Rennovation of a Tokyo Apartment

[Mulboyne]

[Coligny]

Just missing the Tum tum tum lum music and that fake blond jerkoff with sunglasses on his forehead.

oh... and the "after" shot with so much light that you can barely see any details on how they turn a shithole into another shithole but for much more money...

[kusai Jijii]

oh... and the "after" shot with so much light that you can barely see any details on how they turn a shithole into another shithole but for much more money...

Well, whatdayaknow, we agree on something.

[Zeth3D]

Well in anycase,

Ive actually been wondering, back here in the states we've got HomeDepo and Lowes and other stores that provide for the do-it-your-selfers, how popular is home renouvation, of the do it yourself kind or otherwise, in japan?

Ill start living in Japan (Osaka) in september and was hoping to finally find a Lowes equivelent, which i havent been able to find in my previous adverntures to japan, but i really wasnt looking too hard

[Greji]

[quote="Zeth3D"]Well in anycase,

Ive actually been wondering, back here in the states we've got HomeDepo and Lowes and other stores that provide for the do-it-your-selfers, how popular is home renouvation, of the do it yourself kind or otherwise, in japan?

Ill start living in Japan (Osaka) in september and was hoping to finally find a Lowes equivelent, which i havent been able to find in my previous adverntures to japan, but i really wasnt looking too hard ]

They have any number of home centers that you can find al the do-it-yourself stuff and a lot have tool rental for power tools. They have help centers in the big centers that will cut your wood/metal/pipes to the desired lengths etc. If you're not looking for them you don't notice them, but as long as you are in a reasonably populated area, you will have an access.

[Zeth3D]

Is there a particular store you'd recommend?
And I'd assume they'd provide some sort of service for transporting materials if need be, cuz I could take everything home on the train....

[Catoneinutica]

Very interesting link - thanks Mulboyne. I've always wondered what it would look like if you gutted a J-concrete-human-containment-box (tm) and started over.

I couldn't verify from the photos whether the new white walls are painted or wallpapered. They appear to be painted, and if so, I'm surprised they found their carpenters so easy to work with; Japanese carpenters loathe drywalling and painting. We've really had to twist their arms every time we wanted it done.

-catone
- "Hai, paint the first floor. Kondo gambarimasu. Sigh. But what about the second floor? Certainly you don't want that painted?

[wuchan]

Is there a particular store you'd recommend?
And I'd assume they'd provide some sort of service for transporting materials if need be, cuz I could take everything home on the train....

The home centers have gotten a lot better recently. It seems like Japanese people are doing more work themselves. I don't think they do it for the same reasons that Americans do. Here it seems like they do it because the "renewing" companies charge a shitload of cash to fill your house with particle board crap.
I go to Super Viva Home just about every week. It's not home depot but it has just about everything you need, and yes, they deliver.

[TennoChinko]

I'm curious to know how the apartment looks from the outside.

Also, did they provide any estimates on how much a similar renovation might cost?

Back in the US, if it's a home, at least there is a pretty clear recognizable formulae out there that provides an incentive to improve the equity in one's home. I am not so sure that the same holds in Japan - to me it is unclear.

[American Oyaji]

I think they did a good job with the place. I think anyone (Japanese) going in there would trip because it's SO modern.

[Coligny]

Is there a particular store you'd recommend?
And I'd assume they'd provide some sort of service for transporting materials if need be, cuz I could take everything home on the train....

Try to avoid Kahma, their wood is the shittiest evar (and overpriced) tool selection is quite limited too. Sellers... are... like totally retarded... I once asked for finishing plaster (enduit in french) The bloke told me it didn't exist for sale and I should call a professionnal to do the job. 30 minutes and a dictionnary later I left with 3 different kind (pre-mix, powder and tube for light scratches)

Cainz Home is usually much better. Before I also was going to a coutryside-ish chain called D2. For big pro stuff, nothing beats Odaka. (all these advice are unfortunately for Aichi/komaki/Nagoya/Toyohashi, YMMV)

Now for tools the best is rakuten as usual. Shops really don't carry the full lineups of the local brand. And make you pay a lot...

[Typhoon]

I think they did a good job with the place. I think anyone (Japanese) going in there would trip because it's SO modern.

Agreed. A major improvement.

[wuchan]

I think they did a good job with the place. I think anyone (Japanese) going in there would trip because it's SO modern.

until you run your fingernail across the seams...... then the shit comes apart.

[wuchan]

Try to avoid Kahma, their wood is the shittiest evar (and overpriced) tool selection is quite limited too. Sellers... are... like totally retarded... I once asked for finishing plaster (enduit in french) The bloke told me it didn't exist for sale and I should call a professionnal to do the job. 30 minutes and a dictionnary later I left with 3 different kind (pre-mix, powder and tube for light scratches)

Cainz Home is usually much better. Before I also was going to a coutryside-ish chain called D2. For big pro stuff, nothing beats Odaka. (all these advice are unfortunately for Aichi/komaki/Nagoya/Toyohashi, YMMV)

Now for tools the best is rakuten as usual. Shops really don't carry the full lineups of the local brand. And make you pay a lot...

rakuten is good for most stuff but all the major tool makers have sales outlets here. All my tools are craftsman, STHL, snap-on, or other high end world known tool makers. Didn't cost too much more than the crap sold at the J-homecenter but are much better and are good for life...... I want to see a J-tool backed up with a world wide lifetime guarantee, it won't ever happen.

[Zeth3D]

rakuten is good for most stuff but all the major tool makers have sales outlets here. All my tools are craftsman, STHL, snap-on, or other high end world known tool makers. Didn't cost too much more than the crap sold at the J-homecenter but are much better and are good for life...... I want to see a J-tool backed up with a world wide lifetime guarantee, it won't ever happen.

I dont know, back home we like alot of Hitachi tools, they are among the top that we use which include DeWalt and Kobalt, etc.

Anyways, someone mentioned earlier they had a bit of trouble getting sheetrock done, I have my general contractors, electrical and plumbing liscenses commercial and residential back home. Not that that makes me qualified to work in japan necessarily, but just saying if any of you want some work done by a professional, i wouldnt mind now that i know where to get supplies and tools and what not.

Though im technically supposed to be going to school....

[Samurai_Jerk]

I'm curious to know how the apartment looks from the outside.

Also, did they provide any estimates on how much a similar renovation might cost?

Back in the US, if it's a home, at least there is a pretty clear recognizable formulae out there that provides an incentive to improve the equity in one's home. I am not so sure that the same holds in Japan - to me it is unclear.

In Japan, homes don't go up in value, so the only incentive would be living in a nicer space.

[Coligny]

rakuten is good for most stuff but all the major tool makers have sales outlets here. All my tools are craftsman, STHL, snap-on, or other high end world known tool makers. Didn't cost too much more than the crap sold at the J-homecenter but are much better and are good for life...... I want to see a J-tool backed up with a world wide lifetime guarantee, it won't ever happen.

Ehmmm... dat's amurikin brand... with imperial size... so yes... it's da bomb, unless you are born in the metric world and mathematically challenged.

Beside for machine tool it would be hard to beat to local production.
as I wouldn't qualify Hozan, Toyoas, Towa or Harp as crap...

[TennoChinko]

In Japan, homes don't go up in value, so the only incentive would be living in a nicer space.

If that particular apartment were for sale, I'd definitely think it could sell more than a neighboring unit in the same old previous condition. I wonder if the difference in price would make up for the cost of the renovation however -and as you indicated, buildings in Japan whether homes or apartments, almost always depreciate. Buying a pristine designer apartment within an otherwise shitty building would make me think twice about the overall value.

[Mulboyne]

If that particular apartment were for sale, I'd definitely think it could sell more than a neighboring unit in the same old previous condition.

I'm not sure that would be so. It might rent for more but the second hand apartment buyers market doesn't include many people who would place a value on fixtures and fittings. You want a discount if they are in poor condition but not a premium for good condition.

[Catoneinutica]

I'm not sure that would be so. It might rent for more but the second hand apartment buyers market doesn't include many people who would place a value on fixtures and fittings. You want a discount if they are in poor condition but not a premium for good condition.

I'd be interested in knowing on what basis Mulboyne makes this assertion. We've sold two places, one mansion and one house, in Japan, and in both cases were told directly by the ultimate buyers (not via the real estate agent) that they were willing to pay a premium for the fixtures (lights, flooring, plumbing fixtures, etc).

This is only anecdotal, of course. Almost all housing in Japan is a depreciating asset]shift up[/I] the depreciation curve, however.

[FG Lurker]

[Zeth3D]

How long are you going to be in Osaka? Which school will you be attending?

Ill be attending Kansai Gaidai, and im signed up for a year. I figure at least a year.

[Mulboyne]

I'd be interested in knowing on what basis Mulboyne makes this assertion. We've sold two places, one mansion and one house, in Japan, and in both cases were told directly by the ultimate buyers (not via the real estate agent) that they were willing to pay a premium for the fixtures (lights, flooring, plumbing fixtures, etc).

This is only anecdotal, of course. Almost all housing in Japan is a depreciating asset]shift up[/I] the depreciation curve, however.

I was actually thinking specifically about this property but I would have made the case for apartment blocks in general so I'm interested to hear that one of your deals was for a mansion. I think you are right that stand alone houses can benefit from fixtures.

My views might be out-of-date or just wrong but I worked in distressed asset markets around ten years ago and part of what we did was to look at what factors affected prices. Broadly speaking, renovating a whole block enhanced the rental value of each unit and the outlay could pay for itself in a subsequent sale provided no new units went up nearby.

In some cases, we were looking at owning only some units within a block rather than the whole block itself. Here the calculations were different. We could renovate the interior but not touch the common areas and facilities without agreement with the other owners. That put a cap on both the rental and resale enhancement we could get from renovation. Provided there were no new blocks going up nearby, it was worth doing for the rent bump but not if the plan was to flip. We certainly found that the banks lending to potential second-hand apartment buyers were not inclined to lend more for a renovated unit against another in the same block.

To some degree, we might be playing with words. If I say people will look for a discount for a poor interior and facilities, I suppose that is another way of saying people will pay more for a decent interior.

[Catoneinutica]

I was actually thinking specifically about this property but I would have made the case for apartment blocks in general so I'm interested to hear that one of your deals was for a mansion. I think you are right that stand alone houses can benefit from fixtures.

My views might be out-of-date or just wrong but I worked in distressed asset markets around ten years ago and part of what we did was to look at what factors affected prices. Broadly speaking, renovating a whole block enhanced the rental value of each unit and the outlay could pay for itself in a subsequent sale provided no new units went up nearby.

In some cases, we were looking at owning only some units within a block rather than the whole block itself. Here the calculations were different. We could renovate the interior but not touch the common areas and facilities without agreement with the other owners. That put a cap on both the rental and resale enhancement we could get from renovation. Provided there were no new blocks going up nearby, it was worth doing for the rent bump but not if the plan was to flip. We certainly found that the banks lending to potential second-hand apartment buyers were not inclined to lend more for a renovated unit against another in the same block.

To some degree, we might be playing with words. If I say people will look for a discount for a poor interior and facilities, I suppose that is another way of saying people will pay more for a decent interior.

Thank you for the interesting reply. Our takes on real estate in Japan seem to inhabit different quantum universes; you seem to be more focused on macroscopic details like rental yields and REIT valuation, whereas my perspective is nothing if not microscopic - indeed, quotidian. When we first started living in my wife's bubble-era mansion after moving here from the US, I was dismayed by the shoddy, and typically Japanese, quality of the interior fixtures. I immediately pulled out the standard-issue gray carpeting from the two non-tatami bedrooms and replaced it with solid-wood flooring from Joyful Honda. I also ordered "plantation" shutters to conceal the translucent, wire-mesh windows. Hired a carpenter to work for two days, and I think the total cost with labor was under 200,000 yen. A few years later, when we sold the place, we got multiple bids and my wife ended up getting slightly over a million yen for the place than it had been listed for because of the renovation of the bedrooms. The buyers were a retired couple and the wife said she "wanted to spend the rest of her life" reading and sewing in the place, she liked it so much. Jesus, how sad.

That all said, the place still depreciated by nearly 50% in the time my wife owned it. You read stories in the NY Times about Japanese who bought mansions in the 90s for 50-100 million yen, and now they're working at 7-11 to pay off the mortgages. They're slaves to their mansions because the places are worth a fraction of their purchase price, hence unsaleable. This while American homedebtors are "walking away" from their negative-equity money pits with no tax or even credit consequences.

You'd have to be insane to buy a new mansion in Japan; the thing will always be worth less than the amount you owe, and the banks, knowing this, require guarantors. I've asked J-friends if they know what people do here who can't keep up with their housing-loan payments, and they reply, well, I guess they have to disappear or kill themselves. Personal bankruptcy is exceedingly difficult, it seems. If that isn't a huge caveat emptor, I don't know what is. What the folks in Mulboyne's link did was an interesting and creative alternative (although I note they couldn't replace the ugly aluminum windows and balcony doors, and there were doubtless quite a few other constraints).