beware of propaganda

[gaijinzilla]

About seeing only what you want to see or are allowed to see......at salon.com there is an article about what the US viewing public is being shown vis-a-vis the war in Iraq, there is an accompanying piece showing photos not seen on American TV. HOWEVER if any of you are going to check them out I strongly recommend that if you are squeamish DON'T look at the pictures. Actually, even if you aren't a squeamish person, the images are hard to digest. I could only look at the first 2 or 3 and I wish I hadn't.

[GuyJean]

at salon.com there is an article about what the US viewing public is being shown vis-a-vis the war in Iraq, there is an accompanying piece showing photos not seen on American TV.

And where is Salon.com from? The US. I still think there's a wider base, than most countries, to gather news from a variety of sources.

What is it now? 60% of American households have an Internet connection? Although TV still is the main source, I think an increasing number of Americans get information via the Net.

I just thought of something; back to ABC News. They have a great section from time to time comparing what Americans see to what the Arab world sees, and how it's perceived. Does Al Jazira, or the French media do this?.. Actually, a serious question. On NHK, the snippets they show from France are only certain parts of the newscast.

GJ

[Jack]

I DO think Japan, or at least NHK, is good at showing different views.. But only because they buy the news from the list mentioned above.

I would watch Al-Jazeera as well if it was allowed but the Jewish lobby in Canada is keeping Al-Jazeera out because they say it is an anti-semitic news channel.

I don't feel Japan's news is unbiased]Have you ever seen civilian casualties on US networks?

Everyday. I don't know what you're watching..

Bulshit. When and where? I have never seen the footage I see on the French Language news on the US channels.

Well, wear that Canadian pin with pride. That'll show us.

I can confirm to you that Canadian do not like war and do not want to fight. Proud of it, actually. But we do have a media chain here called the National Post and is owned by a prominent Jewish family. NO anti-Israeli coverage is allowed and the paper fired a journalist because he was critical of Israel. Needless to say most mnainstream Canadians do not read that rag anymore but like the US, the news in Canada always has to be pro-Israel or else you don't get to see it.

Media is a powerful tool, but I also think people see only what they want to most of the time.[/quote]

[Jack]

Sorry I can't use that "quote" thing as well as others do so my post above might be difficult to follow.

[GuyJean]

Right, the US news take their government news from from other sources, I see.

You see, there's something in the States that tends not to exist here]Bulshit. When and where?[/quote]
Every morning, around 9:30; ABC news usually has about 10 still photos to reflect on the war. An average of 3 of those are civilian tragedies. They also investigated deeper than any other news agency as to what happened at the market bombing.

Also, Nightline usually at 5:30 pm everday has some good, in-depth stories. Now they're focusing more on the problems that lie ahead; nation-building, who should run Iraq, how, etc.

If anything, I tend to think media tries to 'hype' problems.. Fear and anxiety are great ratings boosters. Gore, death and suffering usually turns people away.

I have never seen the footage I see on the French Language news on the US channels.

Oh, yeah. What's France's stance on this war? Of course they're going to show the horrors, and OF COURSE there will be horrors. It's a fucking war!!

The French, by default, will have much more propaganda ammunition.. It's a bloody war. Guess what - people die.

GJ

[cstaylor]

And how is France handling the Ivory Coast again?

[Jack]

[
The French, by default, will have much more propaganda ammunition.. It's a bloody war. Guess what - people die.

GJ

And hence why I think Americans are moronic. You don't have to have a war and people don't have to die. Most people don't want a war and this Iraqi war is not justified. No reason to have it, do you understand that or I have to say it in French? The only reason the US went to war in Iraq was because of the Israeli lobby to remove a threat to them. Read the Reuters story I posted earlier. Enough said. You fuckers want to kill people as hired guns for other countries then you suffer the fucking consequences like terrorism.

[American Oyaji]

So Jack, answer me this. Yes and no answers please.

Is it right for Saddam to flout international law without consequence?
No.

Was Saddam harboring Al-quaida operatives and traning camps?
Yes.

Was Saddam and his son killing and raping their own citizens?
Yes.

Is Saddam dangerous?
Yes.

Is he a rouge element?
Yes.

Is he a threat to the U.S. due to his terrorist ties?
Hell Yes.

This is a justified war. If this was to have anything to do with Israel, it would cause more Palestinians to blow themselves up. Israel except for the comments of some obscure diplomats have said very little about the war.
Israel had nothing to do with this except to fear reprisal against them.

Shut up about the Jews, Jack. What did they do to you? Absolutely nothing.

In the history of this planet there has never been a more hated/feared/reviled and mistreated group than Jews. If you know of another group, feel free to name them, but you cannot, so keep silent.

Everyone knows that Saddam was being helped by different countries in violation of international law. Saddam needed to be taken out before someone gets REAL helpful and helps him to make some atomic weapons. France and Russia are not beneath this. Look at the facts. France's economy is tied in to Iraqi oil. Russia sells a WHOLE HEAPIN load of weapons to Iraq. Syria is a backdoor nation for Iraq.

The weapons inspections weren't working because the countries who had members on the inspections teams weren't interested in them too much.
France and Russia's objections were purely selfish.

But to sit there and lie to yourself and say it is all about the Jews makes you seem to be the biggest biggot on the Earth because it is so obviously untrue.
Do Jews hold a position of power in the U.S.? Yeah. Is the U.S. pro Israel? Yes.
WHY IS IT AN ISSUE? Lots of other countries are pro this country, or pro that country. Why cant the U.S. be pro Israel? You talk as if it is wrong.

And if it is wrong? Why? Don't bother answering. You cant say why it's wrong because it isnt.

So shut up about the Jews.

Am I Jewish? No. But I hold a deep love and respect for the Jewish people.

So chill out with the racist BS.

[GuyJean]

And hence why I think Americans are moronic.

I've had enough of you.. This is going nowhere.

GJ

[jez]

US media is by no means the most balanced on earth. Neither is French media or any other media. They're all biased in one way or another(though the bbc's pretty good!) The US is by no means the 'freest nation on earth'. Neither is any other country on earth. We're all under the yoke of a bunch of dictators who disguise as democratic leaders. "Manufacturing consent"-ever heard of that?
Jack, you would also do well to separate Jews and Israelis in your mind.

[Resolute Optimist]

Does Al Jazira, or the French media do this?

Absolutely not!!! Please feel free to rename the french tv, "TV Bagdad" or "Al Jazira-sur-Seine".

In the history of this planet there has never been a more hated/feared/reviled and mistreated group than Jews.

Very true in France. It is perfectably acceptable to harbour anti-semitic views. In Paris and elsewhere it is very dangerous to walk around with a kippah. A jewish friend and most of his family are spat on and insulted regulary.

[jez]

Resolute Optimist, where in the midi are you from? I don't get the impression that french radio is pro-Saddam. I listen to France-Inter. Were you talking about them?

[jez]

Everyone knows that Saddam was being helped by different countries in violation of international law.

Including the US. So, they suddenly had a change of heart, and discovered a passion for democracy?Aaawww... :D

[Jack]

So Jack, answer me this. Yes and no answers please.

Is it right for Saddam to flout international law without consequence?
No.

Was Saddam harboring Al-quaida operatives and traning camps?
Yes.

Was Saddam and his son killing and raping their own citizens?
Yes.

Is Saddam dangerous?
Yes.

Is he a rouge element?
Yes.

Is he a threat to the U.S. due to his terrorist ties?
Hell Yes.

This is a justified war. If this was to have anything to do with Israel, it would cause more Palestinians to blow themselves up. Israel except for the comments of some obscure diplomats have said very little about the war.
Israel had nothing to do with this except to fear reprisal against them.

Shut up about the Jews, Jack. What did they do to you? Absolutely nothing.

So shut up about the Jews.

Am I Jewish? No. But I hold a deep love and respect for the Jewish people.

So chill out with the racist BS.

You are so fucking wrong. First point. Saddam was not ignoring international laws more than Israel.

Second, NO Iraq was not harbouring terrorists. Saddam is so afraid of losing power that he would not allow bullies like Osama in his backyard.

Third, Saddam is not killing more of his people than Israel does to Palestinians.

Fourth, Saddam is no danger to the US. NONE Whatsoever and put that in your tiny fucking head.

Saddam has no communist connections. Where the fuck you got that bullshit that he is rouge?

Lastly, he has no terrorist ties. Stop eating the propaganda crap that cpmes out of your govornment.

As to your last point, what have jews done to me? Not much. They want too much to be treated with white gloves. They are preventing me from being able to see Al-Jazeera and they are forcing me to watch their propaganda all the time. Jews are not the only one who suffered in this world. Cambodians, Armenians, Russians, Chinese, Rwandans and on and on.

[Resolute Optimist]

Resolute Optimist, where in the midi are you from? I don't get the impression that french radio is pro-Saddam. I listen to France-Inter. Were you talking about them?

No, I think radio is the only media I haven't been attentive to.
The TV I'm referring to is the state owned channels of course, France 2 and 3, but the others are quite similar.
The program that stuck in my mind was a guy whose name I can't remember, Salam something, an Iraqui documentary maker, tortured in Saddam's prisons, invited to Pujadas' 8 o'clock news. Salam said that the vast majority of Iraquis wanted Saddam out. Pujadas then says "Really? Well we'll turn to our reporter, in *** (sorry can't remember name of liberated village) and ask her what people think, as now they have been liberated they won't be afraid to speak". The reporter says "Well people are still very afraid to talk, when I ask them what they think of Saddam, they make the split throat gesture, suggesting that if they talk, they will die". Pujadas turns towards Salam and says "well, I think we can say that your theory is completely false" !!!! And finished with a "Mr Salam, you are completely "a cote de la realite"...

I'm in the Midi-Pyrenees.

[GuyJean]

They're all biased in one way or another(though the bbc's pretty good!)

That was basically my original point; Each nation's media shows what the people want, and will watch..

I still think, (although I know the US is not the freest nation on earth), that there are generally more sources of information. So maybe the mainstream sees the pro-US propaganda, but there are other, more subtle voices presenting different views.

Do you know what TOTAL freedom is? It's total anarchy! Doing whatever, whenever, however, to whomever is TOTAL freedom.

GJ

[jez]

Absolute Realist, I'd love to see that edition of the 8 o'clock news. Maybe I have been out of France for too long, but it doesn't sound like the kinda comment the presentator of a news edition would make...
I'm from Toulouse, btw.
As for the BBC taking the Iraqi's side, that is definetely nonsense. If anything, I'd say the BBC is also biased in favour of the 'coalition'. However, the BBC still has people like Jeremy Paxman, who is unbiased either way. If being critical of the coalition means being pro-Saddam to you, then, you have obviously been brainwashed.

[jez]

Salam said that the vast majority of Iraquis wanted Saddam out. Pujadas then says "Really? Well we'll turn to our reporter, in *** (sorry can't remember name of liberated village) and ask her what people think, as now they have been liberated they won't be afraid to speak". The reporter says "Well people are still very afraid to talk, when I ask them what they think of Saddam, they make the split throat gesture, suggesting that if they talk, they will die". Pujadas turns towards Salam and says "well, I think we can say that your theory is completely false" !!!! And finished with a "Mr Salam, you are completely "a cote de la realite"...

Please clarify. I mean, if this is true, that guy, 'Salam' was not contradicted by the Irakis in ***. They were simply afraid to talk(according to your account). This, I'm afraid, sounds a little dodgy. [/i]

[jez]

Rumsfeld complains that journalists are doing their job by reporting on the chaos in Baghdad. I can't believe it! The US gvt insisted on going ahead with their war despite worldwide opposition, and it aren't even capable of facing up to it's responsibilities as occupier. Rumsfeld's whining outburst is at best pathetic, at worst propaganda.

[cstaylor]

The US gvt insisted on going ahead with their war despite worldwide opposition, and it aren't even capable of facing up to it's responsibilities as occupier

I didn't know there was a world-wide accepted list of responsibilities for occupation of non-signing members of the Geneva Conventions.
Oops. After figuring out that 'A' means "Accession" and not "Abstain", Iraq as of 1956 was a signatory.

[Steve Bildermann]

I didn't know there was a world-wide accepted list of responsibilities for occupation of non-signing members of the Geneva Conventions.

Well. loot, pillage and burn seems to the General Convention as opposed to the Geneva Convention I suppose.

[cstaylor]

Well. loot, pillage and burn seems to the General Convention as opposed to the Geneva Convention I suppose.

Aren't these looters neighbors of those who detest the looting? Why are they looking to an outside power to police themselves?

Can you imagine the ruckus created if American troops were shown on Arab telelvision shooting looters?

[GuyJean]

Aren't these looters neighbors of those who detest the looting? Why are they looking to an outside power to police themselves?

I was wondering the same thing.. I think restoring water, power, and protecting hospitals should be first on the agenda.. Looting? Who cares. Most of what's being looted are Saddam's palaces and government buildings... Oh, and the German Embassy. Water, power and medicine are much more important.

So where's the UN? Oh, I see. If the UN goes in, it would legitamize the war.. So f*ck those Iraqis because we say f*ck you America. (I'm not that serious, so no need to spout off)

Can you imagine the ruckus created if American troops were shown on Arab telelvision shooting looters?

It's the typical catch 22, like it was in Yugoslavia. 'Why aren't you doing anything?'... Then, 'Why are you doing that?'

GJ

[jez]

Can you imagine the ruckus created if American troops were shown on Arab telelvision shooting looters?

Do you honestly believe the US government cares what the rest of the world thinks?
Stop thinking you are being represented by the US government. I am not represented by the french gvt, even if I happen to be against the war. I don't believe Chirac is against the war because the people of France are. I am not that naive. How about you?

[cstaylor]

Where did I say the American government cared?

[Steve Bildermann]

Most of what's being looted are Saddam's palaces and government buildings

Actually it seems that just about anything is fair game. Sadly hospitals are on the list too.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says two key Baghdad hospitals, and many other smaller ones, have been ransacked, as looting spreads across the capital

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2936721.stm

[GuyJean]

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says two key Baghdad hospitals, and many other smaller ones, have been ransacked, as looting spreads across the capital

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2936721.stm

Don't believe that leftist propaganda! They're stealing medicine to care for their neighbors, since all the doctors were Baathe Party members, and have since fled

Yeah, attacking hospitals is pretty low. It seems like just a couple tanks sitting outside would deter a lot..

GJ

[Resolute Optimist]

Absolute Realist, I'd love to see that edition of the 8 o'clock news. Maybe I have been out of France for too long, but it doesn't sound like the kinda comment the presentator of a news edition would make...

Why thank you for telling me what I didn't see! As you haven't seen the newsreel in question you obviously know better than me what I saw. Please feel free to call France 2 and spend a week in their archives... If you don't believe me then what can I do about that? Nothing much.

My point was that the newreader was trying to use false logic to dismiss anything the guy said. I was shocked about it because until then I didn't think that anyone, let alone a news reader would do that. I can say however that Pujadas is the not the most likeable guy in my books.

How long have you been "out of France" for? Are you French?

I don't even want to begin to think about the point you are trying to make when you call me Absolute Realist...

[American Oyaji]

You are so fucking wrong. First point. Saddam was not ignoring international laws more than Israel.

Second, NO Iraq was not harbouring terrorists. Saddam is so afraid of losing power that he would not allow bullies like Osama in his backyard.

Third, Saddam is not killing more of his people than Israel does to Palestinians.

Fourth, Saddam is no danger to the US. NONE Whatsoever and put that in your tiny fucking head.

Saddam has no communist connections. Where the fuck you got that bullshit that he is rouge?

Lastly, he has no terrorist ties. Stop eating the propaganda crap that cpmes out of your govornment.

As to your last point, what have jews done to me? Not much. They want too much to be treated with white gloves. They are preventing me from being able to see Al-Jazeera and they are forcing me to watch their propaganda all the time. Jews are not the only one who suffered in this world. Cambodians, Armenians, Russians, Chinese, Rwandans and on and on.

Jack. You have some serious reality blinders on boyo.

First point. I never said Saddam was flouting international laws more than Isreal. He has had restraints put on him by the U.N. Security Council for his unprovoked invasion of Kuwait. If you look at the Israel situation. Israel only attacks outside its borders to eliminate threats. As for the way they treat Palestinians, usually Israel is asking for peace but then another suicide bomber comes along and blows up a school cafeteria, or a wedding or something. The truth is that Islam is a hateful religion of war. If Israel did not clamp down on the Palestinians, they would open themselves up for more attacks because the Palestinians aren't doing enough to root out the subversive elements for themselves.

Second point. Al-Qaeda training camps were found in Iraq. Check the news.

Third point. See first point rebuttal. Palestinians won't police themselves. Yasser Arafat isn't really trying for peace at all. 'nuff said.

Fourth point. See second point rebuttal. Anyone who helps and harbors Al-Qaeda will be dealt with harshly. 'nuff said.

Fifth point. I never said he had communist connections. In your haste to bash anything pro Israel, you made something up. I said that he has been assisted by France and Russia since the early 1990s. Someone earlier mentioned that the United States had helped Saddam. Yes, in a misguided attempt to get Saddams assistance. But at the time there were NO security council resolutions in place. Also, if France and Russia got more helpful and behind the scenes helped him develop a nuclear weapon, or if he developed it on his own, he could give it to Al-Qaeda or attack someone else. He did it before, he could do it again. And anyone who will use chemical attacks on his own citizens has got to go.

As to your last paragraph? Poppycock and rubbish. How are JEWS forcing anything down your throat and how are THEY preventing you from seeing Al-jazeera? You live in Japan, don't you? I bet it's pretty difficult for everyone to see it there. As for seeing Al-Jazeera on the net, it was a hacker attack. Or are you omnipotent and can see the little Jewish hacker with the yamacah (sp?) on his head sitting in a basement someplace with a star of david flag on his wall with slogans saying "death to all gentiles" while hacking away in cyberspace?

Grow up Jacko. You'll live longer.

[jez]

Sorry RESOLUTE OPTIMIST, I simply mis-typed...
I didn't actually say that you didn't see what you say you saw(...). SImply, the way you presented the event, I can only come to the conclusion that Pujadas, a)has a strange kind of logic, and b)he wasn't really acting as a norman news presentor should(I've never heard even Jeremy Paxman-my journalistic hero-accuse a guest of being 'a cote de la plaque'). So, as I said, I wish I'd seen that programme. Perhaps Pujadas really is an idiot, or perhaps you misinterpreted what happened. I don't know, but I can say, that your description was pretty vague.
Anyway, I find it hard to believe that the 'Service Public', however crap it is, could be described as being pro-Saddam.
I am indeed French, but haven't lived in France for 8 years(been home of course).
I'm off to watch 'Le Journal televise' on the web...