did I miss something?

[jez]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2937464.stm
Is the Vatican in the EU?

[ramchop]

Are you saying that only members of a club have the right to comment? That's very elitist of you.

[jez]

so you think Vatican comments on who should be allowed into the EU should take up valuable air time?

[jez]

do you hear Switzerland making such comments? If it did, would they be taken seriously?

[ramchop]

> 175 million Catholics in Europe. Whatever your view of religion's place in politics (and tell me a country in the world where religion has no influence) their opinion is always going to be given more air time than the Swiss.

[jez]

The Vatican is a STATE. Surely they can welcome those Catholics who think their religion is so important. Religion in most european countries is separated from the state(to varying degrees). Therefore comments regarding the EU(with a religious connotation) coming from a RELIGIOUS state, which isn't even in the EU,are, in my opinion, misplaced. I'm sure you're right, that the opinions of the Pope matter more to certain people/politicians than those of the Swiss. My question is: Do you find that acceptable? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but everyone also has a duty to speak out.

[katakori]

switzerland should be entitled to comment and veto : they do take care of the wealth of most rich people in EU states AND of those in the states that are not in the EU yet

[ramchop]

I'm sure you're right, that the opinions of the Pope matter more to certain people/politicians than those of the Swiss. My question is: Do you find that acceptable?

I'm sure you don't disagree with freedom of speech, so you can't disagree that the Vatican has a right to voice its opinions. What are you advocating? Censorship of religious views in the media?

[jez]

I'm sure you don't disagree with freedom of speech, so you can't disagree that the Vatican has a right to voice its opinions. What are you advocating? Censorship of religious views in the media?

a)I'd like you to point to where I advocated censoring freedom of speech.
b)I'm trying to bring people's attention to something I believe to be an incongruity:the Vatican trying to tell the EU how to conduct it's affairs.
c)if you believe the press represents freedom of speech...you're joking,right? I'm not for shutting the press up, but I'm for checking alternative sources of news, rather than simply the majors. Still, this does not really relate to our subject. My critiscism was aimed at the Vatican, not the media.[/quote]

[ramchop]

[jez]

Hang on a minute. Do you actually think it was an innocent opinion on the part of the Vatican? Not a religious leader trying to interfere and influence secular institutions he does not even belong to? I would be pretty pissed off if my life was influenced by the Pope. I'm afraid the old man is listened to more than we may like. I'm sure he has some good things to say, like pursue peace, not war. The problem is, that he represents a religious institution, that should not interfere in secular politics. If he wants to voice a personal opinion on secular matters, he should do it in the same way 'normal' citizens or secular politicians do.

[Resolute Optimist]

The Vatican has always given it's opinions on world affairs, and being anchored in Europe it has it's rights like anyone to express it's views on whether Turkey should be part of the EU or not. To what extent the Vatican's opinions will influence the final decision... I doubt it'll be down to them. However I think it's legitimate to raise the question (even though they did a little more than raise it) of what makes Europe. Is it only an economical zone?

[jez]

I don't reacall saying it wasn't legitmiate. It's also legitimate, however, to speak out against the influence of religion on secular politics. Should I shut up just because the Pope is free to say what he wants? The Pope was also free to advise sexual restraint rather than condoms. That does not mean we have to shut up.
Furthermore, it would be naive to think the media gives equal airing to everyone. You may think that's normal. Maybe it is, but I don't think it's acceptable.
The Pope can say what he likes, but I don't think his opinion, as leader of the Catholic Church, should have an effect on secular politics. I'm agnostic. Does that mean I have no place in Europe?(and please don't reply only to the latter comment!).

[ramchop]

I don't reacall saying it wasn't legitmiate. It's also legitimate, however, to speak out against the influence of religion on secular politics. Should I shut up just because the Pope is free to say what he wants? The Pope was also free to advise sexual restraint rather than condoms. That does not mean we have to shut up.

So what you're saying is it's OK for the secular to have a say in the religious (e.g. condom use by Catholics) but not for the religious to have a say in the secular?

We're all grown ups. Including the powers in the EU. We can listen and make our own decisions. This isn't a case of religion in schools (which I have a much stronger stance againt).

If the pope was saying the death penalty should be outlawed would you have started this thread? Attack the arguement (though it's a boring one) not the source.

[katakori]

If the pope was saying the death penalty should be outlawed would you have started this thread?

prrobably not, because it's what most people expect from him, ie. comments toward peace and harmony and without any real consequence (i'm not being sarcastic on this last point, just honest).
yet, when he ordered africans to not put condoms, MANY threads like this one (and not only on the net, of course) were started everywhere in the so-called "developped" countries... it doesn't mean anyone was right or wrong, but that we are reacting on some authority overpassing its supposed limitations, somehow...

[Resolute Optimist]

I don't reacall saying it wasn't legitmiate. It's also legitimate, however, to speak out against the influence of religion on secular politics. Should I shut up just because the Pope is free to say what he wants

You can't recall it because you didn't. I said that it was a legitimate question.

I'm afraid the old man is listened to more than we may like.

In which cases? Condoms are still available aren't they?

[jez]

I'm afraid the old man is listened to more than we may like.

In which cases? Condoms are still available aren't they?

If there are people willing to follow his 'orders', and there most certainly are, I find him dangerous. It isn't a matter of stopping anyone, including the Pope, of saying what they want, but a matter of reacting to what one percieves as dangerous comments, or ones which one percieves to be out of place. If anyone agrees with the Pope, that's fine, we can have a discussion on that. What I am saying is that in my opinion, the Vatican is making comments which should be separate from it's sphere of influence. Therefore I am speaking out, because I fear that comments coming from the Vatican are actually listened to by many people. Also, I happen to believe the remarks on Turkey and the EU are discriminatory(whether Turkey should or shouldn't be in the EU is not the point, but rather the reasons given).
Even if the Pope came out in favourof the death penalty, I wouldn't have started this thread, as I believe it is a matter of conscience, and moral values, and those are what religion is about(of course, I could say, that the death penalty is contrary to what christians are taught, and one could easily point that out to Bush and his fellow Bible Bashers, but that is another matter).
I hope I make myself clear