FG's, you've wasted your life in Japan

[Russell]

...so it's not like I attract such responses by walking into people's houses with my shoes on or using soap in the bathtub.

So, you walk into people's houses without your shoes on and then use their bathtub, albeit without soap?!?



Sorry, couldn't resist...

[Yokohammer]

...so it's not like I attract such responses by walking into people's houses with my shoes on or using soap in the bathtub.

So, you walk into people's houses without your shoes on and then use their bathtub, albeit without soap?!?



Sorry, couldn't resist...

[havill]

Your manifest air of superiority on these forums certainly can't handle people just as or better informed than you on certain issues. I like to give reasons for things and critique things instead of asserting with the air of entitlement that you do.

If you say so.

Speaking of being "better informed", weren't you that guy who was spouting that provabe (which I did) nonsense misinfo about Japanese naturalization just a while ago? Here, let me jog your memory:

No dumb as a bag of rocks checking of homes to ensure that the would be citizen has NZ or Australian or Canadian or US or English or whatever 'habits' including what food they eat at home. No spying on the would be citizen by asking locals where they live how 'Australian' or 'New Zealand' or 'Canadian' or 'American' the would be citizen is. Very easy or non existent language tests. Few if any income tests. Don't believe me? The big numbers of former asylum seekers on welfare who become citizens is one of the proofs that can be shown.

* Looks like getting called out for Nihonjinron touched a nerve.

[Coligny]

I was going to say something very similar to Yoko but he said it far, far better. Accept it and deal with it ........ Or just create your own reality and believe in it .....And good luck to you. There's a lot to be said for it ....And it's pretty Japanese too.

This video is so awesum...

[Wage Slave]

I was going to say something very similar to Yoko but he said it far, far better. Accept it and deal with it ........ Or just create your own reality and believe in it .....And good luck to you. There's a lot to be said for it ....And it's pretty Japanese too.

This video is so awesum...

Always had a soft spot for them - Jumped at the chance to post a link.

[havill]

This video is so awesum...

Indeed. RIP, Ricky Wilson. The B-52s are the Bomb. Literally and figuratively.

[Coligny]

Back in my highschool days i discovered them when hanging out with my BBS buddies... who were already in their late 40s...

[wangta]

Your manifest air of superiority on these forums certainly can't handle people just as or better informed than you on certain issues. I like to give reasons for things and critique things instead of asserting with the air of entitlement that you do.

If you say so.

Speaking of being "better informed", weren't you that guy who was spouting that provabe (which I did) nonsense misinfo about Japanese naturalization just a while ago? Here, let me jog your memory:

No dumb as a bag of rocks checking of homes to ensure that the would be citizen has NZ or Australian or Canadian or US or English or whatever 'habits' including what food they eat at home. No spying on the would be citizen by asking locals where they live how 'Australian' or 'New Zealand' or 'Canadian' or 'American' the would be citizen is. Very easy or non existent language tests. Few if any income tests. Don't believe me? The big numbers of former asylum seekers on welfare who become citizens is one of the proofs that can be shown.

Looks like there has been no real rebuttal of the points I made about the fact that the Japanese are not exceptional but see themselves as such because of being able to maintain relative isolation from the rest of the world for so long and to have a post-colonial attitude that is very different from Britain and European countries. As well as other salient points.

As for your regurgitating what I said about naturalisation processes, let me tell you something. I first went to Japan quite some time ago. Even if it wasn't in the Bubble Economy or immediate post Bubble economy it was long ago enough to have witnessed enough of how Japanese attitudes were stringent towards certain things. And yes, the checking up on gaijin who want to become naturalised Japanese may be different now but you are coming from the perspective of relatively recently.

Are you sure you're not a friend of Debito's? You seem to have that same trick of re-assuring yourself you are infallible. As for the twee little dig again about 'nihonjinron', you are obviously somebody who thinks if you assert something again and again it makes it true. Something you have in common with the ruling powers of Japan.

[Coligny]

This video is so awesum...

Indeed. RIP, Ricky Wilson. The B-52s are the Bomb. Literally and figuratively.

[mode trollaxor turbo boost : ON]

Awww, you japanese, you know B52, you like ?
Is good tradition american music, all we american love.
Me thought you japanese all pedophyle love little girl AKB48 dancing miniskirt show their p00np00n.
You know eat with fork ? You must be smart smart japanese then.
You english speak good too ? You learn nova rabbit school ?

[mode trollaxor turbo boost : OFF]

/I'll be there all life, try the veil...

[havill]

Looks like there has been no real rebuttal of the points I made about the fact that the Japanese are not exceptional but see themselves as such because of being able to maintain relative isolation from the rest of the world for so long and to have a post-colonial attitude that is very different from Britain and European countries. As well as other salient points.

Of course I didn't silly. Why would I bother to rebut Nihonjinron? It's Nihonjinron.

P.S. You're welcome for me setting you straight regarding your ignorance of Japanese naturalization. Always happy to educate the ones spreading misinfo. If you have any other questions about things you learned about naturalization from reading the Internets, feel free to AMA.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Havill, In general are people asking you if you know Debito (and do they mean know of or know personally) or telling you you'll never really be Japanese just because they find out you've naturalized or is in the context of discussions like this?

[havill]

[mode trollaxor turbo boost : ON]

Awww, you japanese, you know B52, you like ?
Is good tradition american music, all we american love.
Me thought you japanese all pedophyle love little girl AKB48 dancing miniskirt show their p00np00n.
You know eat with fork ? You must be smart smart japanese then.
You english speak good too ? You learn nova rabbit school ?

[mode trollaxor turbo boost : OFF]

Re J-Pop, I'm showing my age, but I'm more of a Judy and Mary / YUKI fan myself. Wait... what if we... COMBINED them?

Enjoy:

[havill]

Havill, In general are people asking you if you know Debito (and do they mean know of or know personally) or telling you you'll never really be Japanese just because they find out you've naturalized or is in the context of discussions like this?

I'll give Debito credit for one thing-- despite the mixed in prejudices and misinfo (though most of it was right on the mark, even today)-- the one thing he did, before anybody else did, was:

not only naturalize to Japanese (hundreds of thousands preceded him), but naturalize and write about it on the web extensively in English.

Before Debito, that information was almost exclusively in Japanese, Korean, or Chinese. And rarely posted on the web. Especially in a biographical format with details.

Thus, anybody that has ever done a web search for "Japanese naturalization" at one point in their life has likely come across his writings. Both the true and accurate stuff and the not-so-true stuff (like the kimchi-in-the-refrigerator-check urban myth that wangta so confidentially re-spread)

So, I think that when a English first language person in person asks a naturalized person if you know Debito, they're just trying to show that "they're familiar" with the concept of White-English-speaker-becoming-Japanese when they mention him in their next breath after learning that you're naturalized.

[Russell]

And among all that talk of naturalized FG not being considered genuine Japanese, here I am, with my Japanese colleagues expressing their surprise that I did not naturalize yet.

On an unrelated note, got the Missus mad at me last week for telling her that she should be more patient, because she is Japanese. After all, growing Bonsai trees is a national pastime here.

That came up when she expressed her dismay at me planting some trees in our garden at distances far to great (they were only 1 meter apart), because they would not provide enough privacy from our neighbors. I am talking about less than one hour after planting them, when obviously those trees did not have a dense and wide foliage yet...

[legion]

I think the point of all this is what the Japanese define themselves as.

That is their tragedy, lacrimae mundi.

And since we are posting Youtube I went to all the effort of going into the loft, digging out my old Excalibur DVD, taking it to work, ripping a particular scene that nobody has posted to Youtube yet, trimming it down & cranking up the audio, dusting off my Youtube account, and uploading it just for this thread.

Also because I think Nicol Williamson's interpretation of Merlin is by far and away the best in the entire history of the Arthurian myth, the entire film is worth watching just to appreciate his acting at its prime (and a certain young Irish actor making his first outing in a major film).

And to shoehorn this back into something mildly relevant, I don't attach any special significance to myself because I happened to be born in a geographical location associated with the Arthurian myth, such fine actors such as Williamson, or great directors such as Boorman. This is to me the fundamental error of defining yourself according to nationality, you are attaching other people 's stories to yourself, and paradoxically claiming you are somehow special because you think you a part of a group of similar people.

The tangled forests of the mind.

[Samurai_Jerk]

And among all that talk of naturalized FG not being considered genuine Japanese, here I am, with my Japanese colleagues expressing their surprise that I did not naturalize yet.

I've got that reaction a few times from people and I'm single and haven't been here anywhere near as long as you.

[havill]

On an unrelated note, got the Missus mad at me last week for telling her that she should be more patient, because she is Japanese. After all, growing Bonsai trees is a national pastime here.

You should have cited and quoted some Nihonjinron to her, telling her that because of the geography, history, climate, and cultural migration patterns, she's supposed to be more patient. And love bonsai. And not accept foreigners.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Havill, In general are people asking you if you know Debito (and do they mean know of or know personally) or telling you you'll never really be Japanese just because they find out you've naturalized or is in the context of discussions like this?

I'll give Debito credit for one thing-- despite the mixed in prejudices and misinfo (though most of it was right on the mark, even today)-- the one thing he did, before anybody else did, was:

not only naturalize to Japanese (hundreds of thousands preceded him), but naturalize and write about it on the web extensively in English.

Before Debito, that information was almost exclusively in Japanese, Korean, or Chinese. And rarely posted on the web. Especially in a biographical format with details.

Thus, anybody that has ever done a web search for "Japanese naturalization" at one point in their life has likely come across his writings. Both the true and accurate stuff and the not-so-true stuff (like the kimchi-in-the-refrigerator-check urban myth that wangta so confidentially re-spread)

So, I think that when a English first language person in person asks a naturalized person if you know Debito, they're just trying to show that "they're familiar" with the concept of White-English-speaker-becoming-Japanese when they mention him in their next breath after learning that you're naturalized.

OK but I don't think you answered my question. I do think that context is important. If people are telling you you'll never really be Japanese just because you've naturalized and it's come to their attention for whatever reason, they're assholes. If they're making that comment in the context of these types of discussions, it's fair. Though I think it's kind of strange to presume that's your goal or anyone else's for that matter. People naturalize for all kinds of reasons and I doubt that many of them go in thinking or even wanting to completely assimilate.

[Samurai_Jerk]

"you just use it when it's convenient" comments came from white people.

I've got a friend who actually admitted to that. He looks white, his mom is black but very light (think Colin Powell with a slight tan), and his dad is white. One time a friend of mine asked him if he checked white or black on forms where they ask race. He said he always chose white unless it was to his advantage to choose black. You can guess which one he chose for college applications. Affirmative action baby! He also uses it as an excuse to say "nigger." I don't mean "my nigga."

I also had a friend in high school who was white but because her father was from Brazil she was considered a Latina and was eligible for all kinds of scholarships and programs meant for disadvantaged Hispanic kids. Her mother was Italian American, her father was 100% German ethnically, and both her parents were millionaires in their own right. She still took full advantage of all those programs and scholarships.

[havill]

OK but I don't think you answered my question. I do think that context is important. If people are telling you you'll never really be Japanese just because you've naturalized and it's come to their attention for whatever reason, they're assholes. If they're making that comment in the context of these types of discussions, it's fair. Though I think it's kind of strange to presume that's your goal or anyone else's for that matter. People naturalize for all kinds of reasons and I doubt that many of them go in thinking or even wanting to completely assimilate.

Ah, no, sorry for not making that clear. The "do you know Debito?" and "foreigners will never be accepted" microaggressions (doh! did it again!) are not usually connected. Sometimes they are, though: they may use Debito as "proof" that a foreigner can't be accepted.

The "you'll never be accepted as a Japanese" is a English language meme that's been around forever:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=you%27ll+never+be+ ... a+Japanese

Basically, if a ALT/Eikaiwa guy comes over to Japan and starts a blog or vlog, I can play a good bet that one of the blog entries he/she writes will be about this topic. It's a cliche and a defense mechanism: if you resign yourself to believing that you'll never be accepted, then you no longer have to bust your ass trying.

They usually write about it during their first culture-shock period. And usually the catalyst is when the guy/girl tries to have their first "All Japanese Language" conversation with an "International Japanese" and they get spoken to in English back. Because they're not Normal Japanese. They're International Japanese. A sub-category (see #6 and #7). Sometimes the catalyst for this butthurt is as simple as being spoken English to in response to ordering in Japanese at a restaurant. *

Nowadays, the meme has been re-purposed to taunt weeaboos on their hangouts/boards.

Most of the time, foreigners only say this to my face if they are unaware that I am naturalized. Unless they're nyms (civility goes out the window when nobody knows you're a dog) on the web or Asian-American. Asian-Americans, especially Japanese-Americans, have their own Identity Issues they dealt with growing up, so the idea that a white dude that speaks fluent Japanese can be more accepted in JP society than a nisei or 3sei that can't speak Japanese well is enough to cause cognitive dissonance. And a trip to the therapist. Blame their tiger mothers for messing with their heads as a kid.

It's been my personal experience that Japanese-Americans dislike naturalized Japanese (especially ones from their own country who are not of Asian race) more than natural-born raised-in-Japan Japanese or other non-Japanese. Both from how it messes with their Identity Issues due to attempting to balance being dual-ethnicity growing up, and because naturalized Japanese giving up their other nationalities threatens them and pisses them off for Identity politic reasons.

[Coligny]

. This is to me the fundamental error of defining yourself according to nationality, you are attaching other people 's stories to yourself, and paradoxically claiming you are somehow special because you think you a part of a group of similar people.

a bit brutal here... you mean the common history of a nation don't shape its daily life and therefore the ways of its citizens ?

are you denying the existence of society ? not in the ability of people to function together. But in the regional variations and specificities influencing how they function together...

[wagyl]

Looking over posts here, some people take on their nationality as a very important part of their identity, and like to crow about the achievements of their nuclear power industry, locomotive design and construction, and the automobile industry in their country of origin, even though they had no part in achieving that success other than happening to have been born there. For other people (although I don't think I have seen any examples on this board) their faith is what they feel establishes their identity rather than their country. But I think it goes in both directions: a person might feel that their Frenchness is an important part of what they are, but it also depends whether the people around you see you as French and think that your actions represent all Frenchmen, or whether they see you as an individual and that your actions are independent of your nationality, or in the case of the people in the street, whether they see you as anything more granular than Gaikokujin, or indeed Amerikajin. What you feel identifies you, and what other people feel identifies you, can mismatch, and maybe this is the thing that explains Debito's article.

[kurogane]

I also had a friend in high school who was white but because her father was from Brazil she was considered a Latina and was eligible for all kinds of scholarships and programs meant for disadvantaged Hispanic kids. Her mother was Italian American, her father was 100% German ethnically, and both her parents were millionaires in their own right. She still took full advantage of all those programs and scholarships.

Paying your own way because you can probably means you're not good enough to get paid to do it. I don't really get the US positive discrimination system (but I think it an imperfectly executed Good Thing and it has certainly helped The Negro Situation) and especially why Latinos would be eligible but not at least trying for money on offer is a sign of stupidity, immaturity, laziness or AOTA. I fully support means tests for non-competitive awards though.

Are you against positive discriminaiton policies, SJ? Just curious.......

In Canader, where cheese and doughnuts thrive in a wintry land drenched in sweet maple, I get a weird variation of what you and Choko are talking about. Because I am ethnically Just Danish I get what Debito and Hijinx might call microaggressive responses from a rather interesting variety of people, but especially from Standard Issue Mongrel Whites (SIMW) aka Scottish-English-Irish Canadians and also pure blooded East Asians. Some will claim I am Just Canadian, "the same as the rest of us", some claim "You're Not Really Danish" (gee, ya figger ), but the aggravated East Asians will claim that there is no distinction because I am Just White. Keep in mind I consider myself Just Canadian anyways, but the ethnic thing comes up in conversation in NA and that's the only answer I can come up. I can't make much sense of it, but it always makes me laugh at what touchy buggers ethnic majorities or entitled pluralities are when threatened by unexpected difference, and even worse, actual distinction.

Choko,
I think the key with allowing your Indianhood is that it has to be initiated by the white person. Claiming it yourself is a fundamental attack on both White Privilege and their most dearly held belief, Cultural Universalism (Peeplz izz all da samez everywherez).

So which one do you wear when you go drinking?

[Yokohammer]

Just passing through as I remember the incident where Takeo Hiranuma, pissed off at something Renho was saying or doing, publicly commented that "she's irrelevant anyway, because she's not a true Japanese."

Just another one that doesn't involve me personally thrown in for good measure ...

[Coligny]

Looking over posts here, some people take on their nationality as a very important part of their identity, and like to crow about the achievements of their nuclear power industry, locomotive design and construction, and the automobile industry in their country of origin, even though they had no part in achieving that success other than happening to have been born there. For other people (although I don't think I have seen any examples on this board) their faith is what they feel establishes their identity rather than their country. But I think it goes in both directions: a person might feel that their Frenchness is an important part of what they are, but it also depends whether the people around you see you as French and think that your actions represent all Frenchmen, or whether they see you as an individual and that your actions are independent of your nationality, or in the case of the people in the street, whether they see you as anything more granular than Gaikokujin, or indeed Amerikajin. What you feel identifies you, and what other people feel identifies you, can mismatch, and maybe this is the thing that explains Debito's article.

The achievement of a nation do not happen in a vacuum. The whole self made man genius thing is an american myth designed to make anyone in dire situation de-facto guilty of not being able to be successfull by himself by lack of hard work. The fact that it's usually retold by Donald Trump and like minded vulture should be a tale tale of its phoniness.

Did I build the Rafale myself ? no... Did the tax that me and my parents paid served to pay for it and help to program come to life ? yes...
Did I build the post war civilian and military nuclear program ? no
But my grand parents elected the man who pushed it forward. Their taxes paid for its development and then success.
Did we French as a nation build all these... yes. even if not everyone got to screw a bolt on the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier, even the most remote potato farmer in Charentes Maritimes who during their vacations fed the parents of the engineer who worked on it was more or less involved.

I think the umbrella name of the concept is "being a productive member of society"

once again dirty little crab. your narrow mind twist the world into something to make you comfortable and seat you in your obsession.

[GargoyleTS]

So on my naturalization application essay, should i just write "I'm sick of living in America but i still love the culture, and that's why i want to become Japanese?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Paying your own way because you can probably means you're not good enough to get paid to do it. I don't really get the US positive discrimination system (but I think it an imperfectly executed Good Thing and it has certainly helped The Negro Situation) and especially why Latinos would be eligible but not at least trying for money on offer is a sign of stupidity, immaturity, laziness or AOTA. I fully support means tests for non-competitive awards though.

Are you against positive discriminaiton policies, SJ? Just curious.......

I don't hold it against my friend for taking advantage of what was available. I'd do the same. The same way I would take every tax deduction I could if I was ultra rich even though I don't think a lot of those deductions should be available to the Mitt Romneys of the world. I think a system that automatically considers someone disadvantaged because of where her father happened to be born regardless of his socioeconomic status is the problem. The guy was the rich child of rich German emigrants who was born in Brazil but had spent most of his life in the US and Belgium.

I have mixed feelings about affirmative action. I definitely think it was necessary at one time but I'm not sure about now. It also doesn't make sense in implementation. Organizations aren't allowed to set quotas but they do have to consider diversity. I've never been exactly sure what that means in a practical sense. Like you I definitely think that in the case of college scholarships and the like that aren't merit based it should be about means and not minority status but that's a different issue from affirmative action in hiring or college admissions.

Anyway, back to the topic of whether or not one can ever be accepted as Japanese, I think that really depends what you mean by that. Will a Japanese person ever accept my pasty white ass as ethnically/racially Japanese? No, of course not. Could most Japanese people around me come to accept me as an important member of their community who shares their values and is part of their in-group? ..... OK, maybe I'm not the best example but I think you know what I'm getting at.

[Wage Slave]

You know it reminds me of linguists trying to decide if a group of people really speak a dialect of language A, a variety of language A or if they in fact speak language B. In the end you can't do it - If people believe they speak any of the above, then in the end, you just have to believe them.

If someone tells me that they are convinced that they are Japanese, everyone else views them as Japanese and that they feel fully included in Japanese society then actually I have no right to gainsay that. So, I don't.

One other thing. It is not unusual for expats to end up in fairly humble and cheerless circumstances - that's true. It happens for a variety of reasons just as it happens in their home countries and happens to locals. Expats as a group are more vulnerable because they lack family and other support found closer to home.

[kurogane]

If someone tells me that they are convinced that they are Japanese, everyone else views them as Japanese and that they feel fully included in Japanese society then actually I have no right to gainsay that. So, I don't..

That's so admirable I need reassurance: please tell me you inwardly laugh with full, ribald derision at their idiocy. Please.

Also, let's remember that Havill has his own editorial and strategic position and posture just as Fatty Aldwinkle does, and in MYHOMO he is executing it quite admirably here. If he actually thinks he is accepted as Japanese at face value by strangers I have not only read him wrong for some time now, but I will kick his lily white keester out of tough and exasperated lurv for the sin of presumptuous ethnocentric projection.

Havill,
You have claimed that a BBS is not the place to discuss these items in detail. Out of curiosity, where is???? (to my mind a BBS is the perfect venue, hence the question)

[Wage Slave]

That's so admirable I need reassurance: please tell me you inwardly laugh with full, ribald derision at their idiocy. Please.

Well, maybe, but no more than someone who believes in various religions, political ideologies or the achievement of happiness through acquiring Hello Kitty licensed merchandise. And how loud I might laugh inwardly all depends.

To an important extent it is, like happiness, subjective.