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  • fuckedgaijin ‹ General ‹ Gaijin Ghetto

Japan and Donald Keene

Groovin' in the Gaijin Gulag
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Japan and Donald Keene

Postby Mulboyne » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:29 pm

The Yomiuri has been running a series of autobiographical essays by Donald Keene. The series started back in January and is already up to the 41st installment so this is hardly breaking news. He has some interesting observations about learning Japanese and being in Japan after the war which put into perspective the modern FG experience.

...I also took lessons in Japanese language from an American, a man of great kindness and sensitivity to Japanese art and poetry but who unfortunately knew little Japanese. A new textbook had been issued that (unlike the saita, saita text) was intended to teach foreign adults to read Japanese; but the professor, who rarely prepared the lessons, was obliged to look up words he did not know in his dictionary while the students were translating...

...For foreigners, the experience of learning Japanese is a major event that links them to everyone else who has studied Japanese. Years later, when I travelled in Europe, it was easy to make friends with professors of Japanese wherever I went. Regardless of the country or the differences in our political opinions, the experience of memorizing kanji and learning Japanese grammar created important ties between us...

...The American troops followed us ashore. Everyone was relieved there was no enemy to fight, but a few days later we had a different kind of shock. The least capable of the Navy interpreters came up to me with a sign he had found. He said, "Of course I get the general meaning, but I'm not sure of a few things." The inscription on the sign was perfectly clear: "Gathering point for bubonic plague victims." Messages were hastily sent to San Francisco for plague serum and for days we looked anxiously at our bodies for telltale spots. Many years later the wife of a Japanese army doctor who had been stationed on Kiska revealed that her husband, guessing the Americans would find it, had written the inscription. It was a joke, but nobody laughed...

Strange to say, although I had eagerly awaited release from the Navy, I had never given much thought to what I would do afterwards. Most of the other language officers planned to return to the work they had been doing before they joined the Navy, but I had no profession. I knew Japanese, but this was not much of an asset. It was commonly assumed that it would take at least fifty years for Japan to regain its prewar importance. Some language officers, deciding that China was likely to replace Japan as the leading power in East Asia, shifted to the study of Chinese. But most of those who had learned Japanese lost all interest in using the language. If I met them, they would say with a touch of pride they had forgotten every word of Japanese or they would declaim the few phrases they remembered, such as "Teki wo mizugiwa nite gekimetsu subeshi" (Annihilate the enemy at the water's edge!)...People sometimes congratulate me on having realized in 1946 that an economic miracle would take place in Japan twenty-five years later, but I did not in the least expect this miracle. I made the choice because of a vague awareness that I was temperamentally suited to the study of Japan. Years later, when I applied for a visa at the Japanese Consulate General in New York, a young vice-consul said, "You were clever to have studied Japanese. You would never have become famous in anything more competitive." It naturally did not please me to be told this, but he may have been right.
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Postby jingai » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:29 am

This is great, thanks for posting. I've enjoyed Keene's others writings and it's interesting to read his own life story.
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Postby Taro Toporific » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:28 pm

jingai wrote:...I've enjoyed Keene's others writings and it's interesting to read his own life story.

<flame-alert>
I'm in real mood to burn some karma... Keene is better person on paper.
Face to face, he's rude to everyone even in fucking church (Unitarian). In Shinjuku 2-chome, he's known as a very "unfun" drunk. If you meet him, never show any interest in his favorite topic, "simulacra". Oh, and he is the only person less likely to pick up a bar tab than me, hee, hee.
</flame-alert>
:flame:
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Postby Greji » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:47 pm

Taro Toporific wrote:<flame-alert>and he is the only person less likely to pick up a bar tab than me, hee, hee.
</flame-alert>
:flame:


That species of homo sapien is extinct!
:cool:
"There are those that learn by reading. Then a few who learn by observation. The rest have to piss on an electric fence and find out for themselves!"- Will Rogers
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Postby cstaylor » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:24 am

Taro Toporific wrote:<flame-alert>
I'm in real mood to burn some karma... Keene is better person on paper.
Face to face, he's rude to everyone even in fucking church (Unitarian). In Shinjuku 2-chome, he's known as a very "unfun" drunk. If you meet him, never show any interest in his favorite topic, "simulacra". Oh, and he is the only person less likely to pick up a bar tab than me, hee, hee.
</flame-alert>
:flame:

You know, from reading all of the entries in that Yomiuri series, I gathered the same opinion. He comes off as a real asshole, which was clearly illustrated in the Yoko Ono episode.

I'm not one to give advice, but here's a piece of semi-wisdom: If a Japanese brings an interpreter, it's not an insult: he just wants to make sure that his feelings are clearly expressed and that he wants a second opinion on whatever answers he's getting. Keene says that he's mellowed in recent years about the whole Gaijin speaking Japanese thing, but it didn't take me 30 fucking years to figure that out.

I don't understand the fascination that n00bs have with long-term foreigners like Keene or Ritchie. Does anyone have anything original about Japan to share? Temples, Sumo, a passing friendship with some nutso uyoku novelist with a Napolean complex that offed himself? I hope my life is a larger sum than that sorry list of accomplishments.
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Postby kamome » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:10 am

I met Donald Keene once, and I agree with Taro that he doesn't come off as a nice guy in person.
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Postby cstaylor » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:20 am

kamome wrote:I met Donald Keene once, and I agree with Taro that he doesn't come off as a nice guy in person.

Can you imagine the sum of your life being: "I translated some ancient Japanese texts that no on cares about into English and I was an associate of some semi-famous Japanese authors, one of which offed himself because he had a Napolean complex."

Talk about a waste of humanity. If that was my lot in life, I'd be a bitter asshole at the bar as well.
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Postby jingai » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:01 am

Well, l never met Keene in person but enjoyed his work. I didn't read much of the series yet.

I saw Richie at Yale last week where he showed his own films and gave a truly interesting and thoughtful introduction to Kurosawa's Stray Dog, folding in his own observations and experiences as a 25 year old kid wandering around Tokyo in 1949.

Richie and Keene were truly pioneers and today's Japan scholars owe a lot to them. I think they have a lot to share because they took the time to understand Japan in a way few foreigners ever bother to do- most get stymied by the language or resign themselves to being gaijin-at-arms-length who never really get close to society.

Translating classical literature is a noble profession, and being the first to do it must be exciting. Ever heard of Robert Graves? Beats translating giant robot manga.

Interesting sprawling interview with Richie:
http://www.english.ccsu.edu/barnetts/Richie.htm

You'll find many, many people who would happily give it up for a day or a month--or a year. They go abroad and do all sorts of things in very unJapanese ways. But you often find this parabola that drags them back to the country. This happened to Tanizaki; this happened to Mishima. Mishima went about as far as you can go and came back and did the most conventional thing you can think of. No, it's not like living with Texan rednecks. It's really not. But it's like living with extremely cultured, cultivated Texan rednecks.
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Postby kamome » Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:41 am

cstaylor wrote:Can you imagine the sum of your life being: "I translated some ancient Japanese texts that no on cares about into English and I was an associate of some semi-famous Japanese authors, one of which offed himself because he had a Napolean complex."

Talk about a waste of humanity. If that was my lot in life, I'd be a bitter asshole at the bar as well.


I wouldn't go as far as that, since Keene can claim that he has done more than most in bringing the Japanese literary world to light for Western readers.

But there is no excuse for being an a-hole, no matter how accomplished you are.

By the way, I think we've all been dancing around an interesting issue - isn't Donald Keene gay?
YBF is as ageless as time itself.--Cranky Bastard, 7/23/08

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Postby Mulboyne » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:28 pm

I can quite believe that Donald Keene is a pain in the arse. He certainly comes across as capricious in the Yomiuri articles but these are his own words so he is not trying to present himself in a overly favourable light. I've enjoyed work by both Keene and Richie and it's intriguing to see how people have engaged with Japan in their lives. That's also one of the things that makes this forum interesting.
kamome wrote:By the way, I think we've all been dancing around an interesting issue - isn't Donald Keene gay?
There's nothing to dance around. Is there anything new to say?
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Postby kamome » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:05 am

Mulboyne wrote:There's nothing to dance around. Is there anything new to say?


That aspect of his life hasn't come up in this thread yet, so I thought I'd bring it up. It calls to mind that question about why there seems to be a number of gay Japan experts and what attracts gay people to Japan.

Of course, that has no relevance to his personality, but I wonder why he doesn't talk about that aspect of his life in the online series?
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Postby Mulboyne » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:24 pm

TIME: Keene: Language of Love
The 84-year-old Japanologist Donald Keene walks in a state of intense absorption. "If he doesn't recognize you when you pass him on the sidewalk," says one of Keene's students at Columbia University, where he still teaches a seminar on Japanese literature, "it's because his head is so full of everything he's ever read." Few heads anywhere, including Japan, have taken in as much Japanese literature as Keene's. His forthcoming memoir, Chronicles of My Life: An American in the Heart of Japan, tells the unlikely story of how a boy born in Brooklyn in 1922 grew increasingly drawn to a country that many in his generation would know only as an enemy to fear and conquer. Lovingly illustrated by the artist Akira Yamaguchi, the book limns a life inseparably linked to its dominant passion. "I sometimes think," Keene writes, "that if, as the result of an accident, I were to lose my knowledge of Japanese, there would not be much left for me"...more...
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Postby kusai Jijii » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:54 am

kamome wrote:It calls to mind that question about why there seems to be a number of gay Japan experts and what attracts gay people to Japan.


A very interesting observation you make Bird. As a lesbian trapped in a man's body, that might explain why I love living in Japan so much.

Thanks for the therapy,
KJ.
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Postby PINK-STEEL » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:00 pm

kusai Jijii wrote:
kamome wrote:It calls to mind that question about why there seems to be a number of gay Japan experts and what attracts gay people to Japan.


A very interesting observation you make Bird. As a lesbian trapped in a man's body, that might explain why I love living in Japan so much.

Thanks for the therapy,
KJ.

KJ...you too bro? I thought I was the only carpet-muncher thrown into a male vessel at birth!!! Maybe we should start a therapy group or something? Mind you, I now save a shit load on batteries having my own real dick to use!!

As for Keene, who cares what his orientations are, really!! He's made significant contributions to the fields of Japanology and translation in his time, so why not leave it at that. Let's face it, people far up in their world and who are obviously blown left, right center, up, down and along the sides for their prowess and/or name all tend to become prats along the way!! Maybe they deserve to be so and are harmless for it anyhow!!!

PS
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Postby Mulboyne » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:41 am

Yomiuri: Donald Keene, 7 others win Order of Culture
The government announced Tuesday it would award eight people the 2008 Order of Culture, including three Nobel Prize winners, while designating 16 Persons of Cultural Merit. The eight are conductor Seiji Ozawa, 73; mathematician Kiyoshi Ito, 93; elementary particle researchers Makoto Kobayashi, 64, and Toshihide Masukawa, 68; ocean biologist Osamu Shimomura, 80; novelist Seiko Tanabe, 80; researcher of Japanese literature Donald Keene, 86; and former athlete Hironoshin Furuhashi, 80.
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Postby OKLAHOMA » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:07 pm

You could just buy his book and read about his life all at once.

Keene (or was it Ritchie) mentions in his writings that it would be easier to practise "the love that dares not speak its name" in Japan, where one could get away with it, unlike in Keene's post WWII America. Add Seidensticker to that list. He brags in his memoir about bringing homeless bums back to his apartment, feeding them and then taking a ride along the Hershey Highway.
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Postby dimwit » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:55 pm

The eight are conductor Seiji Ozawa, 73; mathematician Kiyoshi Ito, 93; elementary particle researchers Makoto Kobayashi, 64, and Toshihide Masukawa, 68 ocean biologist Osamu Shimomura, 80; novelist Seiko Tanabe, 80; researcher of Japanese literature Donald Keene, 86; and former athlete Hironoshin Furuhashi, 80.


I love how they finally recognize Japanese researchers only after they have won Nobel Prizes. I assume that most of the selection commitee have been spending a tad too long dwelling on their own culture.
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Postby omae mona » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:16 pm

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Postby Mulboyne » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:34 pm

[YT]OXILZNrX_a4[/YT]

[YT]H7bt_XXgTSA[/YT]

[YT]8YUhdrEHjKw[/YT]

[YT]8DZHIRqPsFU[/YT]
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Needed documents 'to prove completion of elementary school'

Postby Taro Toporific » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:10 pm

THE SATURDAY PROFILE
Lifelong Scholar of the Japanese Becomes One of Them
The New York Times | November 2, 2012
This year, when Donald Keene, 90, a New York native and retired professor, became a citizen of Japan, he gained what eludes many Westerners who live there: acceptance.
With his small frame hunched by 90 years of life, and a self-deprecating manner that can make him seem emotionally sensitive to the point of fragility, Donald Keene would have appeared an unlikely figure to become a source of inspiration for a wounded nation.
Yet that is exactly how the New York native and retired professor of literature from Columbia University is now seen here in his adopted homeland of Japan. Last year, as many foreign residents and even Japanese left the country for fear of radiation from the Fukushima nuclear accident that followed a deadly earthquake and tsunami, Dr. Keene purposefully went the opposite direction. He announced that he would apply for Japanese citizenship to show his support....
<snip>
...
Dr. Keene says he has been inundated by invitations to give public lectures, which are so popular that drawings are often held to see who can attend.
"I have not met a Japanese since then who has not thanked me. Except the Ministry of Justice," he added with his typically understated humor, referring to the government office in charge of immigration.
With the patient air of someone who has tussled with Japanese bureaucracy before, he listed what he called the absurd requirements imposed upon him to take Japanese citizenship, including documentation to prove his completion of elementary school in New York City. Still, in a nation that welcomes few immigrants, Dr. Keene’s application was quickly approved. To become Japanese, Dr. Keene, who is unmarried, had to relinquish his American citizenship.
Continues...
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby Russell » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:47 pm

Hmm. I did not receive documents proving my successful graduation from elementary school.

Does that mean I now cannot obtain the Japanese nationality?
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby TennoChinko » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:24 pm

Russell wrote:Hmm. I did not receive documents proving my successful graduation from elementary school.

Does that mean I now cannot obtain the Japanese nationality?


T'is a necessary evil.

Home-schooled children do not belong in any truly civilized society and must be discouraged at all costs!
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby Russell » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:12 pm

TennoChinko wrote:
Russell wrote:Hmm. I did not receive documents proving my successful graduation from elementary school.

Does that mean I now cannot obtain the Japanese nationality?


T'is a necessary evil.

Home-schooled children do not belong in any truly civilized society and must be discouraged at all costs!

Ough! I am not even home-schooled. I just did not receive any certificate, since every kid in Holland is assumed to go through elementary school by default. No need to prove that.

Now I am stuck. I bet they do not accept any proof of further education if the basis isn't there... :mrgreen:

But seriously, I am surprised at this requirement. What is next? My swimming diplomas?
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby taisaku » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:04 pm

Russell wrote:But seriously, I am surprised at this requirement. What is next? My swimming diplomas?

Which, you being Dutch, would not be difficult to prove?
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby Mock Cockpit » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:31 pm

Russell wrote:
TennoChinko wrote:
Russell wrote:Hmm. I did not receive documents proving my successful graduation from elementary school.

Does that mean I now cannot obtain the Japanese nationality?


T'is a necessary evil.

Home-schooled children do not belong in any truly civilized society and must be discouraged at all costs!

Ough! I am not even home-schooled. I just did not receive any certificate, since every kid in Holland is assumed to go through elementary school by default. No need to prove that.

Now I am stuck. I bet they do not accept any proof of further education if the basis isn't there... :mrgreen:

But seriously, I am surprised at this requirement. What is next? My swimming diplomas?

London to a brick on this a hoop they want you to jump through rather than need you to jump through. Kind of a sign that you're serious about this shit but not a dealbreaker. I can't remember having any kind of graduation ceremony or certificate in primary school either so it's not just Holland.
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby Taro Toporific » Wed May 01, 2013 10:17 pm

Keene adopts shamisen player as son
japantimes.co.jp | May 1, 2013
Donald Keene, a prominent scholar of Japanese literature who last year became a Japanese citizen, has adopted the shamisen player Seiki Uehara as his son, Keene revealed on Monday in a talk he gave in Niigata.
According to Seiki, 62, the talk of possible adoption surfaced around spring 2011 when the U.S.-born Keene, 90, expressed his intention to switch to Japanese citizenship.
The musician took Keene’s surname in March last year.
Their exchanges began in November 2006 when Seiki, who performs “joruri,” or traditional Japanese narrative music, visited the scholar to ask him about “kojoruri,” an ancient form of it.
He also sought Keene’s advice when he performed “Kochi Hoin Godenki,” a work in the puppet joruri theater...
<snip>
...
Living in Tokyo with Keene, Seiki cooks meals for and manages the schedule of the scholar.
More...

Keene-Uehara.jpg
http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/article/national/news/CK2013050102000104.html
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby Screwed-down Hairdo » Thu May 02, 2013 4:55 am

Taro Toporific wrote:Keene adopts shamisen player as son


Son? :biggrin2:
I suspect the professor's keenness may actually extend to Seiki's seiki...

Kyodo must surely be reporting tongue-in-cheek? Japan has had gay marriage for far longer than anywhere else and Keene and his seiki are displaying precisely how it is done. I suspect that awareness of traditional Japanese arts extends beyond joruri and that Keene's seiki may also be proficient in shakuhachi.

Kyodo has been owned.
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby yanpa » Thu May 02, 2013 6:58 am

Screwed-down Hairdo wrote:
Taro Toporific wrote:Keene adopts shamisen player as son


Son? :biggrin2:
I suspect the professor's keenness may actually extend to Seiki's seiki...

Kyodo must surely be reporting tongue-in-cheek? Japan has had gay marriage for far longer than anywhere else and Keene and his seiki are displaying precisely how it is done. I suspect that awareness of traditional Japanese arts extends beyond joruri and that Keene's seiki may also be proficient in shakuhachi.

Kyodo has been owned.


+snot :lol:
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Thu May 02, 2013 4:17 pm

"Who's your daddy?"
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Re: Japan and Donald Keene

Postby Screwed-down Hairdo » Thu May 02, 2013 4:23 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:"Who's your daddy?"


Well, maybe not...as a friend pointed out, there's not likely to be too many nanogenerian tops around.
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