Afraid of turning Japanese?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Because confronting someone with a camera when they are not comfortable about it will always result in a win for you, no matter how good or bad the other person's actions are...

From my own experiences in this area, I get the feeling that one of the strongest motives here is jealousy, jealousy that the person leaving has such freedom of action that they can afford to take a few risks, which means that they have room to manoeuvre so that they don't have to take the first measly offer made. When I make an exit, I do my darnedest to make sure it is from a position of strength, so that I can be firm about the terms I am after. To my surprise, that hasn't resulted in any burned bridges either -- perhaps it has resulted in greater respect. There have been times that I got the strong impression that the middle manager I was leaving wished that he could do the same, but financial commitments prevented him from making any move.

I forgot the Japanese term for this but when people leave a company a lot of the "please don't go" or "we need at least three months' notice to do handover" is for the sake of the person leaving not the company. It's a way of making them feel like they were really valued and life couldn't possibly go on without them. It's like when someone insists on getting the whole bill at the bar you have to insist on covering your share three times before letting them pay. More junior employees haven't learned this yet and really take it to heart and feel like they're backstabbing their managers or something. The higher up the totem pole they are the less seriously they take it.

[matsuki]

Because confronting someone with a camera when they are not comfortable about it will always result in a win for you, no matter how good or bad the other person's actions are...

From my own experiences in this area, I get the feeling that one of the strongest motives here is jealousy, jealousy that the person leaving has such freedom of action that they can afford to take a few risks, which means that they have room to manoeuvre so that they don't have to take the first measly offer made. When I make an exit, I do my darnedest to make sure it is from a position of strength, so that I can be firm about the terms I am after. To my surprise, that hasn't resulted in any burned bridges either -- perhaps it has resulted in greater respect. There have been times that I got the strong impression that the middle manager I was leaving wished that he could do the same, but financial commitments prevented him from making any move.

I forgot the Japanese term for this but when people leave a company a lot of the "please don't go" or "we need at least three months' notice to do handover" is for the sake of the person leaving not the company. It's a way of making them feel like they were really valued and life couldn't possibly go on without them. It's like when someone insists on getting the whole bill at the bar you have to insist on covering your share three times before letting them pay. More junior employees haven't learned this yet and really take it to heart and feel like they're backstabbing their managers or something. The higher up the totem pole they are the less seriously they take it.

While I agree that totally happens, I've also known a few people who attempted to put in their notice and were told by their superiors they wouldn't accept it or allow them to quit for a few more months. Essentially, "they refused to let me quit."

[Samurai_Jerk]

Because confronting someone with a camera when they are not comfortable about it will always result in a win for you, no matter how good or bad the other person's actions are...

From my own experiences in this area, I get the feeling that one of the strongest motives here is jealousy, jealousy that the person leaving has such freedom of action that they can afford to take a few risks, which means that they have room to manoeuvre so that they don't have to take the first measly offer made. When I make an exit, I do my darnedest to make sure it is from a position of strength, so that I can be firm about the terms I am after. To my surprise, that hasn't resulted in any burned bridges either -- perhaps it has resulted in greater respect. There have been times that I got the strong impression that the middle manager I was leaving wished that he could do the same, but financial commitments prevented him from making any move.

I forgot the Japanese term for this but when people leave a company a lot of the "please don't go" or "we need at least three months' notice to do handover" is for the sake of the person leaving not the company. It's a way of making them feel like they were really valued and life couldn't possibly go on without them. It's like when someone insists on getting the whole bill at the bar you have to insist on covering your share three times before letting them pay. More junior employees haven't learned this yet and really take it to heart and feel like they're backstabbing their managers or something. The higher up the totem pole they are the less seriously they take it.

While I agree that totally happens, I've also known a few people who attempted to put in their notice and were told by their superiors they wouldn't accept it or allow them to quit for a few more months. Essentially, "they refused to let me quit."

How is that any different from what I said?

[Salty]

That is exactly what happened to me when I quit my first company here. My resignation letter was back on my desk, and the bucho was unavailable for several months. Finally they agreed, but only if I would pass on some knowledge and skills I had to a new team. That new team turned out to be a class of about 20 from outside of the firm, who paid for attendance in a four day hands on programming class in IBM DB/DC CICS systems programming that I had to design based upon my experience.

[matsuki]

Because confronting someone with a camera when they are not comfortable about it will always result in a win for you, no matter how good or bad the other person's actions are...

From my own experiences in this area, I get the feeling that one of the strongest motives here is jealousy, jealousy that the person leaving has such freedom of action that they can afford to take a few risks, which means that they have room to manoeuvre so that they don't have to take the first measly offer made. When I make an exit, I do my darnedest to make sure it is from a position of strength, so that I can be firm about the terms I am after. To my surprise, that hasn't resulted in any burned bridges either -- perhaps it has resulted in greater respect. There have been times that I got the strong impression that the middle manager I was leaving wished that he could do the same, but financial commitments prevented him from making any move.

I forgot the Japanese term for this but when people leave a company a lot of the "please don't go" or "we need at least three months' notice to do handover" is for the sake of the person leaving not the company. It's a way of making them feel like they were really valued and life couldn't possibly go on without them. It's like when someone insists on getting the whole bill at the bar you have to insist on covering your share three times before letting them pay. More junior employees haven't learned this yet and really take it to heart and feel like they're backstabbing their managers or something. The higher up the totem pole they are the less seriously they take it.

While I agree that totally happens, I've also known a few people who attempted to put in their notice and were told by their superiors they wouldn't accept it or allow them to quit for a few more months. Essentially, "they refused to let me quit."

How is that any different from what I said?

Not an ego massage situation, more like what salty described where they refused to accept them quiting until a replacement was found and they trained them

Sent from my SO-03F using Tapatalk

[Samurai_Jerk]

Because confronting someone with a camera when they are not comfortable about it will always result in a win for you, no matter how good or bad the other person's actions are...

From my own experiences in this area, I get the feeling that one of the strongest motives here is jealousy, jealousy that the person leaving has such freedom of action that they can afford to take a few risks, which means that they have room to manoeuvre so that they don't have to take the first measly offer made. When I make an exit, I do my darnedest to make sure it is from a position of strength, so that I can be firm about the terms I am after. To my surprise, that hasn't resulted in any burned bridges either -- perhaps it has resulted in greater respect. There have been times that I got the strong impression that the middle manager I was leaving wished that he could do the same, but financial commitments prevented him from making any move.

I forgot the Japanese term for this but when people leave a company a lot of the "please don't go" or "we need at least three months' notice to do handover" is for the sake of the person leaving not the company. It's a way of making them feel like they were really valued and life couldn't possibly go on without them. It's like when someone insists on getting the whole bill at the bar you have to insist on covering your share three times before letting them pay. More junior employees haven't learned this yet and really take it to heart and feel like they're backstabbing their managers or something. The higher up the totem pole they are the less seriously they take it.

While I agree that totally happens, I've also known a few people who attempted to put in their notice and were told by their superiors they wouldn't accept it or allow them to quit for a few more months. Essentially, "they refused to let me quit."

How is that any different from what I said?

Not an ego massage situation, more like what salty described where they refused to accept them quiting until a replacement was found and they trained them

Sent from my SO-03F using Tapatalk

You'll never know one way or the other. A lot of people want to believe the hype. Most of them aren't as valuable as they think.

[kurogane]

Yes on that about people's opinions of themselves, but it's perfectly plausible from a management POV as well: laziness, stubborness, and a power play, if not outright peevish obstinacy. I once needed fairly serious surgery on my hand and was told it would have to wait until it was more convenient for me to take leave, even though I explained getting a surgery opening often took 8 months or more so I needed to take the one that was offered. I never took it as a compliment, just a final ploy to show me who was boss and what and where my place really was. They really played their hand hard; it was the only time I ever experienced open racial hostility outside bars or the shitty part of Ueno. Quitting outright instead caused some bad blood but we all pretended to get over it like pseudo-adults.

BTW, I could TOATS!!!!!!! see how what Matuski is talking about could feed that whole weird spiral of abuse of power, sacrifice and forebearance:

I hate this job and they treat me like shit, but they need ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOLzzzzzzzzz BFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Samurai_Jerk]

Yes on that about people's opinions of themselves, but it's perfectly plausible from a management POV as well: laziness, stubborness, and a power play, if not outright peevish obstinacy. I once needed fairly serious surgery on my hand and was told it would have to wait until it was more convenient for me to take leave, even though I explained getting a surgery opening often took 8 months or more so I needed to take the one that was offered. I never took it as a compliment, just a final ploy to show me who was boss and what and where my place really was. They really played their hand hard; it was the only time I ever experienced open racial hostility outside bars or the shitty part of Ueno. Quitting outright instead caused some bad blood but we all pretended to get over it like pseudo-adults.

BTW, I could TOATS!!!!!!! see how what Matuski is talking about could feed that whole weird spiral of abuse of power, sacrifice and forebearance:

I hate this job and they treat me like shit, but they need ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOLzzzzzzzzz BFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know it happens but what he wrote as a response was basically just repeating what I said without qualification.

When I was back in The States a friend of the family was on his deathbed with cancer and his son who was working for one of the Big 4 audit firms on the other side of the country asked for time off to see his father one last time. Those assholes actually said no. It took a call from a lawyer who happens to be the father of a very well known philanthropist and founder of a massive software company in the Seattle area for them to change their mind.

[Salty]

In such situations you don`t ask - you simply do, and notify them later.

[Samurai_Jerk]

In such situations you don`t ask - you simply do, and notify them later.

First job, fresh out of college. I don't know if it was so much asking as informing them not expecting any problem and they said sorry can't let you go. He would have quit if the family didn't happen to know that lawyer who took it upon himself to step in.

[kurogane]

SJ,
Ouch. As we agreed yesterday, the NA work environment is not exactly Sesame Street either, esp. for somebody with a fancy job like that. I still think most of those decisions and refusals are more about monkeyfied ranking wars than for any rational or logistical reason. My experience with corporations is limited, but I see a little Adolf Eichmann in a lot of people I have met that work in bigger organisations, universities included. I might never have made it anywhere anyways but the same sort of half-poisoned work environment at universities put me off high ambition a while back. My only dream is to commit the perfect crime, but that's more because it would be a cool caper too.

[Samurai_Jerk]

SJ,
Ouch. As we agreed yesterday, the NA work environment is not exactly Sesame Street either, esp. for somebody with a fancy job like that. I still think most of those decisions and refusals are more about monkeyfied ranking wars than for any rational or logistical reason. My experience with corporations is limited, but I see a little Adolf Eichmann in a lot of people I have met that work in bigger organisations, universities included. I might never have made it anywhere anyways but the same sort of half-poisoned work environment at universities put me off high ambition a while back. My only dream is to commit the perfect crime, but that's more because it would be a cool caper too.

Sad that it took pressure from the family of one of the world's richest men going to bat for the dean (RIP) of a graduate school at the best West Coast university north of Berkeley to get a result. Someone from a lesser family without those kinds of connections would have had to quit their job.

[kurogane]

Yes, very much that too. Which plays into the simian ranking aspect, the bigger monkey having called them out on it (no offence to the famous father himself, of course, but he was himself always a fairly high powered Dood in Seattle)...............which I find sad as well, though I think highly of what he did. I wonder if corporate work breeds that, or simply selects for it. Most "good" university administrators I met were obvious power junkies. Which I believe is what they call ambitious. Which is also sad.

[matsuki]

Yes on that about people's opinions of themselves, but it's perfectly plausible from a management POV as well: laziness, stubborness, and a power play, if not outright peevish obstinacy. I once needed fairly serious surgery on my hand and was told it would have to wait until it was more convenient for me to take leave, even though I explained getting a surgery opening often took 8 months or more so I needed to take the one that was offered. I never took it as a compliment, just a final ploy to show me who was boss and what and where my place really was. They really played their hand hard; it was the only time I ever experienced open racial hostility outside bars or the shitty part of Ueno. Quitting outright instead caused some bad blood but we all pretended to get over it like pseudo-adults.

BTW, I could TOATS!!!!!!! see how what Matuski is talking about could feed that whole weird spiral of abuse of power, sacrifice and forebearance:

I hate this job and they treat me like shit, but they need ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOLzzzzzzzzz BFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know it happens but what he wrote as a response was basically just repeating what I said without qualification.

When I was back in The States a friend of the family was on his deathbed with cancer and his son who was working for one of the Big 4 audit firms on the other side of the country asked for time off to see his father one last time. Those assholes actually said no. It took a call from a lawyer who happens to be the father of a very well known philanthropist and founder of a massive software company in the Seattle area for them to change their mind.

There is the ego massage pressuring someone to stay longer like you described, which I do think is common...and there is flat out refusing to let someone quit. I know in at least one case the superior threatened to withhold pay...or rather, stopped it from being deposited and called it atsukarikin that needed to be collected in person at HQ....on thn otherside of the country.

Sent from my SO-03F using Tapatalk

[yanpa]

Yes, very much that too. Which plays into the simian ranking aspect, the bigger monkey having called them out on it (no offence to the famous father himself, of course, but he was himself always a fairly high powered Dood in Seattle)...............which I find sad as well, though I think highly of what he did. I wonder if corporate work breeds that, or simply selects for it.

Both, I guess. The moar bigger the organisation, the more dick-swinging which needs to take place (poopoo slinging and butt-sniffing may also be involved) before the pecking order reaches temporary equilibrium. Which is why I avoid working for Large Companies, though the one time I did, I turned down a decent bonus and some probably worthless stock options to escape. To be fair, the boss did insist I leave on the spot (finance industry dontcha know) but the senior minions persuaded me to stay on a few more days while plying me with empty promises.

[kurogane]

Yes, the old downward reinforcing spiral. Nice analysis. I found large big named universities bad enough (in both UK and Japan) but if you publish you're bulletproof; it doesn't sound like that holds true for corporations. Game of Drones? Yeck.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Yes, the old downward reinforcing spiral. Nice analysis. I found large big named universities bad enough (in both UK and Japan) but if you publish you're bulletproof; it doesn't sound like that holds true for corporations. Game of Drones? Yeck.

In the corporate world politics are often more important than performance. I don't think smaller companies are any better than big ones and sometimes they can be a lot worse because they lack any kind of checks and balances.

[Yokohammer]

Yes, the old downward reinforcing spiral. Nice analysis. I found large big named universities bad enough (in both UK and Japan) but if you publish you're bulletproof; it doesn't sound like that holds true for corporations. Game of Drones? Yeck.

In the corporate world politics are often more important than performance. I don't think smaller companies are any better than big ones and sometimes they can be a lot worse because they lack any kind of checks and balances.

Politics more important than performance: a big yup to that.

However, big companies may have checks and balances, but half the time those checks and balances don't function across the maddeningly convoluted large-corporation communications/protocol network. Sometimes it sorta works, but it seems like a miracle when it does. The problem in some small companies is that they feel they have to emulate the big boys.

I went independent way back in '85 precisely because of the difficulty of getting anything done through all the politics and jockeying for position. And meetings! I swear, most meetings were just a way for guys to get away from their desks for a while and spend some time drinking tea/coffee and shooting the shit in a nice environment away from kacho or bucho surveillance, or whatever. From my experience dealing with numerous large corporations it looks as though not much has changed. At least I'm not trapped in the machine and can simply back out and wait for them to figure out what they want to do. Get a helluva lot more done that way.

Never again.

[J.A.F.O]

From my experience dealing with numerous large corporations it looks as though not much has changed. At least I'm not trapped in the machine and can simply back out and wait for them to figure out what they want to do. Get a helluva lot more done that way.

Never again.

This is the stuff that spooks me about entering the japanese job market... I have a brother in law, well educated but can't seem to get out of the machine. He's gonna die a single and possibly overworked man unless he makes some kinda change. One of the reasons I don't assimilate... I guess unlike most of my gaijin counterparts. I really couldn't give a fuck about the culture.

[Coligny]

I guess unlike most of my gaijin counterparts. I really couldn't give a fuck about the culture.

You called Bruv ?

[Salty]

I guess unlike most of my gaijin counterparts. I really couldn't give a fuck about the culture.

You called Bruv ?

Maybe therein is the difference - people who are here simply for the job, or whatever, and don`t really care for the culture. No need to assimilate at all, except to the limited extent that helps with short term goal achievement.

[Coligny]

¿que?

[Salty]

¿que?

re JAFO`s comment, of course....

[wagyl]

¿que?

I think you lost him at

achievement.

if not at

job

[Salty]

¿que?

I think you lost him at

achievement.

if not at

job

Or maybe it was at Maybe?

[Coligny]

This is the stuff that spooks me about entering the japanese job market...

Not sure I'm the most confuseded around...

[J.A.F.O]

This is the stuff that spooks me about entering the japanese job market...

Not sure I'm the most confuseded around...

Yep I called, because if this place goes up in smoke I need someone to eat popcorn with.

[Coligny]

You think canned corm can be turned back to popcrorm ?

If not I'll stock on the diy stuff in aluminum pans.

[J.A.F.O]

Maybe therein is the difference - people who are here simply for the job, or whatever, and don`t really care for the culture. No need to assimilate at all, except to the limited extent that helps with short term goal achievement.

I have a sugar momma but yea I get the point, kinda to add on to what you're saying. The whole "charisma man" shit dudes go through when they get here is odd to me. I was an athlete and a good looking lad before I came to this place then I come here and it's like I'm way too "niku shoku" I intimidate the females.

Of course it's not like I'm trying chase any of them either so I let my beard grow out and just lift weights and drink and fight... maybe I should open a Dojo in mainland ... hmmmm

[Coligny]

image.jpg