appeared to be foreigners.....

[jez]

Also there is the famous internet test http://www.alllooksame.com/

It's down...have you been there recently?

[ramchop]

Of course, if you're asian(in Japan), it's a little harder, but many japanese claim to be able to tell pretty easily(gestures, posture etc)who is Japanese and who is Korean or Chinese at least. I can also often tell the difference.

Many may make that claim, but believe me it's far removed from reality. In my experience if you're an Asian in Japan, a Japanese stranger will automatically chatter away in Japanese. Whereas if you're white it'll be a much more cautious approach.


It's a pity that website is down as I'm sure you'd fail the test miserably. I got about 50% and when you consider there's a one in 3 chance of guessing right that's a pretty big failure.

[Andocrates]

I was there today to get the link

[jez]

Of course, if you're asian(in Japan), it's a little harder, but many japanese claim to be able to tell pretty easily(gestures, posture etc)who is Japanese and who is Korean or Chinese at least. I can also often tell the difference.

Many may make that claim, but believe me it's far removed from reality. In my experience if you're an Asian in Japan, a Japanese stranger will automatically chatter away in Japanese. Whereas if you're white it'll be a much more cautious approach.

I'm sure you're right. It doesn't change the fact, that there is a great difference between reactions to foreigners in Japan, and to foreigners in Europe. It's pretty obvious, given the homogenous nature of Japan. I'm not complaining about this, even if I believe any country would be better off with more ethnic mixity.
I have tried the test, and did pretty badly(7/18-though apparently it's the average). I thought I'd try a second time, but they were the same people again!

[Resolute Optimist]

f I am not mistaken, you don't live and haven't lived in Japan, have you? I don't mean this aggressively(and if I am wrong, please tell me), but, having been brought up in France, and now living in Japan, I can tell you there is a very big difference between perceptions in Europe and those in Japan(Asia probably). Of course racism is rife in France, but it's not the same as in Japan, where, if you don't have asian features, you are a gaijin, even if you were born here, speak japanese fluently, and/or are a japanese citizen.

I am coming to Japan next year so I'm having a root through websites to avoid culture shock I'm sure all my efforts will go out of the window upon arrival!

I'm sure that there are differences, but if you are the son of algerian immigrants, born and raised in France, speaking fluent french, you are not REALLY considered French, but Algerian by most. I'm not sure in how many generations you become a national...
Maybe in 100 years time with 4 generations of "gaijin" born and bred in Japan, they might start to consider foreign looking people differently... but that might be wishful thinking!

[kotatsuneko]

i was quietly sitting down on a park bench in odori park, during the lilac matsuri last week, and these 2 cops came walking down, in the middle of the park, when they saw me, they came right up close to my bench, looked under it, i guess in case there was a large bag full of bombs/guns or whatever, stared me in the eye, and poked around in the bin next to me, and pulled out an oh so suspicous looking orange juice carton i had finished drinking then mumbled something between them and walked back to the centre of the path, not paying any attention to the rest of the people sitting on the benches..

damn i wish they would hassle all the triads at sapporo/hokkaido uni instead..

then again..

today after class, i was with the j teacher , and we saw the bus behind us, and the stop was a good half block ahead, so we made a run for it, and a few meters later the bus stopped and the driver let us on!

there always seems to be a nice person for all the arseholes, and it really cheered me up!

[jez]

I'm sure that there are differences, but if you are the son of algerian immigrants, born and raised in France, speaking fluent french, you are not REALLY considered French, but Algerian by most. I'm not sure in how many generations you become a national...
Maybe in 100 years time with 4 generations of "gaijin" born and bred in Japan, they might start to consider foreign looking people differently... but that might be wishful thinking!

Children of Algerians who are born in France, are French by law aren't they? It's 'droit du sol' again isn't it? Sons and daughters of
koreans who are born in Japan are not citizens automatically. They have to go through the same process as any foreigners born abroad (even though a foreign (obviously!) seal, Tama-chan, was recently given 'residency status' in Yokohama, so can vote...).
I agree once again with you that there is much racism in France, and that french minorities are much less integrated than in other countries such as the UK, but it would be a mistake to say, that they are regarded as foreigners by most. You see, in Japan, it isn't so much a matter of hateful racism(though that exists), but rather a clear belief, that if both your parents are not racially japanese, you will never be japanese. YOu might be loved, revered, and respected, but you will always be an outsider('gaijin'). I think, that even the rabid Le Penists in France know, that young 'beurs' (second generation arabs), are really french(which is maybe the fact they hate most). Personally, I know that most young 'beurs' are more french than I am(though I have more french blood than they do). And that is not political correctness. It's simply an obvious fact to me.
The difference is, that Western Europe is a multi-ethnic society, whereas Japan is not. It's colonialism was limited to Asia, and Japan's experience of people of other ethnic origins goes back only 150 years(with a few exceptions further back).
Finally, if you come with an open mind, I don't think you should have too much culture shock. Have you studied Japanese language/culture?

[Resolute Optimist]

Sons and daughters of
koreans who are born in Japan are not citizens automatically.

Ah. then that does make the situation very different. At least when confronted with prejudice, French citizens of foreign descent can retort that they are as French as anyone.

Finally, if you come with an open mind, I don't think you should have too much culture shock. Have you studied Japanese language/culture?

That's what I'm doing now. It's still a bit daunting, but I moved to France as a child and experienced the total helplessness of knowing NOTHING upon arrival. However, I remember clearly the phase when incomprehensible garble suddenly became words and meaning. I miss that and want it again. It's like a door to another world opening... Still, I suppose it won't be the same this time, being older (obviously) and coming prepared. Maybe I should go to China instead.
If anyone can speak chinese here, I'm jealous.

[jez]

Where did you move to France from?

[Mike Oxlong]

That brings up an interesting point, how good are you at telling the difference between chinese, japanese and korean? I suck at it. Although I can generally spot Koreans. I remember seeing some world war II poster on the internet somewhere that listed how to spot a "Jap" from a Chinese (they spelled their whole name)

Also there is the famous internet test http://www.alllooksame.com/

How to Spot a Jap

The other panels of the comic are at the link above.

[yanpa]

I don't think the phrases on the left would contribute much to mutual understanding...

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I don't think the phrases on the left would contribute much to mutual understanding...

They would if you screamed them really loud and followed up with, "Wazza matta? Doncha unastan Merkin?"
Or, you could do it the classy Strayan way...Let this be a message to anyone singing Frere Jacques on Strayan pubic transport.

[Yokohammer]

They would if you screamed them really loud and followed up with, "Wazza matta? Doncha unastan Merkin?"
Or, you could do it the classy Strayan way...Let this be a message to anyone singing Frere Jacques on Strayan pubic transport.

Saw this in The Age this morning. Fuggin disgusting. Absolutely.
Trying to balance out Australian racism and Japanese racism in my mind, and coming up with some confusing answers.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

They would if you screamed them really loud and followed up with, "Wazza matta? Doncha unastan Merkin?"
Or, you could do it the classy Strayan way...Let this be a message to anyone singing Frere Jacques on Strayan pubic transport.

Saw this in The Age this morning. Fuggin disgusting. Absolutely.
Trying to balance out Australian racism and Japanese racism in my mind, and coming up with some confusing answers.

I am...staggered. I knew Oz was bad, but didn't realize it had stooped this low.

[Coligny]

I don't even understand the start of what's happening there...

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I don't even understand the start of what's happening there...

Apparently, a group of women started singing a song in French on the back of a bus...I haven't seen images of the women, but one of them is apparently black/dark-skinned.

[wagyl]

I have detected a rising nationalism there, guys starting to get the flag tattooed on themselves which means that there will be an even greater issue involved (more than just "my great grandfather fought under it") when the country wants to change that colonial style flag.

I personally think that everyone should be made to experience some medium term overseas to understand how ridiculous the concept of nationality is. But on the other hand I don't want to export a lot of the idiots and subject the rest of the world to them.

[Coligny]

Don't mix nationnality with nationnalism...

a japanese nationnal might be just an idiot
but a japanese nationnalist is a dangerous idiot

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Reminds me that I must ask a couple of my indigenous mates what they reckon about Oz nationalism...

I don't know whether going outside a cuntry is the answer...Every cuntry has "nationalists" like these fuckwits. (From a psycholinguistic viewpoint it was interesting that both the Strayan men talking on the bus have accents tinged with southern European intonation, which suggests they may be as recent as second-generation themselves -- second bloke in particular.)

Australia, particularly under John Howard, frequently mistakes patriotism with nationalism. I readily admit to being a hyper-patriot, but nothing sickens me more than nationalism.

Coligny is right about Japanese nationalists being dangerous...but it's not just the Japanese ones.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I'm shocked that Aussies would behave that way.

[Mock Cockpit]

I'm shocked that Aussies would behave that way.

Quelle surprise!

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I'm shocked that Aussies would behave that way.

Thought you might be....


...Where is Charles now that we need him?

[Samurai_Jerk]

I'm shocked that Aussies would behave that way.

Thought you might be....


...Where is Charles now that we need him?

You know he's lurking and his head is about to explode.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Can't say I'm too far behind him after seeing this clip...

[matsuki]

Reminds me that I must ask a couple of my indigenous mates what they reckon about Oz nationalism...

Prolly same as me..."They are confuuuuuused" sums it up best. These are the "speak fucking [insert language here]! This is [insert cuntry here]!!" types that I can't understand. To foreigners, they're [insert cuntry here] but to nationals of their own cuntry, they're "half Greek" or "part German" or whatever. Reaching hard for an identity yet wanting to be unique...remind you of anyone in this "Cuntry?"

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Reaching hard for an identity yet wanting to be unique...remind you of anyone in this "Cuntry?"

Nothing quite says "unique" like having four seasons...

[Russell]

Hmm.

I got a similar experience in a bus in SF 15 years ago when I spoke Japanese to my wife, and a guy started scolding me for not speaking English...

Yes, SF !!!

The only relief I got from this is that he would have become even more pissed if he would have heard me speaking English with my Dutch accent.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

The only relief I got from this is that he would have become even more pissed if he would have heard me speaking English with my Dutch accent.

Isn't this how they get you to learn English in Nether-Land?

[IparryU]

Hmm.

I got a similar experience in a bus in SF 15 years ago when I spoke Japanese to my wife, and a guy started scolding me for not speaking English...

Yes, SF !!!

The only relief I got from this is that he would have become even more pissed if he would have heard me speaking English with my Dutch accent.

damn.. whenever I spoke japanese in SF, i just got people asking me what language I spoke... mostly pot heads from US Berkly... but never anything negative.

I just tell people, "I am Mexican so fuck off!"