Katakata Japanese in a non-Romaji world

[matsuki]

One of the brands I distribute for has a name that it seems like every J-person just decides to read as if it's romaji. For example, "Bower Pie" that should be read like パオワパイ is being read as ボワーピエ. I've done my best to promote the brand as simply "ビーピー" and avoid the fucked katakana all together but nonetheless, I'm constantly contacting magazines and shit, to correct them, and even worse cases, having to tell them they are incorrectly labeling the products as "ボワー" which is actually one of our competitors Even with 人気 people we sponsor using "ビーピー", we still can't win. Partner I work with (Japanese) has pretty much just said all we can do is "give in" to what everyone here reads it as. While the everyday fucked katakata word is mildly annoying/amusing, I can't go a week without naming something in English that I hear some fucked katakana mispronunciation that is obviously rooted in some J-person assuming romaji pronunciation. I know many cite languages like Spanish working with that but then you get words like "carillo" that they assume are pronounced カリッロ instead of the correct カリッヨ

Do they ever account for this shit in school here or WTF?

[wagyl]

I'm sorry what are you asking here? That the Japanese correctly identify the national origins of a Latin alphabet brandname and modify their reading of it to match as closely as their native sound collection can meet the standardised pronunciation in the nation of origin?

Even for those with extensive cultural knowledge, maybe if the brandname is based on a family name or on a place name you might have a little luck, but how are they supposed to recognise a completely made up name?

For a start, recognise that this is a problem even within Latin alphabet cultures. Do you pronounce Renault, Citroën, Peugeot in a way that will satisfy the French? Do all of your countrymen? Are the French ever satisfied anyway? Then there are the hybrids, like Talbot -- I am not sure how that was pronounced in France. And I know that most of the people I grew up with pronounce Adidas in a way that would make any German, and probably you as well, want to put a gun to their head. Then, within the Anglosphere there seems to be dispute about Jaguar, what are these foreign folk to do about this British brand?

But if you are just having a rant, go for your life. Just don't expect improvement.

[omae mona]

I think there are similar issues going the opposite direction, with camera maker Nigh-con, auto maker Hahn-duh, or maybe the best example: Mazda.

What amuses me is when we resident gaijin can't pronounce English-origin katakana words properly. If the word is close enough to English we have a habit of butchering it and uttering some strange mix of the original English word and the katakana version.

[yanpa]

It amused me once to see someone accuse the Japanese of pronouncing "Tintin" incorrectly.

[wagyl]

In fact I saw this just recently, with the claim that it was to avoid associations with チンチン

Indeed, by the elves at the bottom of Mr Fry's garden no less https://twitter.com/qikipedia/status/160704539027193856

[Samurai_Jerk]

Choko just likes to get his panties in a twist over anything the Japanese do.

[wagyl]

Choko just likes to get his panties in a twist over anything the Japanese do.

Aww, he has his heart in the right place (not sure about his dick though), but sometimes just finds it hard to look at things slightly out of his personal experience. Like the brick construction discussion.

[matsuki]

I'm sorry what are you asking here?

1.) Why so many foreign words end up getting katakataized based on how they're spelled...with the incorrect assumption they're pronounced like they'd be read in romaji....INSTEAD of based on how they're actually pronounced.

2.) Why the correct katakana gets ignored for a fucked katakata reading of the word in it's original language.

maybe if the brandname is based on a family name or on a place name you might have a little luck

This is the issue I have with the brand name I distribute, which is why there are two company names that share the same family name....though no luck with getting either pronounced correctly let alone differentiated. I even thought of using just straight katakana in the name/logo but then when the products arrive with it spelled out, they complain "it's not the same!"

Choko just likes to get his panties in a twist over anything the Japanese do.

Aww, he has his heart in the right place (not sure about his dick though)

Guilty as charged Yeah, this is more rant than anything else

[matsuki]

I think there are similar issues going the opposite direction, with camera maker Nigh-con, auto maker Hahn-duh, or maybe the best example: Mazda.

Yeah, that's equally annoying...let's go sing some carry-oh-kee

Mazda isn't the only one...Nooritsu is "Noritz"

What amuses me is when we resident gaijin can't pronounce English-origin katakana words properly. If the word is close enough to English we have a habit of butchering it and uttering some strange mix of the original English word and the katakana version.

It's gummy damn it! Not goo-mee. This is goo mee:

[wagyl]

Ahem

Original

The one for markets across the English Channel and Atlantic Ocean

[Samurai_Jerk]

I think there are similar issues going the opposite direction, with camera maker Nigh-con, auto maker Hahn-duh, or maybe the best example: Mazda.

Yeah, that's equally annoying...let's go sing some carry-oh-kee

No. People that insist on using or trying to use the original pronunciation when speaking English are far more annoying. Even your Spanish language example is fucked because "ll" is pronounced differently depending on which county's/region's Spanish you're speaking. Sometimes is sounds like a "Y" sometimes it sounds kind of like a "J." One time my friend and I were arguing over the pronunciation of "como se llama." I was saying is was "yama" and my friend was saying is was "jama". We asked our buddy Juan Carlos who was right and his answer was, "I teenk you're saying dee same teeng."

[omae mona]

I think there are similar issues going the opposite direction, with camera maker Nigh-con, auto maker Hahn-duh, or maybe the best example: Mazda.

Yeah, that's equally annoying...let's go sing some carry-oh-kee

No. People that insist on using or trying to use the original pronunciation when speaking English are far more annoying.

By the way, when I was commenting on gaijin pronunciation of katakana words, I did mean "while speaking Japanese to Japanese people". I frequently hear people who speak great Japanese with beautiful pronunciation, but when they hit that katakana word right in the middle of their sentence, god do they mangle it. I am not immune either. I notice when I do it, but sometimes it slips out of my mouth the wrong way before I can stop myself.

But I kind of agree with SJ. It doesn't bother me much, but I think it turns some people off. I notice that foreigners who are way beyond the insecurity stage and speak fluent Japanese will intentionally go back to "carry-oh-kee" when speaking English, to avoid showing off. But people like me, who are insecure, will carefully say ろっぽんぎ,　even though it would probably be less annoying to say rip-pawn-ghee.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I find that katakana words are often the most difficult to pronounce. I still can't roll ポルトガル smoothly off my tongue.

[matsuki]

Ahem

Fair enough, sounds more like gomibear in German...bad example. In that vain of thought, how about Pho? （フォー）Which most Viets pronounce ファー? (though many Americans fuck this up too)

our Spanish language example is fucked because "ll" is pronounced differently depending on which county's/region's Spanish you're speaking. Sometimes is sounds like a "Y" sometimes it sounds kind of like a "J." One time my friend and I were arguing over the pronunciation of "como se llama." I was saying is was "yama" and my friend was saying is was "jama". We asked our buddy Juan Carlos who was right and his answer was, "I teenk you're saying dee same teeng."

Indeed, but doesn't change that being pronounced "komo serrama" won't be understood by Juan Carlos. Obviously within any language there are deviations and pronunciation may depend on where you're from....what I'm taking issue is the injection of a "new foreign word" in Japanese where it's obvious that the injector has no grasp of the actual word's pronunciation, obviously never heard it be used, and is just katakatain' it based on however he saw it spelled, with a romaji mindset. I mean, up to even a few years ago, I'd understand garakei, computer illiteracy, etc...but nowadays, when you can copy/paste that shit into google translate on your phone and hear how it's correctly pronounced, that shit shouldn't still be happening. So like I asked in the first post, do they teach anything in schools here regarding other languages not reading Romaji-style? (I don't want to even get into wasei-eigo here cause that's a whole new world of fucked)

[Samurai_Jerk]

Ahem

Fair enough, sounds more like gomibear in German...bad example. In that vain of thought, how about Pho? （フォー）Which most Viets pronounce ファー? (though many Americans fuck this up too)

our Spanish language example is fucked because "ll" is pronounced differently depending on which county's/region's Spanish you're speaking. Sometimes is sounds like a "Y" sometimes it sounds kind of like a "J." One time my friend and I were arguing over the pronunciation of "como se llama." I was saying is was "yama" and my friend was saying is was "jama". We asked our buddy Juan Carlos who was right and his answer was, "I teenk you're saying dee same teeng."

Indeed, but doesn't change that being pronounced "komo serrama" won't be understood by Juan Carlos. Obviously within any language there are deviations and pronunciation may depend on where you're from....what I'm taking issue is the injection of a "new foreign word" in Japanese where it's obvious that the injector has no grasp of the actual word's pronunciation, obviously never heard it be used, and is just katakatain' it based on however he saw it spelled, with a romaji mindset. I mean, up to even a few years ago, I'd understand garakei, computer illiteracy, etc...but nowadays, when you can copy/paste that shit into google translate on your phone and hear how it's correctly pronounced, that shit shouldn't still be happening. So like I asked in the first post, do they teach anything in schools here regarding other languages not reading Romaji-style? (I don't want to even get into wasei-eigo here cause that's a whole new world of fucked)

The Americans pronounce bruschetta "broosheta."
The English pronounce sake "sacky."
The French pronounce Seoul "say-ole."
The Brazilians call Ralph Lauren "Halph Lauren."
The Koreans pronounce Home Depot so that the second word rhymes with "teapot."
By the way, how do you pronounce Louisville, Kentucky? If you say "loo-ee-ville," you're wrong.

[yanpa]

Ahem

Fair enough, sounds more like gomibear in German...bad example. In that vain of thought, how about Pho? （フォー）Which most Viets pronounce ファー? (though many Americans fuck this up too)

Heck, I'm not even a dumb-ass American and I'd pronounce "Pho" as フォー. 'Cos like 99% of people on this planet, I don't have an exhaustive encyclopedic knowledge of every writing/transliteration system which uses Romaji. So I have to take a best guess.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Ahem

Fair enough, sounds more like gomibear in German...bad example. In that vain of thought, how about Pho? （フォー）Which most Viets pronounce ファー? (though many Americans fuck this up too)

Heck, I'm not even a dumb-ass American and I'd pronounce "Pho" as フォー. 'Cos like 99% of people on this planet, I don't have an exhaustive encyclopedic knowledge of every writing/transliteration system which uses Romaji. So I have to take a best guess.

In Laos where pho is also very common it sounded like they were saying "fur."

[yanpa]

Ahem

Fair enough, sounds more like gomibear in German...bad example. In that vain of thought, how about Pho? （フォー）Which most Viets pronounce ファー? (though many Americans fuck this up too)

Heck, I'm not even a dumb-ass American and I'd pronounce "Pho" as フォー. 'Cos like 99% of people on this planet, I don't have an exhaustive encyclopedic knowledge of every writing/transliteration system which uses Romaji. So I have to take a best guess.

In Laos where pho is also very common it sounded like they were saying "fur."

Just to make things moa fun, one theory says "Pho" derives from the French "feu".

[matsuki]

The Americans pronounce bruschetta "broosheta."
The English pronounce sake "sacky."
The French pronounce Seoul "say-ole."
The Brazilians call Ralph Lauren "Halph Lauren."
The Koreans pronounce Home Depot so that the second word rhymes with "teapot."
By the way, how do you pronounce Louisville, Kentucky? If you say "loo-ee-ville," you're wrong.

Right...but unlike above, when you katakata-ize it into katakana, the pronunciation is no longer open to such interpretation.

Ahem

Fair enough, sounds more like gomibear in German...bad example. In that vain of thought, how about Pho? （フォー）Which most Viets pronounce ファー? (though many Americans fuck this up too)

Heck, I'm not even a dumb-ass American and I'd pronounce "Pho" as フォー. 'Cos like 99% of people on this planet, I don't have an exhaustive encyclopedic knowledge of every writing/transliteration system which uses Romaji. So I have to take a best guess.

Which is completely understandable...as an individual. On the other hand, if you're introducing it as a new item on your menu at your restaurant, wouldn't you think it's worth having the correct pronunciation on the menu? (or just call it Viet-ramen) If you're writing a report about it in the newspaper or reporting on it in the news, wouldn't that 5 secs with google translate be worth it?

[wagyl]

If you're writing a report about it in the newspaper or reporting on it in the news, wouldn't that 5 secs with google translate be worth it?

Experience tells me that they don't teach this skill, not even at J-school, and not even for investigative journalists or for war dogs.

Regarding the menu items issue, I think the bruschetta is a case in point. Half the time even the staff ask if you would like brooshetta to start with. But "wouldn't you think it's worth having the staff give correct pronunciation?"

By the way, time for you to get editing at wikipedia http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC

Or maybe not: my 5 seconds with Google Translate and the first sentence of the relevant wikipedia article in Vietnamese into Japanese.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The Americans pronounce bruschetta "broosheta."
The English pronounce sake "sacky."
The French pronounce Seoul "say-ole."
The Brazilians call Ralph Lauren "Halph Lauren."
The Koreans pronounce Home Depot so that the second word rhymes with "teapot."
By the way, how do you pronounce Louisville, Kentucky? If you say "loo-ee-ville," you're wrong.

Right...but unlike above, when you katakata-ize it into katakana, the pronunciation is no longer open to such interpretation.

Ahem

Fair enough, sounds more like gomibear in German...bad example. In that vain of thought, how about Pho? （フォー）Which most Viets pronounce ファー? (though many Americans fuck this up too)

Heck, I'm not even a dumb-ass American and I'd pronounce "Pho" as フォー. 'Cos like 99% of people on this planet, I don't have an exhaustive encyclopedic knowledge of every writing/transliteration system which uses Romaji. So I have to take a best guess.

Which is completely understandable...as an individual. On the other hand, if you're introducing it as a new item on your menu at your restaurant, wouldn't you think it's worth having the correct pronunciation on the menu? (or just call it Viet-ramen) If you're writing a report about it in the newspaper or reporting on it in the news, wouldn't that 5 secs with google translate be worth it?

Why not write it "fah" on menus in English? Vietnamese is a different language so there's no need to preserve the spelling just because they use the same alphabet.

[yanpa]

Luckily for Choko's sanity, someone had their thinking cap on for Bangkok's new-ish airport, meaning you will fly into スワンナプーム rather than say スヴァーナブミ.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Luckily for Choko's sanity, someone had their thinking cap on for Bangkok's new-ish airport, meaning you will fly into スワンナプーム rather than say スヴァーナブミ.

Bangkok? If you're going to say it say it right. Everyone knows it's really called Krungthepmahanakhon Amonrattanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilokphop Noppharatratchathaniburirom Udomratchaniwetmahasathan Amonphimanawatansathit Sakkathattiyawitsanukamprasit.

[wagyl]

Luckily for Choko's sanity, someone had their thinking cap on for Bangkok's new-ish airport, meaning you will fly into スワンナプーム rather than say スヴァーナブミ.

Bangkok? If you're going to say it say it right. Everyone knows it's really called Krungthepmahanakhon Amonrattanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilokphop Noppharatratchathaniburirom Udomratchaniwetmahasathan Amonphimanawatansathit Sakkathattiyawitsanukamprasit.

Is that ISO 11940-2 transliteration? Or is it Royal Thai General System of Transcription? Or maybe American Library Association - Library of Congress Romanisation? They are different, and native Latin alphabet users might sound it and accent it like their native languages, each one different, and all of them different to native Thai, which would be unbearable! Speaking of which, Thai is a tonal language but your Latin alphabet there does not include tonal markings. Naturally, the only true solution is to render it กรุงเทพมหานคร อมรรัตนโกสินทร์ มหินทรายุธยา มหาดิลกภพ นพรัตนราชธานีบูรีรมย์ อุดมราชนิเวศน์มหาสถาน อมรพิมานอวตารสถิต สักกะทัตติยวิษณุกรรมประสิทธิ์ and hope that the local education system everywhere gets everyone up to speed.

[Mike Oxlong]

Which is completely understandable...as an individual. On the other hand, if you're introducing it as a new item on your menu at your restaurant, wouldn't you think it's worth having the correct pronunciation on the menu? (or just call it Viet-ramen) If you're writing a report about it in the newspaper or reporting on it in the news, wouldn't that 5 secs with google translate be worth it?

I've been to a place in Gifu about 10 years ago that did just that. Vietnam-ramen.

[IparryU]

I think there are similar issues going the opposite direction, with camera maker Nigh-con, auto maker Hahn-duh, or maybe the best example: Mazda.

Yeah, that's equally annoying...let's go sing some carry-oh-kee

No. People that insist on using or trying to use the original pronunciation when speaking English are far more annoying. Even your Spanish language example is fucked because "ll" is pronounced differently depending on which county's/region's Spanish you're speaking. Sometimes is sounds like a "Y" sometimes it sounds kind of like a "J." One time my friend and I were arguing over the pronunciation of "como se llama." I was saying is was "yama" and my friend was saying is was "jama". We asked our buddy Juan Carlos who was right and his answer was, "I teenk you're saying dee same teeng."

I met someone who was trying to tell me that tortilla was pronounced tor til lia...

It's that damn rooster Spanish.

[Mike Oxlong]

Which is completely understandable...as an individual. On the other hand, if you're introducing it as a new item on your menu at your restaurant, wouldn't you think it's worth having the correct pronunciation on the menu? (or just call it Viet-ramen) If you're writing a report about it in the newspaper or reporting on it in the news, wouldn't that 5 secs with google translate be worth it?

I've been to a place in Gifu about 10 years ago that did just that. Vietnam-ramen.

Shoot. Faulty memory. It weren't no pho...

http://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9 ... 1%E3%83%B3

[Russell]

Which is completely understandable...as an individual. On the other hand, if you're introducing it as a new item on your menu at your restaurant, wouldn't you think it's worth having the correct pronunciation on the menu? (or just call it Viet-ramen) If you're writing a report about it in the newspaper or reporting on it in the news, wouldn't that 5 secs with google translate be worth it?

I've been to a place in Gifu about 10 years ago that did just that. Vietnam-ramen.

Shoot. Faulty memory. It weren't no pho...

http://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9 ... 1%E3%83%B3

Maybe they changed their shop's name in order to stop confusing their customers...

[omae mona]

Shoot. Faulty memory. It weren't no pho...

http://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9 ... 1%E3%83%B3

That ain't no "Vietnam Ramen". That's Viet Cong Ramen! (ベトコンラーメン). What a name! Where I come from, I'm not sure a restaurant with that name would last long, though...

[wagyl]

I was looking through youtube to find a suitable clip of レーザー ラモン HG ordering his favourite ethnic beef and noodle dish, but I got thoroughly sick of looking. Remarkably limited talent. Sadly, that is not unusual though.

So, have it in text.

フォー！！！