beware of propaganda

[jez]

bikkle,
Thanks for the links.
I'd say that most of the the content I've seen so far on these/other links isn't more or less propaganda than european media outlets(of course, I ain't seen FOX...).I do feel, however, that the way the news is presented, is very superficial. Apart from C-SPAN, there was no live news, and the videos were short and succinct. Also, the tone was very dramatic, and the speech fast. The impression I get is of at best a very commercial media. At worst...well, as DJEB did, I would refer you to "Manufacturing Consent".
Perhaps it is simply a cultural difference...

[DJEB]

Snap snap snap...
the links to radio4all don't work. How does one get there, wot wot?

They had crappy servers at Radio 4 All, so it seems they have changed... to other crappy servers.

The new link is http://mbanna.radio4all.net/pub/archive5/mp3_3/ug113-hour1mix.mp3 [high fi]
or
http://mbanna.radio4all.net/pub/archive5/mp3_3/ug113-hour1lo.mp3 [low fi]
Scott Ritter's section comes on at 4 minutes 48 seconds in.

[jez]

f*cking hell! I dreamt of Michael Moore...

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

DJEB,

I waded through that asinine pile of horseshit posted above. I came away wondering how an individual could be so devoid of common sense and can only imagine that your father either beat you or abadoned you. You will say what relevance is this. The relevance is your thought process is so juvenile that it is laughable. So is your knowledge of basic facts. You begin your Ted Kacyznski like manifesto with a meandering slander of George Bush. Thanks for letting us know that you know nothing about how US Presidents are elected. The popular vote has never controlled. Furthermore, the election was essentially a tie (if you are going by the popular vote) and the nation is very largely supportive of George W. Thank God we didn't get that imbecile Gore. But what does any of this mean to the questions of the day. Answer: Nothing.

In spite of this you blather forth so much diarrhea that even someone as insane as you cannot possibly believe anyone is listening. Also, found your digging for quotes from Iraqis voicing their anti-US feelings quite amusing. I have seen and heard far more believable quotes and expressions of gratitude from publications that don't wear their leftist politics so openly.

Also, what is this nonsense about the New Dealers and the occupation of Japan. Roosevelt was dead by the time the war ended and the real reason Japan pulled out of its economic misery was the Korean war. Read a fucking book will you.

Lastly, this temporary occupation of Iraq and the passification of their military is already proceeding quite well. You moronic non-Americans who have lived under the US security umbrella for your entire lives (and, in your case DJEB for the entire lives of your parents) need to stand back and watch how this is done. Maybe then you will become responsible pro-active members of the world community.

Lastly, clearly you know nothing about the UN and how poorly this rag tag collection of third worlders has functioned through most of its history. For the big picture it is a non-starter. How the fuck does even an imbecile like you think that a collection of nations who compete with each other will smoothly come together and make important decisions affecting world peace.

Oh, yeah, the fact that Russian documents turned up today indicating that they made an arrangement to leak military information to the Iraqis (thereby prolonging this war and the misery of the Iraqi people) evidences that the Russians are really trustworthy allies. Gee, I am glad that the Russians (I won't even talk about France) have veto power. Nope, sorry, the US will be going its own way and frankly, the next bombs we drop should be on Paris.

Okay, now it's your turn. Send me another diatribe and reveal your complete demonstration of pig headed obstinacy that must be a deep seated reaction against authority figures. Sonny, I don't know what your daddy did to you but not everybody's "daddy" (i.e., the US) gets it wrong.

We are the most humane and forward thinking world power the world has ever known.

[ramchop]

Is he a rouge element?
Yes.

Saddam has no communist connections. Where the fuck you got that bullshit that he is rouge?

Fifth point. I never said he had communist connections. In your haste to bash anything pro Israel, you made something up. I said that he has been assisted by France and Russia since the early 1990s.

Ah, the delights of a simple spelling mistake.

[DJEB]

I waded through that asinine pile of horseshit posted above.

Stunning rebuttal. What was "horseshit? I posted something that is factually incorrect? What would that be.

It hasn't escaped my notice that the less of an argument you have, the more expletives you use.

I came away wondering how an individual could be so devoid of common sense and can only imagine that your father either beat you or abadoned you.

Still waiting for relevance to the issue at hand...

You will say what relevance is this.

Of course. That would be the logical question.

The relevance is your thought process is so juvenile that it is laughable. So is your knowledge of basic facts.

Still waiting for substance...

You begin your Ted Kacyznski like manifesto with a meandering slander of George Bush.

Slander? I quoted the U.S. Government. Take your issues up with them.

Thanks for letting us know that you know nothing about how US Presidents are elected. The popular vote has never controlled.

When I say Gore got more votes, I mean more votes in Florida. This according to a recount tallied after Bush was selected (remember that the Supreme Court stopped the counting and declared Bush the winner).

Furthermore, the election was essentially a tie (if you are going by the popular vote) and the nation is very largely supportive of George W.

Like they were supportive of Bush I during the first Gulf War.

Thank God we didn't get that imbecile Gore. But what does any of this mean to the questions of the day. Answer: Nothing.

Indeed. It was obviously not my point to say otherwise. I was merely responding to your comment that "there are a lot of countries whose leaders should be tossed out."

In spite of this you blather forth so much diarrhea that even someone as insane as you cannot possibly believe anyone is listening.

Still waiting for substance...

Also, found your digging for quotes from Iraqis voicing their anti-US feelings quite amusing. I have seen and heard far more believable quotes and expressions of gratitude from publications that don't wear their leftist politics so openly.

So you are saying the reporters lied? Nice ad hominem attempt, by the way.

Also, what is this nonsense about the New Dealers and the occupation of Japan. Roosevelt was dead by the time the war ended and the real reason Japan pulled out of its economic misery was the Korean war. Read a fucking book will you.

There is too little here to make a comment on. I'm not sure what your claim is regarding Japan's development policy. At any rate, my point was correct, the recycled Reaganites of today are not the same crew that were in power after WWII. The economic policies of these two different groups are very disparate.

Lastly, this temporary occupation of Iraq and the passification of their military is already proceeding quite well.

So far, I have a different view. Things are still very early and I hope they will work out to be as rosy as you say.

You moronic non-Americans who have lived under the US security umbrella for your entire lives (and, in your case DJEB for the entire lives of your parents) need to stand back and watch how this is done. Maybe then you will become responsible pro-active members of the world community.

(My parents were much older than you think.) Pro-active is Newspeak for invade?

Lastly, clearly you know nothing about the UN and how poorly this rag tag collection of third worlders has functioned through most of its history. For the big picture it is a non-starter. How the fuck does even an imbecile like you think that a collection of nations who compete with each other will smoothly come together and make important decisions affecting world peace.

As far as not knowing how the UN functions, I have studied and read up on its founding, operation, and history. I realise that you don't care about this]Oh, yeah, the fact that Russian documents turned up today indicating that they made an arrangement to leak military information to the Iraqis (thereby prolonging this war and the misery of the Iraqi people) evidences that the Russians are really trustworthy allies. Gee, I am glad that the Russians (I won't even talk about France) have veto power. [/quote]
I would sincerely like to see this. Could you provide a link (I'll look for it at the BBC)?

Nope, sorry, the US will be going its own way and frankly, the next bombs we drop should be on Paris.

Charming. So you are all for war crimes and the mass extermination of people? Lovely.

Okay, now it's your turn. Send me another diatribe and reveal your complete demonstration of pig headed obstinacy that must be a deep seated reaction against authority figures.

I realise that I am fallible. Just show me that I am and I will accept that. To steal from JM Keynes, "When the facts prove me wrong, I change my mind." So far, I just received name-calling.

Sonny, I don't know what your daddy did to you but not everybody's "daddy" (i.e., the US) gets it wrong.

We are the most humane and forward thinking world power the world has ever known.

Which is no doubt why you say "the US will be going its own way and frankly, the next bombs we drop should be on Paris."

[DJEB]

f*cking hell! I dreamt of Michael Moore...

Well, he is dreamy.

[jez]

In spite of this you blather forth so much diarrhea that even someone as insane as you cannot possibly believe anyone is listening.

Still waiting for substance...

diarrhea...substance...

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

I waded through that asinine pile of horseshit posted above.

Stunning rebuttal. What was "horseshit? I posted something that is factually incorrect? What would that be.

[/quote]

What would that be????? Sonny, your off point. The war, except for some scurmishes with NONIRAQIs drawn in from other states. The anti-war movement is completely discredited. You know nothing. There were no mass civilian casualties, the Iraqis themselves support the US and its military intervention including people who have pointed us in the direction of the POWs. Clearly you have not been listening. Don't they cover this stuff on those communist websites you read (communism is more dead and discredited than Saddam --- Hello!!!!!!!!!!!).

It hasn't escaped my notice that the less of an argument you have, the more expletives you use.

I am sure you have frustrated many with your complete inability to grasp even simple concepts. Like, THE WAR IS OVER. Okay, go quote me something from Tommy Franks saying it isn't....dumbass.

I came away wondering how an individual could be so devoid of common sense and can only imagine that your father either beat you or abadoned you.

Still waiting for relevance to the issue at hand...

It is relevant because it is true. You need help sonny.

You will say what relevance is this.

Of course. That would be the logical question.

Okay, son, stay in denial. Clearly you have issues. You college boy lefties generally are angry at mommy and daddy. Well, whatever, nobody listens to you kids anyway (including me after this post).

The relevance is your thought process is so juvenile that it is laughable. So is your knowledge of basic facts.

Still waiting for substance...

Okay....your assertion that President Bush is not a properly elected President for one. It has never been the popular vote. Go back to fouth grade. That is where we learn that in general

You begin your Ted Kacyznski like manifesto with a meandering slander of George Bush.

Slander? I quoted the U.S. Government. Take your issues up with them.

I believe you indicated he was an "ass" and was not properly elected. Wrong on both counts (and you are the ass).

In spite of this you blather forth so much diarrhea that even someone as insane as you cannot possibly believe anyone is listening.

Still waiting for substance...

Also, found your digging for quotes from Iraqis voicing their anti-US feelings quite amusing. I have seen and heard far more believable quotes and expressions of gratitude from publications that don't wear their leftist politics so openly.

So you are saying the reporters lied? Nice ad hominem attempt, by the way.

No, sonny, I am saying look at the forest! (as DJEB collides head first into a single tree).

Also, what is this nonsense about the New Dealers and the occupation of Japan. Roosevelt was dead by the time the war ended and the real reason Japan pulled out of its economic misery was the Korean war. Read a fucking book will you.

There is too little here to make a comment on. I'm not sure what your claim is regarding Japan's development policy. At any rate, my point was correct, the recycled Reaganites of today are not the same crew that were in power after WWII. The economic policies of these two different groups are very disparate.

Here is the point, sonny, it demonstrates you know nothing about even basic Japanese economic histrory. Lack of knowledge is a theme with you and this is an example (so stop asking for examples).

Lastly, this temporary occupation of Iraq and the passification of their military is already proceeding quite well.

So far, I have a different view. Things are still very early and I hope they will work out to be as rosy as you say.

Glad to see you are beginning to backpeddle. Your backpeddling will continue. We know what we are doing. You are a moron from the UK public education system.

You moronic non-Americans who have lived under the US security umbrella for your entire lives (and, in your case DJEB for the entire lives of your parents) need to stand back and watch how this is done. Maybe then you will become responsible pro-active members of the world community.

(My parents were much older than you think.) Pro-active is Newspeak for invade?

No Eurofag, proactive is get off your ass and slap down the dictators before they come after you. You could have learned this from WW2. But some people never learn. Yeah, go ahead and think of it as invade.

]Lastly, clearly you know nothing about the UN and how poorly this rag tag collection of third worlders has functioned through most of its history. For the big picture it is a non-starter. How the fuck does even an imbecile like you think that a collection of nations who compete with each other will smoothly come together and make important decisions affecting world peace.

As far as not knowing how the UN functions, I have studied and read up on its founding, operation, and history. I realise that you don't care about this]


Oh, goody, why don't you tell us how effective the UN has been in its history and how it has been so effective in finding diplomatic solutions in dealing with dictators, etc. Yes, the UN did a great job in Yugoslavia, is doing a bang up job in N. Korea (Kim is all ears). Yes, yes, please tell us all about how unusual it is for a world powers to not agree in the UN Security council.

Oh, yeah, the fact that Russian documents turned up today indicating that they made an arrangement to leak military information to the Iraqis (thereby prolonging this war and the misery of the Iraqi people) evidences that the Russians are really trustworthy allies. Gee, I am glad that the Russians (I won't even talk about France) have veto power.

I would sincerely like to see this. Could you provide a link (I'll look for it at the BBC)?

It was all over the news this morning. Clearly you have ample surfing time.

[jez]

In spite of this you blather forth so much diarrhea that even someone as insane as you cannot possibly believe anyone is listening.

I saw no link whatsoever in your response to DJEB's impressive research. I repeat my question: does the truth come to you out of thin air?

We are the most humane and forward thinking world power the world has ever known.

talk about parallel worlds...

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

In spite of this you blather forth so much diarrhea that even someone as insane as you cannot possibly believe anyone is listening.

I saw no link whatsoever in your response to DJEB's impressive research. I repeat my question: does the truth come to you out of thin air?

We are the most humane and forward thinking world power the world has ever known.

talk about parallel worlds...

Impressive reseach.....uhhhh.... based on his "impressive" research, I am to believe that we don't have the support of the Iraqi people. We have the support of the Iraqi people and they have been cheering us on since it became clear Saddam is not going to come back to haunt them. Please, sonny #2, I beg of you to pull your head out of your ass (where DJEB's impressive research put it).

Oh, God, these kids today. Please, tell me that you are not American.

[jez]

Here is the point, sonny, it demonstrates you know nothing about even basic Japanese economic histrory. Lack of knowledge is a theme with you and this is an example (so stop asking for examples).

So, why don't you tell us what the truth is? Give us some links, please.

Oh, yeah, the fact that Russian documents turned up today indicating that they made an arrangement to leak military information to the Iraqis (thereby prolonging this war and the misery of the Iraqi people) evidences that the Russians are really trustworthy allies. Gee, I am glad that the Russians (I won't even talk about France) have veto power.

I would sincerely like to see this. Could you provide a link (I'll look for it at the BBC)?

It was all over the news this morning. Clearly you have ample surfing time.

Not much on the beeb. Google has something about Russia denying "helping to train Iraqi intelligence". Ever heard of 'innocent until proven guilty?'

[jez]

Impressive reseach.....uhhhh.... based on his "impressive" research, I am to believe that we don't have the support of the Iraqi people. We have the support of the Iraqi people and they have been cheering us on since it became clear Saddam is not going to come back to haunt them.

I think there was more than that(above)in your original rebuttal of DJEB.
Anyway, still waiting for hard evidence. Shall I help you? One word: Links.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Impressive reseach.....uhhhh.... based on his "impressive" research, I am to believe that we don't have the support of the Iraqi people. We have the support of the Iraqi people and they have been cheering us on since it became clear Saddam is not going to come back to haunt them.

I think there was more than that(above)in your original rebuttal of DJEB.
Anyway, still waiting for hard evidence. Shall I help you? One word: Links.

You jabbering idiot. Watch the fucking news and read the fucking newspaper. Links.... You fucking 15 year olds and your links to obscure lefty publications. Run out and play will ya.

[jez]

You jabbering idiot. Watch the fucking news and read the fucking newspaper. Links.... You fucking 15 year olds and your links to obscure lefty publications. Run out and play will ya.

I do watch and read the news. However, I wouldn't even trust the BBC to give me the whole truth. Sorry, mate, that's not enough.
Well, I must admit I find it strange that you believe insults to be more convincing than quotes, links, and, well, proof.
BTW, is the US gvt an "obscure lefty publication"?

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

You jabbering idiot. Watch the fucking news and read the fucking newspaper. Links.... You fucking 15 year olds and your links to obscure lefty publications. Run out and play will ya.

I do watch and read the news. However, I wouldn't even trust the BBC to give me the whole truth. Sorry, mate, that's not enough.
Well, I must admit I find it strange that you believe insults to be more convincing than quotes, links, and, well, proof.
BTW, is the US gvt an "obscure lefty publication"?

Oh, a deep thinking Australian. That's scary. If you note above, DJEBs, quotes from the Iraqis are mainly from publications that are Leftist. Also, the links to the presidential election DO NOT state that President Bush was not properly elected. It states that there are numerous problems in Florida but only and ass believes Bush created that mess down there.

Get real.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Lastly, you foreigners really piss me off when you try to imply that the US ever was a "supporter" of Saddam. Yeah, when we were confronting an even crazier maniac in the Ayatollah Khomeini we chose Saddam but that is not because we support him. We chose a fucking side to counterbalance an even more dangerous enemy.

Your idiocy knows no bounds.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Lastly, you foreigners really piss me off when you try to imply that the US ever was a "supporter" of Saddam. Yeah, when we were confronting an even crazier maniac in the Ayatollah Khomeini we chose Saddam but that is not because we support him. We chose a fucking side to counterbalance an even more dangerous enemy.

Your idiocy knows no bounds.

Also, just to absolutely spell it out for you DJEB, here again is why your pathetic knowledge of history bites you in the ass. You don't know (or fail to recognize the importance) of the US-Iran problem and how that led the US to arm Saddam.

Also, you raise the point of the UK's history in Iraq and how the US will allegedly be going down the same path. WRONG. We are not the UK. We won't be doing what you imbeciles did.

[DJEB]

I waded through that asinine pile of horseshit posted above.

Stunning rebuttal. What was "horseshit? I posted something that is factually incorrect? What would that be.

What would that be????? Sonny, your off point.

It is not off point to ask for a logical rebuttal. It is exactly the point. So far, it has been name calling.

The war, except for some scurmishes with NONIRAQIs drawn in from other states. The anti-war movement is completely discredited.

The war being essentially over does not dicredit the anti-war movement. This is plain. To say otherwise is to say that they would only be right if the U.S. lost the war. The anti-war message never claimed it was against the war because the U.S. would lose.

You know nothing. There were no mass civilian casualties, the Iraqis themselves support the US and its military intervention including people who have pointed us in the direction of the POWs.

I have not claimed that there were mass civilian casualties. I was and still am very concerned about warnings issued by the World Food Programme and various NGOs. By going from reports in the mainstream media (always using at least two sources) the civilian body count in Iraq stands at a minimum of 1368 and a maximum of 1621 at this point in time. See http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm for details. These were 1368 too many.

As for Iraqis pointing out the direction of POWs, I haven't read this, but I have no reason to doubt it. The Ba'ath regime (which in its own words "came to power on a CIA train," acording to Ali Saleh Sa'adi, Baath Party secretary general) is much hated in Iraq. I have never claimed otherwise. If you were to glean anything from the quotes I provided, it should have been that hatred of Saddam does not equal love of occupation.

Clearly you have not been listening. Don't they cover this stuff on those communist websites you read (communism is more dead and discredited than Saddam --- Hello!!!!!!!!!!!).

This is a text book ad hominem. If you don't know what that means, look it up. I read all kinds of websites, including libertarian, which is just about as anti-communist as you can get. If you think such attacks are helping your case, you are wrong.

It hasn't escaped my notice that the less of an argument you have, the more expletives you use.

I am sure you have frustrated many with your complete inability to grasp even simple concepts. Like, THE WAR IS OVER. Okay, go quote me something from Tommy Franks saying it isn't....dumbass.

So, in response to my comment on your use of expletives, you post a non sequitur and more expletives. Amazing.

I came away wondering how an individual could be so devoid of common sense and can only imagine that your father either beat you or abadoned you.

Still waiting for relevance to the issue at hand...

It is relevant because it is true. You need help sonny.

Ad hominems are, by definition, not relevant.

You will say what relevance is this.

Of course. That would be the logical question.

Okay, son, stay in denial. Clearly you have issues. You college boy lefties generally are angry at mommy and daddy. Well, whatever, nobody listens to you kids anyway (including me after this post).

It hasn't escaped me that you have yet to show why my post was "asinine pile of horseshit". Drop your emotive rants and stick to issues of relevance, please.

The relevance is your thought process is so juvenile that it is laughable. So is your knowledge of basic facts.

Still waiting for substance...

Okay....your assertion that President Bush is not a properly elected President for one. It has never been the popular vote. Go back to fouth grade. That is where we learn that in general

Reread my post. The issue was cheating. It was not my main point that Gore got more votes in Florida than Bush (he did). That was an additional point.

You begin your Ted Kacyznski like manifesto with a meandering slander of George Bush.

Slander? I quoted the U.S. Government. Take your issues up with them.

I believe you indicated he was an "ass" and was not properly elected. Wrong on both counts (and you are the ass).

I did indeed say he was an ass. That does not amount to slander.

In spite of this you blather forth so much diarrhea that even someone as insane as you cannot possibly believe anyone is listening.

Still waiting for substance...

Also, found your digging for quotes from Iraqis voicing their anti-US feelings quite amusing. I have seen and heard far more believable quotes and expressions of gratitude from publications that don't wear their leftist politics so openly.

So you are saying the reporters lied? Nice ad hominem attempt, by the way.

No, sonny, I am saying look at the forest! (as DJEB collides head first into a single tree).

My response (go back and read it) was to your comment to Jack. You ask him were he got the idea that Iraqis feel that the U.S. is attacking them. I posted a response regarding how he might have got that idea. As for what I think the Iraqi opinion is, see above.

Here is the point, sonny, it demonstrates you know nothing about even basic Japanese economic histrory. Lack of knowledge is a theme with you and this is an example (so stop asking for examples).

I know a fair deal of the economic history of Japan in terms of development policy. You assert I don't. Whatever. I know what I know. You have yet to do anything other than make assertions. If you have a point to make, make it and prove it. Don't waste time calling me names.

Lastly, this temporary occupation of Iraq and the passification of their military is already proceeding quite well.

So far, I have a different view. Things are still very early and I hope they will work out to be as rosy as you say.

Glad to see you are beginning to backpeddle. Your backpeddling will continue. We know what we are doing. You are a moron from the UK public education system.

I would love to see you make a logical demostration that I am backpeddling here. That would mean that I would be against a positive outcome in Iraq. Good luck proving that. Also, I am not British.

You moronic non-Americans who have lived under the US security umbrella for your entire lives (and, in your case DJEB for the entire lives of your parents) need to stand back and watch how this is done. Maybe then you will become responsible pro-active members of the world community.

(My parents were much older than you think.) Pro-active is Newspeak for invade?

No Eurofag, proactive is get off your ass and slap down the dictators before they come after you. You could have learned this from WW2. But some people never learn. Yeah, go ahead and think of it as invade.

Oh. More name-calling. Surprise, surprise. Also, I am not European.

]Lastly, clearly you know nothing about the UN and how poorly this rag tag collection of third worlders has functioned through most of its history. For the big picture it is a non-starter. How the fuck does even an imbecile like you think that a collection of nations who compete with each other will smoothly come together and make important decisions affecting world peace.

As far as not knowing how the UN functions, I have studied and read up on its founding, operation, and history. I realise that you don't care about this]

Oh, goody, why don't you tell us how effective the UN has been in its history and how it has been so effective in finding diplomatic solutions in dealing with dictators, etc. Yes, the UN did a great job in Yugoslavia, is doing a bang up job in N. Korea (Kim is all ears). Yes, yes, please tell us all about how unusual it is for a world powers to not agree in the UN Security council.

I'm not going to get suckered into some red herring. You want to know about UN history - you look it up. http://www.un.org

Oh, yeah, the fact that Russian documents turned up today indicating that they made an arrangement to leak military information to the Iraqis (thereby prolonging this war and the misery of the Iraqi people) evidences that the Russians are really trustworthy allies. Gee, I am glad that the Russians (I won't even talk about France) have veto power.

I would sincerely like to see this. Could you provide a link (I'll look for it at the BBC)?

It was all over the news this morning. Clearly you have ample surfing time.

So, no, you will not provide a link. I checked the BBC. There is nothing there. This is your assertion, you are the one with the responsibility of burden of proof. "All over the news this morning" is not an acceptable source.

[DJEB]

Impressive reseach.....uhhhh.... based on his "impressive" research, I am to believe that we don't have the support of the Iraqi people. We have the support of the Iraqi people and they have been cheering us on since it became clear Saddam is not going to come back to haunt them.

I think there was more than that(above)in your original rebuttal of DJEB.
Anyway, still waiting for hard evidence. Shall I help you? One word: Links.

You jabbering idiot. Watch the fucking news and read the fucking newspaper. Links.... You fucking 15 year olds and your links to obscure lefty publications. Run out and play will ya.

So the answer is, no, you will not provide any evidence for your assertions.

[cliffy]

Lastly, you foreigners really piss me off when you try to imply that the US ever was a "supporter" of Saddam. Yeah, when we were confronting an even crazier maniac in the Ayatollah Khomeini we chose Saddam but that is not because we support him. We chose a fucking side to counterbalance an even more dangerous enemy.

Your idiocy knows no bounds.

do you even check what you write? Or do you just count the profanities,insults and PARAGRAPHS of abuse you seem to think counts for reasoned debate? :P :P :P

Another Aussie to infuriate and stimulate your bile production

[DJEB]

Oh, a deep thinking Australian.

You always make assuptions. And you are always wrong. I know Jez. He is not Australian. I also know that you will never correctly assume his nationality.

hat's scary. If you note above, DJEBs, quotes from the Iraqis are mainly from publications that are Leftist.

Not that your ad hominem is relevant, but they are not leftist publications for the most part. Most of what I posted was from mainstream sources. As for the alternative press, the sources i used are reliable. If not, prove otherwise.

Also, the links to the presidential election DO NOT state that President Bush was not properly elected. It states that there are numerous problems in Florida but only and ass believes Bush created that mess down there.

No, it was Jeb Bush. Watch the BBC video.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

The war, except for some scurmishes with NONIRAQIs drawn in from other states. The anti-war movement is completely discredited.

The war being essentially over does not dicredit the anti-war movement. This is plain. To say otherwise is to say that they would only be right if the U.S. lost the war. The anti-war message never claimed it was against the war because the U.S. would lose.

There is no other word for this but "stupid." The anti war crusade has been discredited because you folks never understood that the Iraqis themselves want us there. It is their opinion not your opinion that matters. Well, you missed the boat completely again but at least your record is unbroken.

You know nothing. There were no mass civilian casualties, the Iraqis themselves support the US and its military intervention including people who have pointed us in the direction of the POWs.

I have not claimed that there were mass civilian casualties. I was and still am very concerned about warnings issued by the World Food Programme and various NGOs. By going from reports in the mainstream media (always using at least two sources) the civilian body count in Iraq stands at a minimum of 1368 and a maximum of 1621 at this point in time. See http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm for details. These were 1368 too many.

Yeah, you're right again. We should have just reasoned with Saddam & Co. We should have just asked him to give it up. No reason to expect he wouldn't listen to the reasoning of an 24 year old public educated UK schoolboy (this is not an insult]

The relevance is your thought process is so juvenile that it is laughable. So is your knowledge of basic facts.

Still waiting for substance...[/quote]
[/quote]

READ my posts. You don't know or cannot recognize the importance of the US - Iran conflict as the basis for the US temporary support of Saddam.

Okay....your assertion that President Bush is not a properly elected President for one. It has never been the popular vote. Go back to fouth grade. That is where we learn that in general

Reread my post. The issue was cheating. It was not my main point that Gore got more votes in Florida than Bush (he did). That was an additional point.

Reread your own links genius. Nothing there inidicates that George Bush cheated. Only that the idiots running the Fla elections are using antiquated, inadequate systems. You take this and run to the conclusion that GW engineered it. UNBELIEVABLE (no, with you this is believable).


Also, thanks for not responding at all about the long term problems with the UN. Thanks for making my point that it is just a pathetic joke to state that the UN has been some smooth functioning organ of international legitimacy. It isn't folks.

Also, you want a fucking link to the Russia spying. Here it is: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/13/sprj.irq.russia.spy/index.html

furthermore the Telegraph broke this story. That's one of your rags isn't it?

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

and finally DJEB just kiss me on the ad hominem.

Well, it is difficult to admit you have been wrong and have been duped by the anti-war folks. They just got it wrong. You need to move on.

[DJEB]

[DJEB]

Lastly, you foreigners really piss me off when you try to imply that the US ever was a "supporter" of Saddam. Yeah, when we were confronting an even crazier maniac in the Ayatollah Khomeini we chose Saddam but that is not because we support him. We chose a fucking side to counterbalance an even more dangerous enemy.

Your idiocy knows no bounds.

Also, just to absolutely spell it out for you DJEB, here again is why your pathetic knowledge of history bites you in the ass. You don't know (or fail to recognize the importance) of the US-Iran problem and how that led the US to arm Saddam.

Also, you raise the point of the UK's history in Iraq and how the US will allegedly be going down the same path. WRONG. We are not the UK. We won't be doing what you imbeciles did.

Then the U.S. needs to make an autonomous Shia State (not likely) and an autonomous Kurdish state. They are already trying to halt the latter.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Why don't you summarize what the reasons were for the US support of Iraq. Keep it to one brief paragraph. I don't have time to wade through a book of billowing nonsense. Keep it brief and on point.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Catch you tomorrow!

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Okay one more:

DJEB, the following link, for those who come stomach reading DJEB's meandering books, indicated that the US would NOT license 5 chemicals that could be used in the production of chemical weapons. Furthermore it indicated that the US was considering selling the base chemicals to BOTH Iran and Iraq.

My God.

[DJEB]

There is no other word for this but "stupid." The anti war crusade has been discredited because you folks never understood that the Iraqis themselves want us there. It is their opinion not your opinion that matters. Well, you missed the boat completely again but at least your record is unbroken.

They did want to be rid of the Ba'ath regime, as I said. They don't want occupation. Also, the attack is illegal under U.S. and international law as I pointed out. And just to be clear, I am still against the war. There were other options available. But the claim that the war is just is yours, thus you are the one with burden of proof (hint: post hoc arguments like saying the Iraqis love us according to CNN are not sufficient).

You know nothing. There were no mass civilian casualties, the Iraqis themselves support the US and its military intervention including people who have pointed us in the direction of the POWs.

I have not claimed that there were mass civilian casualties. I was and still am very concerned about warnings issued by the World Food Programme and various NGOs. By going from reports in the mainstream media (always using at least two sources) the civilian body count in Iraq stands at a minimum of 1368 and a maximum of 1621 at this point in time. See http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm for details. These were 1368 too many.

Yeah, you're right again. We should have just reasoned with Saddam & Co. We should have just asked him to give it up. No reason to expect he wouldn't listen to the reasoning of an 24 year old public educated UK schoolboy (this is not an insult]
See directly above. And again, I am not British and am not 24. Why do you insist on making yourself look the fool?

The relevance is your thought process is so juvenile that it is laughable. So is your knowledge of basic facts.

Still waiting for substance...

READ my posts. You don't know or cannot recognize the importance of the US - Iran conflict as the basis for the US temporary support of Saddam.

See my above post regarding this. As for your posts, honestly, there has only been vacuous assertions.

Okay....your assertion that President Bush is not a properly elected President for one. It has never been the popular vote. Go back to fouth grade. That is where we learn that in general

Reread my post. The issue was cheating. It was not my main point that Gore got more votes in Florida than Bush (he did). That was an additional point.

Reread your own links genius. Nothing there inidicates that George Bush cheated. Only that the idiots running the Fla elections are using antiquated, inadequate systems. You take this and run to the conclusion that GW engineered it. UNBELIEVABLE (no, with you this is believable).

I invite you to do the same - particularly the BBC video.

Also, thanks for not responding at all about the long term problems with the UN. Thanks for making my point that it is just a pathetic joke to state that the UN has been some smooth functioning organ of international legitimacy. It isn't folks.

As I pointed out, it was a red herring. Look that up if you don't know what it means.

Also, you want a fucking link to the Russia spying. Here it is: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/13/sprj.irq.russia.spy/index.html

furthermore the Telegraph broke this story. That's one of your rags isn't it?

Thanks for the link. I'll have a thorough reading of it. I can tell you now that I'm sure it will do nothing to give legitimacy to American Oyagi's assertion that Russia would give Iraq nuclear weapons.