Holocaust memorial takes shape

[japslapper]

The Germans are really trying hard to be forgiven and promote reconciliation.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3155901.stm

Here in Japan - could the same happen

[Snapped]

Here in Japan - could the same happen

Not until Japanese politicians take their collective heads out of the sand.

[Taro Toporific]

The Germans are really trying hard to be forgiven and promote reconciliation.

Here in Japan - could the same happen

German memorial

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . VS . . . . . . . . . . . .

Japan memorial

[blackcat]

well the Japanese would LOVE the idea...........of 2,700 CONCRETE BLOCKS whoohoooo japans favourite material you know.

But well the idea Of having a memorial remembering anyone other than japanese is HA a fucking joke.. there are plenty of memorials for japanese that "so bravely fought for japans honor" there is one in Shikoku for the wonderful chaps( J`s only of course) that died in Burma, shame not a goddam fucking prick on this island knows what they did there.

IE: marched,straved,bayonetted 1,000`s of POWS to death.
In one camp of 1,600+ POWS, 6 survived

Well there is a memorial to the koreans that died in Hiroshima....finally taken out of the fucking BASEBALL PARK IN 1998.

nice people japanese...pity they think you have to be one to be human.

[japslapper]

[Taro Toporific]

I have just written this letter to http://www.awf.or.jp/ - highlighting the possablity that Japan should put its skill at copying to good use and copy the Germans.
<snip>
...I will inform this site of any reply

Is there any special reason why you choose the Asian Womens Forum (http://www.awf.or.jp)?

You might have got paid as an "Op-Ed" is you submitted to Kyodo Press and another Japanese news service that ran a photo of the German memorial (of course adding a comment about the 2,700 blocks of the National Stone).

Little known fact to most gaijin is that for EVERY letter-to-the-editor that the Yomiuri, Asahi, etc. prints, the writer gets beer coupons or telephone cards. Western FG's letters-to-the-editor written in Japanese get printed very often.

One boring Golden Week, my judo sensei ghost-wrote for me a bunch of letters and sent them to all the major papers. We drank CASES of free beer the rest of the summer.

[kamome]

Also, is there any reason why you didn't get your letter proofread by a native Japanese person? I agree with your sentiments, but your letter will need some serious editing before it can get published.

[japslapper]

Is there any special reason why you choose the Asian Womens Forum (http://www.awf.or.jp)?

...in my youthfull naivity it looked the most "understanding" of the Japanese NGOs around on a relavant/similar issue. I am just testing the water to see if I get a response - not likely I think.

Little known fact to most gaijin is that for EVERY letter-to-the-editor that the Yomiuri, Asahi, etc. prints, the writer gets beer coupons or telephone cards. Western FG's letters-to-the-editor written in Japanese get printed very often.

One boring Golden Week, my judo sensei ghost-wrote for me a bunch of letters and sent them to all the major papers. We drank CASES of free beer the rest of the summer.

Thats really worth a try! Cheers Taro! A copy of all future letters will be posted! (though I will keep the beer tokens if I get any! )

Also, is there any reason why you didn't get your letter proofread by a native Japanese person? I agree with your sentiments, but your letter will need some serious editing before it can get published.

This was just a letter to an NGO - see if I get a response. For that purpose my Japanese I think is sufficient - although very "gaijin poi".
Letters to papers will of course be checked first by a native.
Anyway we must inspire the idea that there are many levels in language development - not just "hetta" and "kanpeki" - With English we have dialects and creols and variation and its accepted (usually) - Japanese should catch up

[Jack]

How many more Holocaust memorials does this world need? I wonder is the US should also build a Japanese memorial to commemorate the murder of over 200,000 innocent civilians with two bombs. Oh, I forget, Japanese are not Jewish so their lives might not count as much.

[japslapper]

How many more Holocaust memorials does this world need? I wonder is the US should also build a Japanese memorial to commemorate the murder of over 200,000 innocent civilians with two bombs. Oh, I forget, Japanese are not Jewish so their lives might not count as much.

I think the Germans are brave and honest with dealing with their history.
Japanese have done no such thing - despite the wealth of evidence its still denial time - and those "innocent" civilians in Hiroshima - do have a plenty of recognition - especially outside Japan - however inside Japan alot of fuss is made of Hiroshima etc but nobody explains openly why the H-bombs were dropped.

Why is the muslim world so full of Jihad? The seeds were sown in the First Crusade nearly 1000years ago - Crusader attrocities are not forgotten! Japan by not being honest and open and remorsefull they are sealing enbitterment for prosterity

[Jack]

those "innocent" civilians in Hiroshima - do have a plenty of recognition - especially outside Japan - however inside Japan alot of fuss is made of Hiroshima etc but nobody explains openly why the H-bombs were dropped.

What do you mean? Who has to explain why the Atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima? The Japanese have to explain or the Americans? I am sorry but I do not understand what you are trying to say. The Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki because those two cities along with Kyoto and Niigata and another city the name of which I forget were not affected by the firebombings like most of Japan. So dropping a bomb on one of the 5 cities that were not being firebombed would show the full impact of the damage of an atomic bomb. This was an important consideration because the Americans wanted to test the bomb and evaluate the damage it caused. According to a biography of Mcarthur, Kyoto was going to be the third city to be bombed had Japan not surrendered.

Why the atomic bomb was used in Japan and not in Germany? The reason is racism. Germans are white people while the Japanese are not.

I don't understand what you are getting at with the Islamic Jihad comment.

[cstaylor]

According to a biography of Mcarthur, Kyoto was going to be the third city to be bombed had Japan not surrendered.

Source please? How would MacArthur have known, since he wasn't on the select list of American Generals and politicians who even knew about the project? Furthermore, Secretary of War Stimson _specifically_ took Kyoto permanently off the list because of its historical significance.

Plus, there was no third bomb _yet_... they were working on them, but wouldn't have had them ready in time for use before the Soviets invaded Hokkaido.

Jack, don't use the names of famous Generals has a cheap appeal to authority, especially when you don't know what you're talking about.

[Jack]

According to a biography of Mcarthur, Kyoto was going to be the third city to be bombed had Japan not surrendered.

Source please? How would MacArthur have known, since he wasn't on the select list of American Generals and politicians who even knew about the project? Furthermore, Secretary of War Stimson _specifically_ took Kyoto permanently off the list because of its historical significance.

Plus, there was no third bomb _yet_... they were working on them, but wouldn't have had them ready in time for use before the Soviets invaded Hokkaido.

Jack, don't use the names of famous Generals has a cheap appeal to authority, especially when you don't know what you're talking about.

Here is the source: American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964
by William Manchester

I was not suggesting that MacArthur was saying what I said. I was saying that I read it in a biography of his. As to whether or not I know what I am talking about, I don't really need your approval to conduct my life.

[cstaylor]

Jack, I have read that book many times, and not once did Manchester conclude that Kyoto was a serious target _after_ the list had been presented to Secretary Stimson. He would have resigned before signing off on Kyoto as a target for _any_ bombing.

Kyoto _was_ on the list _before_ it was presented to Stimson, but it was never considered as a target afterwards.

There was a list of seven cities as potential targets, the two others you missed were Kokura and Yokohama (Yokohama since it was a port and close enough to Tokyo to make a credible warning to Tokyo).

I think you should stick to kogals and leave history to the educated.

[GuyJean]

I think you should stick to kogals and leave history to the educated.

Ouch!

GJ

[cstaylor]

Well, the man _is_ an expert skirt chaser... he only looks foolish when he ventures into less familiar territory.

[Jack]

Jack, I have read that book many times, and not once did Manchester conclude that Kyoto was a serious target
I think you should stick to kogals and leave history to the educated.

I would take kogals any day over history. Though I like the latter as well. I assume that you consider yourself one of the "educated" to whom history education should be entrusted?

[cstaylor]

Jack, I have read that book many times, and not once did Manchester conclude that Kyoto was a serious target
I think you should stick to kogals and leave history to the educated.

I would take kogals any day over history. Though I like the latter as well. I assume that you consider yourself one of the "educated" to whom history education should be entrusted?

Probably a bit more "educated" than you are. At the very least, I don't misquote authorities or conceal vital facts (such as Kyoto was never a serious target for the atom bomb) to an argument.

[kamome]

I need to weigh in on this load of horseshit:

How many more Holocaust memorials does this world need? I wonder is the US should also build a Japanese memorial to commemorate the murder of over 200,000 innocent civilians with two bombs. Oh, I forget, Japanese are not Jewish so their lives might not count as much.

Where the hell does this sentiment come from? Jack, you have posted comments in this forum that smack of anti-semitism, but I didn't speak up before.

For one thing, how do you make the leap from the lack of an American memorial to the victims of our atomic bombs to an American value judgement that Japanese lives are worth less than Jewish lives? It makes no sense at all. Holocaust memorials are a separate issue from whether the US should honor the Japanese killed by atomic bombs. By trying to make a link, you seem to have a serious chip on your shoulder, man.

And what is your complaint about the number of Holocaust memorials anyway? Shouldn't Germany memorialize the millions of Jews (and others) slaughtered at the hands of the Third Reich? Do you disagree that such a memorial is necessary to remind the public of what happens under a fascist, racist regime? Or do you prefer to ignore that it ever happened?

[ramchop]

It's a slow day on FG, so I'll ignore any little voices screaming "Don't go there":

Holocaust memorials are a separate issue from whether the US should honor the Japanese killed by atomic bombs. By trying to make a link, you seem to have a serious chip on your shoulder, man.

A link was made in the first post (not by Jack) and supported in some subsequent ones. Along the lines of: Germans are rembering the civilians they slaughtered, why don't the Japanese do they same?

Why can't this "link" be extended to other countries? Though I do agree much of Jack's logic/conclusions are screwed up.

[cstaylor]

In this case, it is simple: America was at war with Japan, Germany massacred her own citizens and citizens from occupied countries... should sound familiar to students of Japan's trip across the Asian continent.

[ramchop]

In this case, it is simple: America was at war with Japan, Germany massacred her own citizens and citizens from occupied countries... should sound familiar to students of Japan's trip across the Asian continent.

Numbers and intent. Yes I understand the initial link is much stronger than the second.

Is there a My Lai memorial? Or was America "at war" with South Vietnam?

[cstaylor]

Is there a My Lai memorial? Or was America "at war" with South Vietnam?

That's a good question. I haven't read much on Vietnam.

[kamome]

It's a slow day on FG, so I'll ignore any little voices screaming "Don't go there":

Holocaust memorials are a separate issue from whether the US should honor the Japanese killed by atomic bombs. By trying to make a link, you seem to have a serious chip on your shoulder, man.

A link was made in the first post (not by Jack) and supported in some subsequent ones. Along the lines of: Germans are rembering the civilians they slaughtered, why don't the Japanese do they same?

Why can't this "link" be extended to other countries? Though I do agree much of Jack's logic/conclusions are screwed up.

Ramchop, you're right that the link was made previously to argue that Japan should do as the Germans and memorialize those killed by Japanese aggression. I completely agree with this, and the parallel logic works for me.

However, Jack brought the US atomic bombings into the picture and I just don't see how that links to an argument against a Holocaust memorial. It's like he's an extreme Japan-apologist with an anti-semitic and anti-American streak. Make sense to you? Not to me.

[kamome]

Is there a My Lai memorial? Or was America "at war" with South Vietnam?

Yeah, the US probably should do more to recognize the atrocities it committed in Vietnam (and other countries too). There's an example of the US going abroad and doing harm to other civilians, like the Japanese did in WWII. Does that mean there are too many Holocaust memorials? No.

[Steve Bildermann]

Or was America "at war" with South Vietnam?

Just for clarification. The US has never 'declared' war since WWII. Everything else since has been described with various euphemisms.

The Korean war was a 'police action', the Vietnam war was an 'advisory conflict' and the Gulf war was a 'collaborative intervention' We are still waiting for the Iraq 'thing' to get it's name.

All these taken from the official record of the house budget committee.

Oh and it wouldn't have been a war with South Vietnam - it would have been with North Vietnam.

[ramchop]

Oh and it wouldn't have been a war with South Vietnam - it would have been with North Vietnam.

Odd that the village and inhabitants of My Lai were in South VN then :P

[GomiGirl]

The Korean war was a 'police action', the Vietnam war was an 'advisory conflict' and the Gulf war was a 'collaborative intervention' We are still waiting for the Iraq 'thing' to get it's name.

It was a "liberation" wasn't it? Or was it a pre-emptive strike? Or .. some suggestions would be welcome here...

Back on thread... in some of the countries I have visited, I have seen large buildings built with large donations from the Japanese government to atone for past actions. One that I can think of is in Papua New Guinea where I saw a number of buildings in Port Moresby that everybody knew were donations from the Japanese government.

[ramchop]

Back on thread... in some of the countries I have visited, I have seen large buildings built with large donations from the Japanese government to atone for past actions. One that I can think of is in Papua New Guinea where I saw a number of buildings in Port Moresby that everybody knew were donations from the Japanese government.

And here's the thread I was thinking of.

[Steve Bildermann]

Oh and it wouldn't have been a war with South Vietnam - it would have been with North Vietnam.

Odd that the village and inhabitants of My Lai were in South VN then :P

Exactly!