Expats fear for children's fate under new rules

[james]

[omae mona]

From that article, it sounds as if the UK has the same policy. Is that correct?

Anyway, as the article points out, one of the worst things about this policy is the high potential it has to create stateless individuals. If you're one of these "special" semi-Canadians born outside of Canada, and then your own child is born in any country like Japan without jus soli, then guess what? You have a kid with no citizenship in any country.

[prolly]

so basically two generations in a row born outside of the same country of citizenry doesn't guarantee anything.

so if your kid is born outside canada, and then their kid is also born outside canada, that kid isn't a full citizen.

i find this rather practical: if you're a citizen but not paying taxes to your "home country" then basically you get to enjoy the benefits of, in this instance, canada, should you ever need it, but without paying fully into the programs.

this will mostly affect canada's large asian population, mostly taiwanese.

[Number11]

Do you have any examples of benefits children of Canadian expats are enjoying now?

[james]

From that article, it sounds as if the UK has the same policy. Is that correct?

Anyway, as the article points out, one of the worst things about this policy is the high potential it has to create stateless individuals. If you're one of these "special" semi-Canadians born outside of Canada, and then your own child is born in any country like Japan without jus soli, then guess what? You have a kid with no citizenship in any country.

i can't quote sources but i think there are laws on the books in canada such that if it were to result in an individual being rendered stateless, that there is recourse to obtain canadian citizenship using proof of lineage etc.

that said, while i understand the reasoning behind the changes and the government not wanting large numbers of people with no real ties to the country to simply pass on citizenship ad infinitum, in the process they've done exactly as you describe - creating two tiers of citizen.

as is typical of legislation that is drafted in canada, i don't think they thought it all the way through and as usual the needs of canadian citizens and landed immigrants, especially those living abroad, come last but anyone playing the refugee claim trump card has the ^%!ing red carpet rolled out.

i'm not sure where the line should be drawn but rather than arbitrarily state that "the foreign born children of your foreign born children who are canadian citizens, have no claim on canadian citizenship" they should look at waiving the restriction, perhaps based on a period of residence in the country. ie, if my own japanese born children spend x years in canada, then the restriction can be waived and they can confer canadian citizenship on their children should they happen to be born outside of canada... or perhaps something simpler..suggestions?

[james]

so if your kid is born outside canada, and then their kid is also born outside canada, that kid isn't a full citizen.

that kid isn't a citizen. period.

i find this rather practical: if you're a citizen but not paying taxes to your "home country" then basically you get to enjoy the benefits of, in this instance, canada, should you ever need it, but without paying fully into the programs.

i don't. are you telling me that my japanese born sons, now 6 & 4 should not have the same rights i did to confer citizenship? - even if i were to move back in a few years and they were to live there into adulthood before perhaps going abroad and having children of their own?

[james]

Do you have any examples of benefits children of Canadian expats are enjoying now?

free english lessons from dad?

edit: ps - welcome to the board.

[Number11]

Hi...
I wasn't being sarcastic, I really wonder what benefits prolly is talking about that people get now without having paid into the, cough, system.

Maybe I can get some . . .

[Samurai_Jerk]

Hi...
I wasn't being sarcastic, I really wonder what benefits prolly is talking about that people get now without having paid into the, cough, system.

Maybe I can get some . . .

He could be thinking of health care. Let's you're a citizen of Canada but have never lived there or paid taxes there and got sick in your home country which has third-world medicine. Would you still have access to the health case system if you flew to Canada?


*Not saying whether that's good or bad. Just curious. Finnish people keep paying into the health care system even if the live abroad, so it's not an issue in Finland's case.

[james]

Hi...
I wasn't being sarcastic, I really wonder what benefits prolly is talking about that people get now without having paid into the, cough, system.

Maybe I can get some . . .

i'm not sure. it's not like canada as a country has a rep for going to bat for its citizens when they encounter trouble abroad. they're certainly not doing much to improve consular services and it's not as though they're interested in tapping the knowledge base and perspective of expats.

if he's talking about health coverage, that disappears very quickly too - ohip coverage for me (ontario health insurance plan) was gone six months after leaving, so it's not as though my descendants would be plaguing ontario's world-class health care for generations to come. when i visit and go for a physical checkup with my gp and a dental checkup, i pay out of pocket.

canada has reciprocal agreements with a few countries i think (japan at least) such that if i were actually paying nenkin here, my contributions would be transferrable to the cpp (canadian ponzi plan). they seem to have no trouble facilitating the intergenerational transfer of wealth regardless of where you reside.

so really, i have no idea what benefits he's talking about.

[omae mona]

In my mind laws are bad when they're crafted so poorly that they don't meet their objective, or worse, ruin things for people who weren't at all related to the original goal. I don't have a horse in this race (I'm not Canadian). But clearly this law - unintentionally - would create a class of people who were born in Canada, have lived almost all of their lives in Canada, come from a long line of Canadian citizens, are even CAUCASIAN (gasp!!), but will not be able to pass on Canadian citizenship to their children. Simply because somebody happened to be out of the country on travel at the wrong time.

The goal of the law is to fuck over immigrants to Canada. You can debate that on its own merits. But since the details of the law were poorly conceived, the law would also fuck over non-immigrants, which was clearly not the goal. There are plenty of ways to write the law to specifically fuck over the right set of people (Australia has done it), but the Canadian lawmakers botched it, apparently.

I think that's what the fuss is about.

[Number11]

Thanks for the info, james. I've been gone from Canada for a lifetime, but I thought it would be just as you said.

Yes, omae mona, I think the money line in the article is: "But federal officials acknowledge they did not contemplate all of the ramifications when they crafted the legislation."

I'm sure they'll really screw things up when they try to fix it...

[Greji]

I think that's what the fuss is about.

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but the US has done a simular thing by accident for the foreign born children of ex-pats.

When the US was attempting to control naturalization/immigration (occasionally they actually try), they screwed up the law for naturalization by putting in a living requirement, so that if you do not have enough years actually residing in the states, you cannot register the birth of any of your children as US citizens born abroad. This happened in the case of my son who is a US citizen, but was born and raised in Japan, with limited time in the states, when he tried to register his child as a US Citizen born abroad.

What happens is that you submit the request for birth registration which is automatically rejected because the parent has not lived in the states long enough (different periods of time for before and after 16) and once it is reject they will apply the child for an immigrant visa which will be accepted right away as the off spring of a US citizen. Then you must physically travel to the states and as soon as the child enters the states it automatically becomes a citizen and when you return to your home abroad (in my son's case Japan). They will then register the birth and issue a US passport. The embassy recognizes the it is fucked, but the stupid congress put it in the law that way without review of the problems, so this is the only workaround.

[prolly]

canadian passport*; canadian legal aid and diplomacy when overseas and, for example, incarcerated; home ground one can legally 'flee' to and seek refuge indefinitely in the event host country devolves, etc**.

*make no mistake a canadian passport sure opens a lot more doors to more places with no restrictions than one from, say, mainland china.

** a good example is iraelis who get dual citizenship in both israel and the usa, for beneficial reasons that are obvious to anyone familiar with the middle east. they are allowed access to usa citizenship without having to apply for it and without the other issues if they were to apply for citizenship in, for example, japan.

Do you have any examples of benefits children of Canadian expats are enjoying now?

[Kuang_Grade]

** they are allowed access to usa citizenship without having to apply for it and without the other issues if they were to apply for citizenship in, for example, japan.

I think you've got that turned around...I believe US citizens could get Israeli passports without alot of fuss by Israeli officials if they can prove their 'Jewishness' sufficiently, but Israelis don't get a shorter path to US citizenship...they have to jump through the same hoops everyone else does. And its my understanding that many Muslim countries will not let you in if you have passport stamps from Israel, regardless of what passport they are in.

[james]

there is now an online petition, being hosted by The Canadian Expat Association.

would encourage canadian fgs to make yourself heard and sign it.