Japanese Couple Lose Appeal Over Twins

[FG Lurker]

I intended to discuss it by posting my feelings on the matter. I did. I didn't intend to have to answer demands for "facts" to back up my personal opinion: something that is impossible. That's what was so annoying about your posts.

We're going in circles. I asked for proof to back up your statements because you made statements that should be possible to back up with proof (if said statements are not purely opinion). From your first post: "The case against these unnatural methods of forming a parent-child relationship is quite strong. I can see why it's actually quite logical for the Japanese government to outlaw it."

And when I asked (rhetorically) why you don't just post your opinion and leave it at that, it was meant as a comment about the fact that you didn't do that: you instead spent all your time trying to take apart my posts.

I asked you to back up your posts. This is not an uncommon thing to request on a discussion forum. Eventually you said "they are my opinions", and that is fine.

I.e. instead of saying, "how can you think that slim, what's your proof?" just say "intersting perspective, but i see it this way...". The latter is much more civilized.)

To be honest, I wanted to see what information had taken you to the point of believing that what you posted was fact. I wasn't closed to the idea that it could be fact even though it was not what I personally agree with. That is why I asked the first time.

In any case it wasn't my intention to step on your toes about an issue that is clearly very emotional for you. You have given me "food for thought" on the surrogacy issue though, and I will certainly consider it further.

[maraboutslim]

In my humble opinion, taking a kid away from his biological mother or father or (if dead) other blood relatives, is always wrong. It is more wrong when done as part of a financial transaction!

It may be less wrong though, than other things that could happen to the kid, of course. But I just want to express the opinion that we should stop believing that the practice of adoption itself doesn't have any negatives. Others only talk about it like there is no negative side to it at all - as if a prosperous upbrining is all that should be considered. I guess I'm just not as materialistic as that and concentrate more on the emotional and psychological and physical side of the issue.

My opinions on the surrogates and whatnot are only in relation to them ending up the same was as adoption: the fact that the children are being raised by genetic strangers. In that sense, I do have experience in it. And my experience is that it sucks. It's a really annoying way to go through life. Perhaps I'd be in worse shape if I had not been adopted, but that's not the point: the point is to say that adoption creates a whole additional set of negatives. Surrogates and the like create the same issues.

[maraboutslim]

I intended to discuss it by posting my feelings on the matter. I did. I didn't intend to have to answer demands for "facts" to back up my personal opinion: something that is impossible. That's what was so annoying about your posts.

We're going in circles. I asked for proof to back up your statements because you made statements that should be possible to back up with proof (if said statements are not purely opinion). From your first post: "The case against these unnatural methods of forming a parent-child relationship is quite strong. I can see why it's actually quite logical for the Japanese government to outlaw it."

Well, we had just read a post that described in great detail the Japanese government's logic behind their position. That's why I saw your asking for further "facts" to be quite odd. I couldn't see how you could have read that post and not saw it as a strong, very clear, case. I could see how you could disagree with it, but not why you wanted more explanation of it. So I took your questions to be simply designed to antagonize me.

I hope next time our exchanges will go more smoothly.

[FG Lurker]

I hope next time our exchanges will go more smoothly.

Agreed!

[Mulboyne]

Mainichi: Top court refuses to recognize celebrity as biological mother of surrogate twins

The Supreme Court on Friday overturned a high court ruling that had ordered a Tokyo ward office to accept the registration of twins born to celebrity Aki Mukai and her husband Nobuhiko Takada through host surrogacy. The 3-year-old twin boys were born in a surrogate process in the United States, but the Shinagawa Ward office refused to accept the couple's registration of the birth of the twins, saying Mukai could not be recognized as the mother. The Supreme Court's final decision on the case means that the couple cannot have the twins legally recognized as their biological children.

In 2000 Mukai was found to have cancer of the womb and had her womb removed. The couple subsequently went through a surrogate birth process and the twin boys were born in 2003. However, when Mukai and her husband tried to register the births, the Shinagawa Ward office refused to accept the registration, saying that since Mukai had not given birth to the twins herself, she could not be accepted as the mother. The Tokyo Family Court denied the couple's motion to have the ward government register the birth, but the Tokyo High Court had later ordered the ward to accept the registration.

[Oradea]

Fucked up

[Mulboyne]

Kyodo: Twin boys born via surrogacy to be raised as Americans

TV personality Aki Mukai and former professional wrestler Nobuhiko Takada said Wednesday they have decided to raise the twin boys they had through an American surrogate mother as U.S. nationals as the Supreme Court rejected the couple's plea to register them as their own children. The 3-year-old twins, born in Nevada in 2003, have U.S. citizenship under U.S. law and will likely be given resident status in Japan. Mukai, 42, and Takada, 44, said they had no choice but to see Wednesday's deadline pass for registering with Tokyo's Shinagawa Ward office the twins as children of Takada and the American woman as they had agreed not to do so with her in signing for host surrogacy. "I think the idea that having a child must entail pain to the mother remains strong in Japan, and it will take time for surrogate births to be accepted here," Mukai said in a press conference in Tokyo.

[maraboutslim]

The Supreme Court's final decision on the case means that the couple cannot have the twins legally recognized as their biological children.

Sounds reasonable, since they are not their biological children. They are the biological children of three individuals, only one of which (and arguably the least important one) is part of this Japanese "couple". Why should we legally recognize something that isn't recognizable as a physical fact?

I still haven't figured out why they don't just adopt the kids. All I can think of is that they are as hung up about the "blood" connection as everyone else in Japan and therefore want to erase all trace of there not being one between Ms. Mukai and her children by having a regular koseki like everyone else that claims the kids are actually hers in the traditional sense.

[American Oyaji]

You know what is odd. The more I learn about Japan, the more dissillusioned I become about the country. I really like the country, and the people, but the people in charge are frickin idjits. I think inbreeding is causing brain damage.

I see it at work all the time.