How did karaoke morph into "carry-okee" in English pronunication worldwide?

[torasan]

This is not criticism of the way the term "karaoke" is pronounced in English in the USA and elsewhere, from Jay Leno and David Letterman on TV, to Japanese singer "AI" and DJ Kaori even in Tokyo, and everyone else in between. I am just curious, as an amateur linguist, to discover how the easy to say word KA RA OH KAY morphed into the totally inept "carry-okee" by Americans and their followers.

Did one DJ start it off? When?

I realize it is now impossible to stop the trending trend, it has already trended, and most people in English-speaking nations now think the proper way to say the word is carry-okee, and very few people seem to know the proper way to say it, and that it is quite easy to say, just as easy as carry-okee. Did an Okie from Muskogee come up with this carry-okee meme? Who did it and why? Any search links avail on this?

Again, this is not criticism. Foreigners in many countries have trouble speaking words in other languages -- me, too -- I mangle words as much as anyone and I admit it -- but when corrected, I try to mend my ways. Not so with the carry-okee meme. It seems to have solidified into a real term now in the West and it will never come back to KA RA OH KAY. C'est la vie, as they say in Italian.

But for example, "karate" is still prononced as KA RA TAY in the West, often as KA RA TEE, it's the same KARA (empty) -- empty hand, empty orchestra -- and the TE part I can see morphing into TEE in some mouths and that's okay, but the KARA is still KARA, not CARRY.....we don't say CARRY-TAY or CARRY-TEE for karate, do we?

So why the special gaffe-goof with karaoke? Curious how the tongue slippage first happened and when and where. Not for me to write, but some savvy New York Times reporter, like Ben Zimmer in the ON LANGUAGE column on Sundays, might want to tackle this meme one day, pro and con. He's a linguist, often blogs at Language Log blog. He recently wrote in the NY Times (January 31) about how the Japan Today website inadvertently gave global birth to the new term "crash blossoms" for quirky wacky strange news headlines when a savvy copyeditor in Sapporo spotted a very strange headline about a woman who survived the 1985 JAL plane crash in the mountains northwest of Tokyo and later blossomed into a budding violinist. The hed read: "Survivor of JAL crash blossoms" -- and that is how the term "crash blossoms" was born, thanks to an eagle-eyed expat editor in Sapporo.

Now, back to karaoke? Why can't DJ Kaori pronounce this correctly? Why can't the singer AI during a recent CNN interview from Australia?

Carry-okee? Do we really want the world to sing carry-okee?

Dish! Links! Fun!

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Them God-damned Okees. Maybe it's got something to do with The Grapes of Wrath....(which, incidentally now that we're talking about losses in translation, is translated into Japanese as Ikari no Budo, which literally means The Angry Grape.)

[torasan]

LOL!

.... .......The Grapes of Wrath....(which is translated into Japanese as Ikari no Budo, which literally means The Angry Grape.)

[dimwit]

I am just curious, as an amateur linguist, to discover how the easy to say word KA RA OH KAY morphed into the totally inept "carry-okee" by Americans and their followers.

The same way that 'hari kiri' became 'Hairy Carry'.

I think that because the word is not spelled with an inflection mark on the 'e' it is mispronounced.

[torasan]

good point!

The same way that 'hari kiri' became 'Hairy Carry'.

I think that because the word is not spelled with an inflection mark on the 'e' it is mispronounced.

[torasan]

yes, seems the "carry" sound is favored in the West, over kiri or kara...

but karate is never spoken as carree-tay or carree-tee, is it? Karate made the transition well, but karaoke and hari kiri did not make it over the pond so well...... interesting....

maybe spell it -- KARA-OK -- would that help?

[BO-SENSEI]

Probably because when people say it, they are too hammered to pronunciate anything.
Anyone want to count the number of common incorrect pronunciations in English and in Japanese to see which has more? Didn't think so. Here is my biggest problem with incorrect pronunciations in Japanese, its peoples names. In English, we don't call Asuka, A-SU-ka, but my friend Nathan gets called Nat-tan, simply because there is no "th" in the Japanese language which makes them incapable of simply adjusting their tounge to producing that sound.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

my friend Nathan gets called Nat-tan, simply because there is no "th" in the Japanese language which makes them incapable of simply adjusting their tounge to producing that sound.

I'm sure he'd prefer that to the alternative of Nee-san, which would be sure to elicit more than a few giggles.

[Christoff]

perhaps they mixed their "l"s and "r"s.

[torasan]

perhaps they mixed their "l"s and "r"s.

Christoff, speaking of which, my next post later in the week, is about the word ramen, which is wrong wrong wrong in English spelling, the actual and correct word is lamen, and to call lamen as ramen is just wrong. I realize nobody is going to want to get on this lamen/ramen train with me but it's true. The actual Chinese word is la-mien (pulled noodles) said lamen as well, and when the Japanese adopted the Chinese dish they called it lamen, but the poor overworked newspaper or magazine editor who first translated the term into English with English spelling wrote it incorrectly as RAMEN, when in fact it is LAMEN and the Japanese know this, they say it as LAMEN. But since they don't have the L sound in the syllaby.....out comes RA-MEN in hiragana katakana and English spelling does it as RAMEN, but it should be....and will be someday again...LAMEN.......there is already one eatery in NYC called TOKYO LAMEN. The sacho there knows the real thing.

Notice we don't call LONDON as RONDON do we? But why do we call LAMEN as RAMEN? It's a mistake to do so. But try changing that habit, just as hard as the carrry-okee thing.....

But all this is for another post later on. Let's keep invesigatoring karaoke, the empty orchestra meme....

[Number11]

Maybe the reason is that people are stupid? Look at how the American military people (from generals and admirals down to the lowest ranks) pronounce Yokosuka.

"Hey Bubba! You goin' to Yukusuka?"

Half the population think "looser" is a person who doesn't win.

I'm sorry that this wasn't a cerebral answer, but it's the best I can do. The "people are stupid" mantra seems to fit more and more.

[Dragonette]

but karate is never spoken as carree-tay or carree-tee, is it?

No, but like sa-kee I often hear karate pronounced kara-tee here. The J-folk don't have the foreign word mispronounciaton market cornered. We Yanks come up for at least a silver medal!

Nowadays, we don't dare screw up Spanish, Italian or Yiddish, and even messing with French will get you laughed at here, but it's still open season on Nihongo.

USA-style screw-ups have different rules, though. One rule is make it sound like another more familiar foreign word. so I think karaoke got confused with Carioca, My J-name often gets mixed up with "Masada", an ancient Israeli fortress, even though it's quite a bit different, and equally easy to pronounce. Maybe the thinking on both sides is "my innocent native mouth can't really deal with these weird foreign words, and it's un-American/un-Japanese to even try!"

[Greji]

One rule is make it sound like another more familiar foreign word. so I think karaoke got confused with Carioca,[/I]

I had always been told that Carioca was the origin of Karaoke, but lately it has changed. Japanese now totally claim Karaoke is an original J-word and back it up with kanji which is supposed to prove it un-foreign.

I do recall when it was always written in katakana and J-people said it was a phenom brought in by the long noses. As soon as it became so popular that you couldn't go out for an evening with friends without taking the mike and singing a song for fear of insulting, or pissing off your friends, it became a unique original property of Japan.

[Coligny]

Christoff, speaking of which, my next post later in the week, is about the word ramen, which is wrong wrong wrong in English spelling, the actual and correct word is lamen, and to call lamen as ramen is just wrong. I realize nobody is going to want to get on this lamen/ramen train with me but it's true. The actual Chinese word is la-mien (pulled noodles) said lamen as well, and when the Japanese adopted the Chinese dish they called it lamen, but the poor overworked newspaper or magazine editor who first translated the term into English with English spelling wrote it incorrectly as RAMEN, when in fact it is LAMEN and the Japanese know this, they say it as LAMEN. But since they don't have the L sound in the syllaby.....out comes RA-MEN in hiragana katakana and English spelling does it as RAMEN, but it should be....and will be someday again...LAMEN.......there is already one eatery in NYC called TOKYO LAMEN. The sacho there knows the real thing.

Notice we don't call LONDON as RONDON do we? But why do we call LAMEN as RAMEN? It's a mistake to do so. But try changing that habit, just as hard as the carrry-okee thing.....

But all this is for another post later on. Let's keep invesigatoring karaoke, the empty orchestra meme....

ehmmm... beware wif dis'kinda'talks... you setting up my wapanese alarms all over me computer... The only thing worth you could do is to start a bitchfight between gojirra and godzilla...

[6810]

[Yokohammer]

I had always been told that Carioca was the origin of Karaoke, but lately it has changed. Japanese now totally claim Karaoke is an original J-word and back it up with kanji which is supposed to prove it un-foreign.

I remember the term "karaoke" being used in the music industry here back as far as the early 70's (very early 70's), referring to minus-one recordings of orchestral or band backing that the pro singers would use to practice their stuff. This was before it became a national pastime for the talent-challenged, as I remember. Right from the beginning I was told it meant what it sounded like: "empty orchestra."

No proof, but there's another tidbit of reference info.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Wasn't karaoke invented by some dude who ran a bar in Kobe? Poor bugger failed to take out a patent, too, if I recall correctly.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Yep, it was...a punter called Daisuke Inoue in 1971.

Still doesn't answer how it became carry-okey, though.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

the actual and correct word is lamen, and to call lamen as ramen is just wrong.

Lamen sounds like what me and my old cobbers used to do in the Outback when there were no girls around. Boy, that was wrong, too.

[GomiGirl]

Lamen sounds like what me and my old cobbers used to do in the Outback when there were no girls around. Boy, that was wrong, too.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Screwed-down Hairdo again.


Damn you are a funny bugger SDH!!:tounge:

[CrankyBastard]

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

[I]Damn you are a funny bugger SDH!!:tounge:

Actually, that's a title I'd much rather bestow on Miss Japan!!!! I've never laughed so much in all my life as when I saw her get buggered.
Thanks for the praise, though! You're a sweetie!!!!!

[Mike Oxlong]

[Christoff]

If you are speak of tokyo lamen on 90 University Pl, sadly you have chosen a bad example as there "lamen" is god awful. try rai ria ken next time, t on tenth. From here on out, I will be calling it Rondon.

Can wait for Rondon 2012

BTW, anyone else think this logo looks like Lisa Simpson giving head?

[Mike Oxlong]

Karate is often pronounced "kuroty" or "Ka-rot-ee", just as judo is shortened in English, along with sumo. Matsuda becomes "Mazda", and on the Beeb samurai becomes "sa-myu-rai". I've also heard some pretty twisted pronunciations of nisei named Watanabe on American TV, and the Colbert Report recently had a speed skating segment where they butchered Shimabukuro.

[Samurai_Jerk]

anyone else think this logo looks like Lisa Simpson giving head?

Watch out. That kind of talk will get you arrested in Australia.

[Christoff]

Watch out. That kind of talk will get you arrested in Australia.

Defaming Lisa Simpson or talking about bjs?

[imjackhandy]

The Japanese "kara" probably morphed into "care rah" and then became "carry".

[IkemenTommy]

[Yokohammer]

Actually, there is an anecdote to that.

That's interesting, but what I now want to know is how the heck they (the Matsuda company) made the connection to, or even felt the necessity to refer to, an ancient Iranian religion and god?

I kinda doubt the shacho just happened to be a Zoroastrian.
I'm betting it was pure happenstance, discovered after the fact, rather than a deliberate choice.

Interesting that they should feel the need to explain it that way though.