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  • fuckedgaijin ‹ General ‹ Gaijin Ghetto

Another Car Thread

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Another Car Thread

Postby Wage Slave » Mon May 19, 2014 8:27 pm

I know very very little about cars so I'm interested what people have to think. Eamonn Fingleton who wrote what I still consider to be the worst article, bar none, about Japan some time back has opined on the car market in Japan. Its seems to me that in fact cars are cheaper here than just about anywhere and that (for example) Fords made for the European market are not actually what the market demands. They are typically manual transmission, noisier (sporty?)and generally a bit less refined than Japanese cars costing about the same.

Anyway, as I said I know little.

Top of the list is something that – at least for those of us who know Japan – is hidden in plain sight: the Japanese auto market. Fifty years after the Tokyo authorities ostensibly began opening to free trade, the Japanese auto market remains one of the world’s most closed. I don’t mean just that Detroit-made cars don’t get a look in. These are, with few exceptions, unsuitable for Japanese roads. But the Detroit Big Three’s subsidiaries in Europe, particularly subsidiaries of Ford and General Motors, make plenty of cars that – in a fair world – should do well in Japan. After all such cars compete, and in many cases compete strongly, against Japanese competition across Europe. They don’t have a prayer against Japan’s non-tariff barriers.

Even more tellingly Volkswagen is a tiny also-ran in Japan, with just 1 percent of the market. Yet Volkswagen is no slouch in other markets and in fact ranks broadly equal to Toyota as the world’s largest auto-maker (the days when that title seemed to be General Motors’s by birthright are gone).

Then there is Renault, which is supposedly (at least if you believe the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal) the senior partner in an alliance with Japan’s second largest automaker Nissan. For more than a decade now Renault chief Carlos Ghosn has been trying to get Renault cars into Nissan showrooms. The last I heard he was even living much of his time in the posh Tokyo district of Azabu in one of the world’s more expensive rental apartments. He has remarkably little to show for his efforts: to the extent that the Renault has established any presence in Japan it is as a make of bicycles. Made under license in Taiwan, Renault bicycles have captured, on an optimistic count, perhaps 1 percent of the Japanese bicycle market!


http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/04/20/whats-japans-guiltiest-secret-hint-its-not-the-comfort-women/
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby yanpa » Mon May 19, 2014 8:52 pm

Dunno much about cars either, but here's my 2yen 16sen (tax included) - not sure about this Fingleton chap.

I always thought the Renault-Nissan alliance was a strategic one, not merely a way of selling Renault cars in Japan. Weak source I know, but Wikipedia has a better opinion of Mr. Ghosn:

Whackypedia wrote:Under CEO Ghosn's "Nissan Revival Plan" (NRP), the company has rebounded in what many leading economists consider to be one of the most spectacular corporate turnarounds in history,[48] catapulting Nissan to record profits and a dramatic revitalization of both its Nissan and Infiniti model line-ups. Ghosn has been recognized in Japan for the company's turnaround in the midst of an ailing Japanese economy. Ghosn and the Nissan turnaround were featured in Japanese manga and popular culture. His achievements in revitalizing Nissan were noted by the Japanese Government, which awarded him the Japan Medal with Blue Ribbon in 2004.
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby Coligny » Mon May 19, 2014 8:56 pm

Carlos Goshn is not a Renault man, he was put at the head of restructuring Nissan by Louis Schweitzer (Socialist, former master spy of Francois Mitterrand) as some sort of gigantic megatrol since Gohsn is Brazilian (therefore potentially hated by the japs) and jew (therefore... Let's not go there but you know what I mean).
Gohsn will do everything to promote Nissan and fuck with Renault, this imbecile killed the Twingo refresh and then had to revive it in a hurry, killed the revival of Alpine Renault not once but twice, made the flagship of Renault the 'Lattitude' a rebranded Samsung SM5 drawing the ire of Sarkozy (another idiot but at least a Renault guy) who personally forbade him to have it called the 'Safrane' since she was not made in France (Safrane being the traditionnal name for Renault's flagship -Velsatis is better to be forgotten) he selected to have Renault and Nissan develop two separate electric cars programs instead of joining the plateforms. And the list goes on... Top of the cake this asshole drives a Porsche in Tokyo, which even by French standard would not be acceptable.

So, not much Renault in Japan... Hell... Even I drive a fucking RiceVan... Now... When you see a local driving a Renault here, there's really little chance he bought it at random or by mistake... And don't get me started on the local Alpine owners...

Side note... When a small country got at least 3 of the world major carmakers (Totoya, Nissan, Honda) no doubt there is not much place for the other players...
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby yanpa » Mon May 19, 2014 9:11 pm

Coligny wrote:Carlos Goshn is not a Renault man, he was put at the head of restructuring Nissan by Louis Schweitzer (Socialist, former master spy of Francois Mitterrand) as some sort of gigantic megatrol since Gohsn is Brazilian (therefore potentially hated by the japs) and jew (therefore... Let's not go there but you know what I mean).
Gohsn will do everything to promote Nissan and fuck with Renault, this imbecile killed the Twingo refresh and then had to revive it in a hurry, killed the revival of Alpine Renault not once but twice, made the flagship of Renault the 'Lattitude' a rebranded Samsung SM5 drawing the ire of Sarkozy (another idiot but at least a Renault guy) who personally forbade him to have it called the 'Safrane' since she was not made in France (Safrane being the traditionnal name for Renault's flagship -Velsatis is better to be forgotten) he selected to have Renault and Nissan develop two separate electric cars programs instead of joining the plateforms. And the list goes on... Top of the cake this asshole drives a Porsche in Tokyo, which even by French standard would not be acceptable.

So, not much Renault in Japan... Hell... Even I drive a fucking RiceVan... Now... When you see a local driving a Renault here, there's really little chance he bought it at random or by mistake... And don't get me started on the local Alpine owners...


Aha, a more qualified opinion :idea:

Someone in my neighbourhood does drive a Renault 4, if it helps :lol:

Coligny wrote:Side note... When a small country got at least 3 of the world major carmakers (Totoya, Nissan, Honda) no doubt there is not much place for the other players...

Yeah, especially when the incumbent players grew up in a relatively isolated, protected market. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, it does mean foreign manufacturers would need to invest a hell of a lot with uncertain results to break out of their niche markets. Price alone isn't going to do it.
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby wagyl » Mon May 19, 2014 9:37 pm

The article is commented on at http://japologism.com/were-all-apologists-now/945
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby Wage Slave » Mon May 19, 2014 9:38 pm

He stresses the significance of non tariff barriers but doesn't give any details. I am sure they still exist, and Japan is still pretty protectionist, but a lot were removed weren't they? Is that really the main reason foreign carmakers can't get much traction here? If you look at Nissan, Toyota and Honda in the US and UK, they built factories long long ago, entered into a huge number of local partnerships to build a dealer network etc, modified their product to local conditions/tastes and generally did a great deal of work over many years.

He also seems very keen on that figure of 1%. Is it real or just a figure of speech?
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby Wage Slave » Mon May 19, 2014 9:42 pm

wagyl wrote:The article is commented on at http://japologism.com/were-all-apologists-now/945


Thanks. I saw that but it doesn't really comment on the content but merely takes a (probably justified) swipe or two at the author and his tone. Perish the thought that that is fairly typical of that site.
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby wagyl » Mon May 19, 2014 10:09 pm

Non-tariff barriers I suppose consist of, by definition, barriers other than price barriers. Admittedly, some may be conflated with price barriers, like the one in the US involving pickup trucks http://www.cato.org/publications/commen ... ful-secret (An interesting juxtaposition there: guilty secret or shameful secret??) which leads to pickup trucks being imported in two parts and "assembled" in the US. [s]I think as a result all of the Hiluxes sold in Japan are made in the US, I wonder if that is included in Mr Finnegan's figures....[/s] The strikethrough appears to have absolutely no factual basis. Strikethrough code appears to be borked so please recompile it in your own brains

But an hypothetical example of a non-price barrier is a regulation requiring seatbelts to be of a certain standard, a Galapagos standard best met by Japanese produced seatbelts, requiring new imports to have the existing seatbelts replaced. This is hypothetical, but that is the sort of thing he might be thinking of. It doesn't add a lot to the price, but is inconvenient and discourages the casual import.

The reason why I raise the subject of non-price barriers is that we next have to ask ourselves, would we buy a European Ford for use in Japan even if available and there was no price fiddling? Is there really the demand here?

If he means to say that the lack of a sales and servicing network is a barrier, can he point to a regulation preventing new entrants to that industry? One which targets foreign brands but doesn't target, for example, Mitsuoka?

And anyway, I challenge anyone to point to any country with an car assembly industry which does not influence domestic prices by support, tax holidays or loans to the industry or by tariffs. I can't think of any.

Edited to strikethrough some content in first paragraph and again to wryly comment on that edit.
Last edited by wagyl on Mon May 19, 2014 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby Coligny » Mon May 19, 2014 10:24 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Regulations

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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby yanpa » Mon May 19, 2014 10:31 pm

wagyl wrote:But an hypothetical example of a non-price barrier is a regulation requiring seatbelts to be of a certain standard, a Galapagos standard best met by Japanese produced seatbelts, requiring new imports to have the existing seatbelts replaced. This is hypothetical, but that is the sort of thing he might be thinking of. It doesn't add a lot to the price, but is inconvenient and discourages the casual import.


My brother used to work for Toyota in Australia doing "market localisation", i.e. US customers prefer a softer suspension + moa cupholders whereas Europeans prefer a more solid ride, that kind of thing. So I guess there would be additional "localisation" costs for Japan (Hello Kitty themed dashboard or whatever :twisted: ) which help to make market entry economically unviable below a certain market share.
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby Wage Slave » Mon May 19, 2014 10:32 pm

wagyl wrote:but is inconvenient and discourages the casual import.


A good example. From what I read, during the seventies and eighties they went further than that. The car being imported was subject to a 1,000 point check and any violation meant the thing had to be sent back for rectification. Nothing could be done in Japan - the car had to return to its country of origin.

However, after some banging of fists on desks and heads against brick walls over many years that changed. Although you don't see a lot of foreign cars here now, there were effectively none in the good old days. I'm sure they still exist but find it odd that the article doesn't cite a single example even though he relies on it as his central tenet.

That said, he also claims that cars are expensive here to allow Japanese companies to dump overseas. I don't think they are and nor are other things these days. They are just about exactly the same price or cheaper. Small consumer level cameras are much cheaper, for example.
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby Coligny » Mon May 19, 2014 11:49 pm

Wage Slave wrote:However, after some banging of fists on desks and heads against brick walls over many years that changed. Although you don't see a lot of foreign cars here now, there were effectively none in the good old days. I'm sure they still exist but find it odd that the article doesn't cite a single example even though he relies on it as his central tenet.



For Aichi it's only in poor people hoods., the second sign with banjos that you should turn back...

Sidenote, really few car makers import their base trim models giving the impressiom of being more expensive against jdm Nissan Note with 1 engine choice, 1 tranny option and 4 colors to choose from...
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby Mike Oxlong » Tue May 20, 2014 12:41 am

Where the World's Unsold Cars go to Die - Massive Stockpiles in Many Countries
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby yanpa » Tue May 20, 2014 1:01 am

I'm sure I've seen some of those photos before, about 6 years ago.

Now, am I contributing to the auto industry's woes by not having ever owned a car?
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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby wuchan » Tue May 20, 2014 1:44 am

yanpa wrote:I'm sure I've seen some of those photos before, about 6 years ago.

Now, am I contributing to the auto industry's woes by not having ever owned a car?

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Re: Another Car Thread

Postby Coligny » Tue May 20, 2014 1:48 am

Not a fan of jalopunik but:

http://jalopnik.com/that-zero-hedge-art ... 1578124255
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