FG's, you've wasted your life in Japan

[Coligny]

Havill,
You have claimed that a BBS is not the place to discuss these items in detail. Out of curiosity, where is???? (to my mind a BBS is the perfect venue, hence the question)

Hamam... While scrubbing each others harbles...

[wagyl]

...I think the umbrella name of the concept is "being a productive member of society"

once again dirty little crab. your narrow mind twist the world into something to make you comfortable and seat you in your obsession.

You were doing so well until you got angry in the last line.

Maybe my mind is narrow if it cannot understand what is so sacred about the nation state as a group. Surely you know people who say "I am from Toyohashi, do not put me in the same group as people from Nagoya." Maybe you are one of them. But that is an identity not as nationality, but as resident of a particular town. Is that more or less sacred than the identity as a nationality? Stretch my mind for me. How about your parent's* contributions to the European Union. Is that contribution to society discounted because it is not a nation state? I can't see a justification for the nation level grouping to be important, so I hope you will help me by explaining it to me.

* (I don't watch over you every minute of the day, but I can't quite dislodge the feeling that you contribute more to Vietnamese society than you do to French, so please excuse me borrowing the idea that I can bring your parents into this.)

[matsuki]

I think the point of all this is what the Japanese define themselves as.

Which, as you pointed out, is full of myths and bullshit...racially speaking that is. Just like I had to deal with assholes who were offended my by mixed background, I personally know of at least 3 Japanese men who are always getting the 「外人みたい」 treatment from other Japanese and hate it. (Hilarious in one case because he is the first to yell 「あの外人が。。。」 at FG being assholes) One of my lemurs is always getting 「やっぱりハーフですね」from people, even more so if I'm with her. Don't get me started on how most Japanese (though they vehemently claim otherwise) can't tell the difference between Japanese and many other asian *races* based soley on look unless it's really obvious. Pop their bubble on a case by case basis but be aware that racial/ethnic prejudices and such aren't based on logic so don't expect to convert assholes into open-minded reasonable people by sticking it to em and working them up emotionally.

Just passing through as I remember the incident where Takeo Hiranuma, pissed off at something Renho was saying or doing, publicly commented that "she's irrelevant anyway, because she's not a true Japanese."

Just another one that doesn't involve me personally thrown in for good measure ...

How politicians like that stay in power is of more concern than school kids running by me daily, yelling "おっまいっが！！！"

On 1 February 2006, he invoked controversy by arguing against the proposed imperial reform bill on the grounds that Princess Aiko could potentially marry and have children with a "blue-eyed foreigner" in the future.

During a speech on 17 January 2009 in the city of Okayama, Hiranuma criticized diet member Renhou Murata's support of budget cuts to Japan's supercomputer program by insinuating that she may not have Japan's best interests at heart because she is not a Japanese national by birth.

[Coligny]

Don't get me started on how most Japanese (though they vehemently claim otherwise) can't tell the difference between Japanese and many other asian *races* based soley on look unless it's really obvious. Pop their bubble on a case by case basis but be aware that racial/ethnic prejudices and such aren't based on logic so don't expect to convert assholes into open-minded reasonable people by sticking it to em and working them up emotionally.

eh eh eh... I married a chameleon... any asian country we go to the locals speaks to her in the local language... never cease to piss her off...

[Yokohammer]

On 1 February 2006, he invoked controversy by arguing against the proposed imperial reform bill on the grounds that Princess Aiko could potentially marry and have children with a "blue-eyed foreigner" in the future.

During a speech on 17 January 2009 in the city of Okayama, Hiranuma criticized diet member Renhou Murata's support of budget cuts to Japan's supercomputer program by insinuating that she may not have Japan's best interests at heart because she is not a Japanese national by birth.

That's probably it.
The Google-fu is growing strong within you, Grasshopper.

[wagyl]

On 1 February 2006, he invoked controversy by arguing against the proposed imperial reform bill on the grounds that Princess Aiko could potentially marry and have children with a "blue-eyed foreigner" in the future.

During a speech on 17 January 2009 in the city of Okayama, Hiranuma criticized diet member Renhou Murata's support of budget cuts to Japan's supercomputer program by insinuating that she may not have Japan's best interests at heart because she is not a Japanese national by birth.

That's probably it.
The Google-fu is growing strong within you, Grasshopper.

'bout bloody time

[wangta]

I think the point of all this is what the Japanese define themselves as.

Which, as you pointed out, is full of myths and bullshit...racially speaking that is. Just like I had to deal with assholes who were offended my by mixed background, I personally know of at least 3 Japanese men who are always getting the 「外人みたい」 treatment from other Japanese and hate it. (Hilarious in one case because he is the first to yell 「あの外人が。。。」 at FG being assholes) One of my lemurs is always getting 「やっぱりハーフですね」from people, even more so if I'm with her. Don't get me started on how most Japanese (though they vehemently claim otherwise) can't tell the difference between Japanese and many other asian *races* based soley on look unless it's really obvious. Pop their bubble on a case by case basis but be aware that racial/ethnic prejudices and such aren't based on logic so don't expect to convert assholes into open-minded reasonable people by sticking it to em and working them up emotionally.

Just passing through as I remember the incident where Takeo Hiranuma, pissed off at something Renho was saying or doing, publicly commented that "she's irrelevant anyway, because she's not a true Japanese."

Just another one that doesn't involve me personally thrown in for good measure ...

How politicians like that stay in power is of more concern than school kids running by me daily, yelling "おっまいっが！！！"

On 1 February 2006, he invoked controversy by arguing against the proposed imperial reform bill on the grounds that Princess Aiko could potentially marry and have children with a "blue-eyed foreigner" in the future.

During a speech on 17 January 2009 in the city of Okayama, Hiranuma criticized diet member Renhou Murata's support of budget cuts to Japan's supercomputer program by insinuating that she may not have Japan's best interests at heart because she is not a Japanese national by birth.

Good post as usual.

And thanks for understanding that pointing out what Japanese society's norms impose and what isolationist historical circumstances created is different from subscribing to Japanese views on their own culture, society and history and how this must be accepted and preserved at all costs.

Had the Japanese been colonised in the real sense (forced to give up or disavow their language, culture, etc) like numerous peoples in history both long ago and recent, or forced to become part of an artificially constructed country in a continent such as Europe then this comfort zone would not exist for them.

I've had some really interesting discussions with decent Japanese people for years when I have worked there. But not one of the intelligent company people I taught (including at one of the best Japanese companies, a huge name and with students I found fairly open minded) could get their heads around the concept that other people have centuries of their own traditions and distinctive cultural markers. They confused the reality of different peoples losing or changing their culture with having none or very little of it in the first place.

They are not the only ones of course. There are many whites and Asians who relegate Africans to a lowly 'tribal only' status complete with spear chucking, failing to understand the diversity of the different African peoples and their histories. They've never heard of the Abyssinians or the pyramids and similar structures in Zimbabwe or the ancient African kingdoms. The same ignorance applies to the quaintly named 'New World' of ancient civilisations but at least there is some knowledge of the Aztecs, Toltecs and Mayans.

[matsuki]

I've had some really interesting discussions with decent Japanese people for years when I have worked there. But not one of the intelligent company people I taught (including at one of the best Japanese companies, a huge name and with students I found fairly open minded) could get their heads around the concept that other people have centuries of their own traditions and distinctive cultural markers. They confused the reality of different peoples losing or changing their culture with having none or very little of it in the first place.

They are not the only ones of course.

I think SOP when confronted with the whole "We Japanese have a unique culture blah blah blah" is asking them to define Japanese culture and what's so unique about it. While the language wall that isolates these types from the rest of the world still exists, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Japanese-language articles online that show how most of the examples they will undoubtedly come up with are in fact re appropriated "comfort borrowed" from other cultures. As you mentioned though, they are not unique in this assery and as Wags loves pointing out, we are all ignorant to a certain extent. (so the key here is to recognize not knowing is ignorance, not knowing and making false claims is assery...but I think S. Korea still owns everyone in that regard)

On 1 February 2006, he invoked controversy by arguing against the proposed imperial reform bill on the grounds that Princess Aiko could potentially marry and have children with a "blue-eyed foreigner" in the future.

During a speech on 17 January 2009 in the city of Okayama, Hiranuma criticized diet member Renhou Murata's support of budget cuts to Japan's supercomputer program by insinuating that she may not have Japan's best interests at heart because she is not a Japanese national by birth.

That's probably it.
The Google-fu is growing strong within you, Grasshopper.

'bout bloody time

Hahahahaha, sometimes I want some personal input that google results just cannot not provide.

[havill]

Havill,
You have claimed that a BBS is not the place to discuss these items in detail. Out of curiosity, where is???? (to my mind a BBS is the perfect venue, hence the question)

It's not a privacy / etc issue. It's a technical / control issue. Writing anything rather lengthy or complicated using ancient forum software sucks.

For me, I'd rather use editing / publishing software I'm familiar with and can control the format, SEO, moderation etc better if I want to write something that lasts and people will come back to.

[CrankyBastard]

Four pages already!
All about something said by the "Johnny-come-lately", Debito Arudou who quit and left.
If you're in for the long haul, just get on with it.

[kurogane]

Yeas, yes, fair enough. But it's a good discussion.

Besides, if the FW would quit we wouldn't have to discuss it. The problem is he's like the negative energy Energizer Bunny.


Havill,

Got it. thanks.

[Mike Oxlong]

I've had some really interesting discussions with decent Japanese people for years when I have worked there. But not one of the intelligent company people I taught (including at one of the best Japanese companies, a huge name and with students I found fairly open minded) could get their heads around the concept that other people have centuries of their own traditions and distinctive cultural markers. They confused the reality of different peoples losing or changing their culture with having none or very little of it in the first place.

They are not the only ones of course.

I think SOP when confronted with the whole "We Japanese have a unique culture blah blah blah" is asking them to define Japanese culture and what's so unique about it. While the language wall that isolates these types from the rest of the world still exists, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Japanese-language articles online that show how most of the examples they will undoubtedly come up with are in fact re appropriated "comfort borrowed" from other cultures. As you mentioned though, they are not unique in this assery and as Wags loves pointing out, we are all ignorant to a certain extent. (so the key here is to recognize not knowing is ignorance, not knowing and making false claims is assery...but I think S. Korea still owns everyone in that regard)

Kinda like a pepsi in that respect. Quebec is a unique culture and blah blah blah. Totally forgetting there has to be an other to be unique, just like everyone else.

[kurogane]

Tee Hee. Mikey said Pepsi. Mikey knows Pepsi is bad word. We likes it, hey Mikey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a go at the Unique thing a couple of weeks ago with somebody that looked like they might rise to the occasion. They failed miserably. A bit like Wangta's corporate students. Something about Japan compared to Gaikoku makes Japan unique. He had claimed to have an interest in geography. I ordered more ice cold Budweiser and soon got over it.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Japanese culture is unique. So is every other culture.

[Mike Oxlong]

Tee Hee. Mikey said Pepsi. Mikey knows Pepsi is bad word. We likes it, hey Mikey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a go at the Unique thing a couple of weeks ago with somebody that looked like they might rise to the occasion. They failed miserably. A bit like Wangta's corporate students. Something about Japan compared to Gaikoku makes Japan unique. He had claimed to have an interest in geography. I ordered more ice cold Budweiser and soon got over it.

Yeah, that and pepper seemed to have a bit more offensive tone back in the day, when nowadays il est un vrai pepsi is worn almost as a badge of honour.

[legion]

. This is to me the fundamental error of defining yourself according to nationality, you are attaching other people 's stories to yourself, and paradoxically claiming you are somehow special because you think you a part of a group of similar people.

a bit brutal here... you mean the common history of a nation don't shape its daily life and therefore the ways of its citizens ?

are you denying the existence of society ? not in the ability of people to function together. But in the regional variations and specificities influencing how they function together...

also I like to throw abstract shit into the mix like "hey you were just born here, I decided to come and stay"

[legion]

Looking over posts here, some people take on their nationality as a very important part of their identity, and like to crow about the achievements of their nuclear power industry, locomotive design and construction, and the automobile industry in their country of origin, even though they had no part in achieving that success other than happening to have been born there. For other people (although I don't think I have seen any examples on this board) their faith is what they feel establishes their identity rather than their country. But I think it goes in both directions: a person might feel that their Frenchness is an important part of what they are, but it also depends whether the people around you see you as French and think that your actions represent all Frenchmen, or whether they see you as an individual and that your actions are independent of your nationality, or in the case of the people in the street, whether they see you as anything more granular than Gaikokujin, or indeed Amerikajin. What you feel identifies you, and what other people feel identifies you, can mismatch, and maybe this is the thing that explains Debito's article.

I think you might have nailed it

[wangta]

Even more ridiculous than Debito's recent rehashing of stereotypes of stereotypes of gaijin are the posters on his website who meekly accept being trashed like that. He's out of line with his responses to a few of them.

I don't mind reading a lot of the comments on his blog as many of those who post there seem to be far more rational than he is but in this case they're letting him screech on them and can them for being people who clearly are suited to living in Japan and have made significant commitments to do so.

I noted that Debito was happy to appear in one of the most idiotic and embarrassing J vlogger's videos albeit a few years back. He was interviewed by an attention seeking misfit whose name I won't mention because he doesn't need more obvious net references. That vlogger is puerile, tries to con his nerdy audience back in the US out of money, is a real gobshite to employers in Japan, slagging them off on youtube and twitter and is obsessed with J girls and how he can't get hold of one for more than a week or so. It's his life but maybe Debito needs to direct his recent megabitch outburst against that kind of gaijin. Even if what he wrote is so yesterday and so regurgitated.

[wuchan]

I'm drunk.

can someone please explain the faux nihonjin dude's "i'm a jap" position v.s. the "we can never be jap" position? Yea I'm drunk but I'm a JA member, Why does this guy's shit make no sense?

[kurogane]

My impression is that Havill is baiting you, but being coy enough about it all to leave himself future options.

But here is my short, sharp shocked version:

if I remember you claimed that no white could ever become Japanese. I assume you mean culturally and socially as well as legally. He is disputing that by sticking to the inescapable fact that he is legally Japanese but also coyly suggesting he is more Japanese than just that. The nice part of what he is doing is that it highlights the grey zones that do exist between those 2 stark black and whites; it adds nuance and detail to a badly drawn broad brush large scale landscape that is mostly generalisation, prejudice and urban myth.

It is my impression that he does think he is somewhat Japanese in ways and senses other than a legal sense, though that may be an editorial pose; many of us think that is naive and that the true litmus test is whether one can be accepted at face value for what one thinks one is by a wide range of the ascriptive members of that group. This is where all but Havill seem to agree that is not possible.

My diagnosis is that he is rather clever, enjoyably playful, and terminally American in his presumption of unconditional membership in his adopted group, assuming he is not just f'in around. Cultural Universalism dies a hard, slow death in many, and if I am right it ain't dead yet in him. Most of my Cdn and American long termer friends in Japan suffer from various degrees of this Immigrant Country delusion, so he's hardly alone. If nothing else he's very obviously a great guy and he works hard to be informative, so I say You Go Guhlfrend.

Hope that helped. Or not

[havill]

Even more ridiculous than Debito's recent rehashing of stereotypes of stereotypes of gaijin are the posters on his website who meekly accept being trashed like that. He's out of line with his responses to a few of them.

I don't mind reading a lot of the comments on his blog as many of those who post there seem to be far more rational than he is but in this case they're letting him screech on them and can them for being people who clearly are suited to living in Japan and have made significant commitments to do so.

I noted that Debito was happy to appear in one of the most idiotic and embarrassing J vlogger's videos albeit a few years back. He was interviewed by an attention seeking misfit whose name I won't mention because he doesn't need more obvious net references. That vlogger is puerile, tries to con his nerdy audience back in the US out of money, is a real gobshite to employers in Japan, slagging them off on youtube and twitter and is obsessed with J girls and how he can't get hold of one for more than a week or so. It's his life but maybe Debito needs to direct his recent megabitch outburst against that kind of gaijin. Even if what he wrote is so yesterday and so regurgitated.

TLDR: many Debito.org readers are Japan flameouts. And I have proof.

Debito.org is like those support groups where everybody talks about how there ex sucks and that their ex did them a favor by rejecting them.

Fun fact: many of his followers are ex-English teachers (either J-uni level or eikaiwa level). And many of them returned home and got pretty mediocre jobs.

How do I know that? Because one of its commenters tried to dox me. Except it backfired.

You see, he posted my LinkedIn account URL on Debito.org (and Debito approved the comment) attempting to scare me. The problem with doing that, you see, is that if you have a LinkedIn account and you choose to stay logged in, LinkedIn notified the profile holder regarding who looked at the profile and where they came from. You get even more details if you have a premium account like me:

https://help.linkedin.com/app/answers/d ... 4508/~/who’s-viewed-your-profile---basic-and-premium-features

So yeah, not only do I inadvertently know the names of some of debito.org's nyms, but I also know how and when they failed in Japan. I won't name them, but I will keep them in my little black book just in case I get a threat from them in the future. And the only people I'll reveal the names to is law enforcement.

So, uh, thank you, my anonymous incompetent doxing stalker.

[dimwit]

You know, ten years ago when I first tried to read Davy Arbeiter's blog in which he bold faced and underlined special points that he was trying to make, I realized this was not a person who I needed to waste my time with. Since then, in the few times that I have bothered to look at his blog, it has filled me with the kind of dread reserved visits to the odd uncle who has just been released on day parole for doing abnormal acts with wildlife.

So thanks a fuck of a lot for continually posting the shit he writes Havill. I know he writes the same shit in the Japan Times, but I don't read any of the stuff he writes there either. It is avoidable. By continually commenting about his website you increase the traffic there, which seems to me to be rather self defeating.

[kurogane]

Havill = OP.........NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Racist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyhoo.........some of us are having fun, man. It's a good wide ranging discussion, and while I agree that Havill, Wagyl and I all could do with more productive hobbies it keeps us sharp and gives good health chuckle.

Besides, I think most well adjusted long termers all get a similar morbid attraction from anything Debito. I find it a lot like looking at roadkill: it sort of grosses you out for a bit but then you realise how much better off you are than that pile of tattered fur and blood lying crushed at the side of the road soaking in its own defecant. People like Debito do good work, just not of the kind they or their sycophants claim. Where is his resident furry buddy, anyways? I have been ramping up the amps in happy anticipation of the Hijinx rabies bite.

[omae mona]

Holy mother of god, did this thread get long. I am trying to figure out what I need to eat in order to end up sitting on the can for long enough to catch up on reading all the posts. I'll just skip to the most recent one:

People like Debito do good work, just not of the kind they or their sycophants claim.

Years ago, I thought some of his blog information was quite helpful. But has he done anything helpful for anybody in the last 5 or 6 years?

[havill]

It is avoidable.

And yet... here you are.

I [or more importantly, the OP] didn't make you or anybody else read or do anything. (It'd be cool if I had that kind of power)
I'll admit that I sometimes point the horses to the water.
But it's you that decide to drink.

[havill]

P.S. Just so I'm clear, "JA" means "Japanese-American" (I'm used to the abbreviation "J-A"), not "Japan Agriculture", right?

Not 100% sure if I'm dealing with Asian-Americans or farmers.

[Samurai_Jerk]

P.S. Just so I'm clear, "JA" means "Japanese-American" (I'm used to the abbreviation "J-A"), not "Japan Agriculture", right?

Not 100% sure if I'm dealing with Asian-Americans or farmers.

He means the latter so you are indeed dealing with a farmer.

[matsuki]

How many of us would enjoy Japan if we were fully accepted as Japanese and expected to behave accordingly?

Just reposting this cause seems many skimmed over it...

At the end of the day and despite the occasional disgruntled asshole, I'll be the first to admit that I have "Gaijin privilege" and get away with many things that would probably get me attacked and such if I was Japanese or though to be. I think it's called "tolerance" and is not so rare here.

[legion]

P.S. Just so I'm clear, "JA" means "Japanese-American" (I'm used to the abbreviation "J-A"), not "Japan Agriculture", right?

Not 100% sure if I'm dealing with Asian-Americans or farmers.

He means the latter so you are indeed dealing with a farmer.

I thought JA and under 70 years of age were mutually exclusive

[Salty]

I don`t see what belonging to JA has to do with a foreigners` perception of whether they are accepted…. I was going to say – accepted as a Japanese, but then I do not know his nationality. But maybe it is just perception as a member of society, which too wouldn`t appear to me to be related to membership in an industry organization. Now go and try to join the ranks of the Nationalists as they make their black truck rounds, and I suspect that perception of non-acceptance would be more than just perception.