4 would seem to merit warning..

3) It's not like there are some rather serious laws that prevents the US Gov from rolling into a part of the US and start ordering everyone.

Really?
FEMA Executive Orders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fema

* allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
* allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
* allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
* allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
* allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
* allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
* allows to designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
* allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
* allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned if contaminated beyond reasonable means of decontamination, and establish new locations for populations.
* allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.
* allows them to specify the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.
* allows them to grant authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.
* allows them to assign emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.
* allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation.

I agree that the blame should also be shared by the state, but the Feds are sometimes a contributing factor for making messes of the States. As soon as Katrina hit, it became a Fed issue.. It's that simple.

I wonder if it would've taken 72 hours to declare a state of emergency in Florida?

GJ[/quote]

FEMA knew it was going to be a big storm and activated many of their plans prior to the impact of the storm, however, most of these plans involve calling up supplies and putting rescue teams (which are comprised of various local firefighters/EMTs from cities around the US, and are not actual FEMA employees) on alert for possible activation-ie, get ready to move...and given the equipment they use, they will be driving to the impacted area). One group around here was activated and left on Tuesday afternoon...I think they got set up around Thurs somewhere down in MS. It's a big county, it takes time to move shit around...

FEMA is not some super organization that has 10000's of people under direct command that they throw out of the back of airplane on a moment's notice. Using the military expression of a Tooth to Tail ratio, FEMA is about 99.99% tail and helps co-ordinate the use of borrowed teeth.

While you can quote those power FEMA "has", those are the powers it can have if certain conditions are met (primarily, the US has been under a large scale nuclear attack and/or large scale breakdown of society (ie, no effective state/local governmental control) but not if some small area (in relationship to the size of the US) is having hard times and the state still has a functioning government.

The US was founded by people suspicious of national government in general and military troops in specific. The reason why the District of Columbia exists is because they didn't want one's state's militia to have possible sway over/hold hostage the people running the country. And that thinking still rules many state and federal interactions. Actually, it's often fairly hard for the Feds to influence states directly and most of it is done through the sharing or non-sharing federal funds with the states/organizations (a schools are free to ignore title nine, but then none of their students will be allowed to apply for federal aid...Hey, you don't need to have a seat belt law but you can kiss away those federal highway funds). Who should be more worried about a levee breaking...a local person in New Orleans or some person 1100 miles away in Washington?

As for federalizing the whole area, Yeah, it's a great idea to have a bunch of out of towners with no local knowledge or local legitimacy show up and say "y'all don't know nothing" and here's the way to do it. Yeah, that will really buck up the local folks. It's doing so well in Bagdad that it would be a cake walk in New Orleans. Considering that DHS is thinking about letting airline passengers to start carrying ice picks on board planes again, I wouldn't be too quick to put them in charge of anything.

Personally, it's their damn town and if they didn't give a shit enough to protect in the first place, why should anyone else care? If a tree falls on my house, I'm not going to complain that the government should have cut it down before it fell. I'm going to blame myself (or my neighbor if the tree was on their property). If folks are dumb enough to live in a water locked city that sits mostly below sea level AND then don't bother to force local officials to take the steps necessary to protect the city, then they don't have anyone to blame but themselves.

[cstaylor]

If the President understood that little adage: "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure" and had not slashed the funding for levee reconstruction, NO would be standing today without incident.

CS, do you have a hydrology study that proves that? Read the SA story that Dimwit posted]Did you read the article? Basically proves my point: if they had continued the Clinton Administration's policies instead of slashing the budget to pay for a war of choice in Iraq, those levies and marshlands could have been rebuilt. At the very least, with NG running at 100% with all of their deep-water equipment, they could have held the city instead of turning it into Somalia-lite.

[cstaylor]

If the President understood that little adage: "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure" and had not slashed the funding for levee reconstruction, NO would be standing today without incident.

Wouldn't this be a municipal issue and that the city of New Orleans create an ordinance funded by their own tax to build the levies? Why would it be the president's fault?

No, it's not. What do you think "Federal government" means? When Californians pay more in taxes due to their higher incomes than those in NO, is the money destined to pay for only California's needs? Hell, better to pay for NO than for turning Iraq into Iran-lite.

[GuyJean]

Personally, it's their damn town and if they didn't give a shit enough to protect in the first place, why should anyone else care?

Looks like you'll be the first I give the Masa-fuck-you finger in a national emergency]The Big Disconnect on New Orleans
The official version; then there's the in-the-trenches version[/b]
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html

Hospital evacuations

FEMA I've just learned today that we ... are in the process of completing the evacuations of the hospitals, that those are going very well.

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta: It's gruesome. I guess that is the best word for it. If you think about a hospital, for example, the morgue is in the basement, and the basement is completely flooded. So you can just imagine the scene down there. But when patients die in the hospital, there is no place to put them, so they're in the stairwells. It is one of the most unbelievable situations I've seen as a doctor, certainly as a journalist as well. There is no electricity. There is no water. There's over 200 patients still here remaining. ...We found our way in through a chopper and had to land at a landing strip and then take a boat. And it is exactly ... where the boat was traveling where the snipers opened fire yesterday, halting all the evacuations. ( Watch the video report of corpses stacked in stairwells -- 4:45 )

Dr. Matthew Bellew, Charity Hospital: We still have 200 patients in this hospital, many of them needing care that they just can't get. The conditions are such that it's very dangerous for the patients. Just about all the patients in our services had fevers. Our toilets are overflowing. They are filled with stool and urine. And the smell, if you can imagine, is so bad, you know, many of us had gagging and some people even threw up. It's pretty rough.(Mayor's video: Armed addicts fighting for a fix -- 1:03)

Those stupid sick motherfuckers in the hospital. They should've wheelchaired their worthless asses out of there before the storm hit.

GJ

[GuyJean]

I knew there would be a silver lining..
Halliburton Hired for Storm Cleanup
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685

The Navy has hired Houston-based Halliburton Co. to restore electric power, repair roofs and remove debris at three naval facilities in Mississippi damaged by Hurricane Katrina.

GJ

[kamome]

Personally, it's their damn town and if they didn't give a shit enough to protect in the first place, why should anyone else care?
...
If folks are dumb enough to live in a water locked city that sits mostly below sea level AND then don't bother to force local officials to take the steps necessary to protect the city, then they don't have anyone to blame but themselves.

This is stupid thinking. Frankly, I don't understand the attitude of people who immediately blame the victims of a disaster, crime, etc. In every crowd, there's always the guy who says "it's their fault for letting it happen to them". What is wrong with having a little compassion?

In New Orleans, you have mostly poor and black, or elderly, citizens who could not get out either because of financial or physical reasons. Does that make them dumb? And even if they had the IQ of a retard, why should that be good reason to make them suffer? Is Bush's popularity rating so important that we have to blame the victims just to cover up the Fed's incompetence in planning for and mobilizing for disaster?

GJ is right: in the end, the government has no excuse for failing to have a contingency plan for disasters after 9/11. And if Iraq is draining resources from homeland protection, then this is good evidence that we are overextended abroad and vulnerable to attack at home.

[Hokgwai]

something on a positive note:
http://ny1news.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=53243

The head of the Corps says it could take over a month for all the water to be pumped out of the city. He says engineers will also build a temporary city that will be able to shelter around 50,000 people.

The guardsmen will pass out supplies and try to regain control in the city, where law and order has broken down. The U.S. Navy is also pitching in, sending two hospital ships to treat refugees.

Meanwhile refugees continue to evacuate towards Texas, with San Antonio as the latest destination. The city plans to convert an old Air Force base into a shelter capable of holding 25,000 people.

though the city and federal gov. f#*ked up in not having adequate prevention in the first place, I think the sheer numbers of refugees was simply underestimated....how could anyone know there would be SO many until the actual rescue efforts were underway?

how could they know that even the superdome couldn't house even that many people?

worst of all who would know that the people would turn on themselves like that? taking 9/11 as an example, we usally assume that decent people band together in a time of common crisis...

anyway...things seem to be on a positive road now.

[IkemenTommy]

[guriguri247365]

If I were gonna loot - Id wear a well tailored, respectable looking suit and then hit as many jewellery stores as i could]

I've got a giant sledge hammer and a map with all the ATMs in my area for when the big shaker hits Tokyo...

Dont forget to wear your Ishihara face mask too!!! Its the Japanese devils who will plunder the city after a disaster!!!

[IkemenTommy]

Someone somewhere in the Hollywood hills is already drafting a woeful movie based on this... wouldnt it be mad if they had the movie-mayor say something like that... and then a little obaachan slaps her and pulls a wad of photo after hiroshimas destruction from her handbag and throws them at her... although with digital editing im sure they could make it look ALOT more like hiroshima did...

Not quite

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Citing sensitivity over the real-life disaster unfolding on the U.S. Gulf Coast, broadcaster ABC has pulled its promotions for a drama series about a family coping with a fictional hurricane.

ABC executives decided that hurricane references in promotions for "Invasion," set to premiere on September 21, might be upsetting or offensive to viewers because of the devastation wreaked by Hurricane Katrina, a network spokesman said on Thursday.

[Big Booger]

Personally, it's their damn town and if they didn't give a shit enough to protect in the first place, why should anyone else care?
...
If folks are dumb enough to live in a water locked city that sits mostly below sea level AND then don't bother to force local officials to take the steps necessary to protect the city, then they don't have anyone to blame but themselves.

This is stupid thinking. Frankly, I don't understand the attitude of people who immediately blame the victims of a disaster, crime, etc. In every crowd, there's always the guy who says "it's their fault for letting it happen to them". What is wrong with having a little compassion?

In New Orleans, you have mostly poor and black, or elderly, citizens who could not get out either because of financial or physical reasons. Does that make them dumb? And even if they had the IQ of a retard, why should that be good reason to make them suffer? Is Bush's popularity rating so important that we have to blame the victims just to cover up the Fed's incompetence in planning for and mobilizing for disaster?

GJ is right: in the end, the government has no excuse for failing to have a contingency plan for disasters after 9/11. And if Iraq is draining resources from homeland protection, then this is good evidence that we are overextended abroad and vulnerable to attack at home.

How can you help when you are being shot at by snipers, thugs, ghetto-hood-rats, gangsters and wackos?

How can you look on TV at that convention center and see young, healthy people sitting on their asses and complaining. Not trying to help others, not trying to help clean up the city, help remove debris so that food and supplies can be brought in....

YOu have a mayor in that town cursing and yelling that they are not getting help, when he should be organizing the population to try to help the feds get to the people who need help.

There should be citizenry organized into groups to find food, water, and so on in local stores, shops and markets. I am sure there are Walmart supercenters that could take care of the majority of these people.

http://www.google.com/local?hl=en&hs=od4&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=walmart&near=New+Orleans,+LA&sa=X&oi=localr

A party should be organized to go in and get canned goods, medicine, and other non-perishable products... walmart will be reimbursed by their insurance....

The federal government should be ashamed.... I agree. But you can't lay the blame all on the feds.. they did appropriate 10.2 Billion dollars for the initial need, they sent in FEMA, the national guard, the coast guard..

One party that has not had any blame thrown their way is the PRIVATE sector... Huge corporations that have the resources to save lives are not... Walmart, Microsoft, Greyhound buses, helicopter companies, transport companies, freight companies, medicine and health care companies..... WHy are they not helping as well?