Environmentalists pursue Japan's whalers

[Takechanpoo]

by the way, why dont you guys severely handle a little piece of epic french scum aka coligy in the same way? eh?
its apparently a double standard. if you blame kuromanko by specious attitudes, that schizophrenic little piece of french shit should have been banned a long time ago.

[Samurai_Jerk]

by the way, why dont you guys severely handle a little piece of epic french scum aka coligy in the same way? eh?
its apparently a double standard. if you blame kuromanko by specious attitudes, that schizophrenic little piece of french shit should have been banned a long time ago.

WTF are you talking about? Coligny gets more shit on here than anyone. And rightfully so I might add.

[wagyl]

Maybe Take is Japanese after all: he is not answering my simple and direct questions about real demand for whalemeat in this country despite it being a follow-on from his own suggestion, but instead lashing out at a tangent, going into bat for Vancouverites of all things, anything to avoid the issue at hand. Tell me that is not a national trait.


A fascinating paradox: it is so often that those who call loudest for the banning of others are those who are most guilty of ban-worthy behaviour themselves. Maybe it is psychological projection, I'm not sure, but I have witnessed the phenomenon many times. Including perpetrated by Monsieur.

[Russell]

Maybe Take is Japanese after all: he is not answering my simple and direct questions about real demand for whalemeat in this country despite it being a follow-on from his own suggestion, but instead lashing out at a tangent, going into bat for Vancouverites of all things, anything to avoid the issue at hand. Tell me that is not a national trait.


A fascinating paradox: it is so often that those who call loudest for the banning of others are those who are most guilty of ban-worthy behaviour themselves. Maybe it is psychological projection, I'm not sure, but I have witnessed the phenomenon many times. Including perpetrated by Monsieur.

I still wonder whether he is really Japanese.

His avatar is quite offensive to Japanese people, in my opinion.

[wagyl]

His avatar is quite offensive to Japanese people, in my opinion.

That is a traditional Japanese art.

More traditional than harpooning whales in the Antarctic.

[kurogane]

Well, that went a bit over the top. My apologies for spouting off.

[Takechanpoo]

j-govt related organization and a few 3rd party ones need to investigate actual demand of whale meat.
until it, any speculations should be reserved.

[Wage Slave]

j-govt related organization and a few 3rd party ones need to investigate actual demand of whale meat.
until it, any speculations should be reserved.

Bullshit. Typical attempt to kick the ball into the long grass. This doesn't need research. They know there are thousands of tons sitting in expensive cold storage. They know how much was sold each year. It's childsplay to reach a judgement over whether more is needed. And it clearly isn't. They are a bit cagey about how much there is, but in 2012 there was 4,600 tons stashed away.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/japan-loses-appetite-for-whaling-industry-as-meat-sales-decline-1.2588526

[wagyl]

Furthermore, it is the gentleman who did the speculating first off who is suggesting that judgement be reserved.

Perhaps we can suggest a complete stop on all whale harvest until these proposed Japanese Government related and multiple third party investigations are completed. After all, "until then, all harvesting should be reserved."

Actually, no, maybe it does in fact need scientific research. We need to research a whalemeat eater to do this properly. And everyone knows that you cannot do non-fatal scientific research!

[Takechanpoo]

no matter what anyone said, im sure a creed that whale and dolphine are sacred and inviolable is placed at the core of anti-whalers claims.
their plausible claims are all added to reinforce the creed and to cover it with scientific lookings with hindsight.
we japanese would choose to waste national tax and harm j-internatinal reputation rather than to obey that shit.

[Coligny]

You're a bunch of morons bunched on a shaky rock... We already know, no need to remind us or to try to sell it as nationnul pride...

At the end of the day you are still that kid riding the shortbus and eating crayon... At a planetary scale...

[wagyl]

And thus we return to the theme mentioned many times in this thread: There are two parties in this drama. I honestly don't think you can say one wears a white hat and the other a black hat. They are symbiotic, each relies on the continued existence of the other. If one of them dies, the other will wither as well.

In other words I am sure that the whaling industry I beg your pardon, research body is happy for the protesters to continue. They even get some company and entertainment out in the blustery and lonely Southern Ocean, and a smokescreen allowing for national support, support which would not be there without the protesters to provide a cartoon-like target to consolidate public opinion. And I am damn certain that the protesters desire the continued existence of the whaling, otherwise the donations of carbon fibre seagoing vessels dries up, and they would miss their toys to smash into Goliath whaling boats and the sense of adventure they have now.

I don't think you will find anybody who will argue with your statement that the whaling protest relies on a belief that cetaceans have a special status. I think that is an emotional weakness on their part.
However, to make the choice to be bloody minded and continue on an uneconomic slaughter just because the other side is emotional is itself no more than an emotional response. It is not an argument and does not make anyone look good or clever.

But then again we have already established that the arguments on both sides are emotional. The mere act of retroactively deciding not to abide by the decision of the International Court of Justice for the sole reason that you didn't get your way already proved it.

I have said it before in this thread: neither side is going about this the right way. Neither side looks good.
I haven't said it before but I am truly starting to think it: the only victim in this is the whale population. It didn't ask for this, it doesn't have an opinion in this fight, and it is paying the price for being the pawn in a tired, juvenile emotional spat.

[Wage Slave]

Nonsense Tacky. That's just yet more distraction. I don't like the whaling done in the Antarctic by Japan because:

1. I have to pay for it through taxation when there is plenty of supply already in stock, little demand and plenty available in coastal waters. Note that Norway hunts whales where they have traditionally done so - in coastal waters. Actually, I don't really pay for it and neither do you because in case you hadn't noticed the Japanese Government has been running huge deficits for 20 years or so. Given the money isn't really there, why borrow yet more to spend on something of zero real utility to anyone?

2. It seems to me that having one last area of the world, Antartica, left pretty much preserved is important for real scientific study and an important heritage for our children and grandchildren. I assure you that if BP wanted to start exploring for oil down there I would be far more opposed to that than I am Japan, uniquely, hunting whales.

By the way, how many times a year do you actually eat whale? If the sole real object of this is to show that Japan can't be pushed around by the Mighty Whitey as Kuro suggested then I grant that that is valid and is probably useful to the world. However, I can think of lots of better ways to do it. The real whitey powers that be care about whales and wildlife reserves about as much as I care about whether I buy Eneos paraffin or Komeri paraffin.

[wagyl]

Eneos paraffin or Komeri paraffin.

The saviour of the whales! Both are cheaper than whale oil!

[Wage Slave]

Eneos paraffin or Komeri paraffin.

The saviour of the whales! Both are cheaper than whale oil!

Tis true. Didn't occur to me in all honesty but tis of course true.

[matsuki]

I have said it before in this thread: neither side is going about this the right way. Neither side looks good.
I haven't said it before but I am truly starting to think it: the only victim in this is the whale population. It didn't ask for this, it doesn't have an opinion in this fight, and it is paying the price for being the pawn in a tired, juvenile emotional spat.

Pretty much THIS except I would add the people/companies affected in Japan are economically motivated...whether it be old dudes in BFE Japan that are incapable of making a living in another field, the whale/dolphin sales, or the beneficiaries of this "research" bullshit funded by tax money. The J-emotional side of it is just an emotional reaction to this "Japanese traditional culture! vs. kokusai conformity" plight that is questionable at best and could be reasonable resolved like it has in places where the native populations are allowed to make limited catches. When you're travelling across the globe and overstocked with the shit, even with some demand, where the fuck is the balance there?

[Takechanpoo]

unfortunately i have to say i still havent gotten persuaded yet.
still no reason not to hunt and eat whale meat as much as needed, regardless of whether its tradition or disguising research.

all right! lets go hunt whales on aussies nose this year also!

[wagyl]

as much as needed

You keep saying that. How much is needed?

[matsuki]

as much as needed

You keep saying that. How much is needed?

When you have that much of it frozen and stockpiled, far more than is needed is being taken. As opposed to the other controversy, tuna...where there actually is demand.

[Mike Oxlong]

as much as needed

You keep saying that. How much is needed?

When you have that much of it frozen and stockpiled, far more than is needed is being taken. As opposed to the other controversy, tuna...where there actually is demand.

[Takechanpoo]

i recommend you guys to put out a rational proposal.

"hunt them as much as you actually need within the limits not to disturb their ecosystem once 2 or 3 years, not every year" etc...
and do not bring the cult guys like paul watson to the forefront.
and not a few japanese people will support the proposal.

[wagyl]

i recommend you guys to put out a rational proposal.

"hunt them as much as you actually need within the limits not to disturb their ecosystem once 2 or 3 years, not every year" etc...
and do not bring the cult guys like paul watson to the forefront.
and not a few japanese people will support the proposal.

That is not going to happen, mainly for the fact that Japan does not regard it as a hunt, so no one is going to give them a licence to hunt when they are not "hunting" at the current time. This is what happens when you lie. You cut off access to reasonable solutions, leaving only the whacko emotional activity, on both sides.

Anybody who knows anything about Japanese primary production statistics knows that this is unworkable for another reason. The figures for as much as is needed will be fudged. For example, we have figures for the production of Uonuma koshihikari for 2014 season. And we have records of sales of 2014 Uonuma koshihikari. No one can explain how the sales figures are greatly in excess of the production figures. It is a Magic Pudding (any guy who links to the Sydney Morning Herald will understand that reference without a wikilink). And a potential ally who you are pissing off knows this fact too, since the reports of Southern Ocean bluefin tuna taken by Japanese fisheries and the sales of Southern Ocean bluefin tuna in Japan show the same amazing Magic Pudding qualities. Once you lose someone's trust, it takes a lot to earn in back again.

[matsuki]

Not to mention Take's proposal doesn't even consider demand (or lack of) for dead whale.

[Salty]

This whale hunt - is not a whale hunt. It is an LDP vote hunt, and nothing more. The storage of the frozen and unwanted whale residue is also an LDP vote program - employment for LDP voters.

[wagyl]

Salty you like using this term LDP.

Other political parties have a different policy?

[Salty]

Salty you like using this term LDP.

Other political parties have a different policy?

Yes…

We will rectify the disparity in the value of votes.

https://www.dpj.or.jp/english/manifesto ... 141202.pdf

Give all Japanese citizens who are 18 years of age or older the right to vote. Carry out reforms of the election systems, administrative organizations, and the judiciary system to realize the constitutional principle of people's sovereignty and peace.

End the spending practice that gives budget priorities to wasteful large-scale public works projects, assistance to large corporations and major banks, and arms buildup, with the aim of establishing a fiscal and economic policy that puts emphasis on safeguarding the people's living conditions and providing social services; end the present tax system favoring large corporations and the wealthy and establish a taxation and social security systems based on the principle of shouldering burdens according to ability to pay.

http://www.jcp.or.jp/english/23rd_congress/program.html

[wagyl]

I see nothing about whaling there Salty. Keep on topic. Quite aside from the issue that there are very very few people employed by whaling and related storage of carcasses and amakudari organisations, it is not an efficient way of obtaining votes for one particular party over another. No one anywhere is making a claim that those who have a job in the whaling industry have a larger proportional vote than those who work in all other industries, that there is a disparity related to whaling related votes (if such a phenomenon of whaling related votes exists, which is why I raised this issue).

(Although you could say that "policy that puts emphasis on safeguarding the people's living conditions" includes supporting the continued employment of those very very few in whaling. Given JCP's anti-TPP stance I wouldn't be surprised if they did.)

[Salty]

I see nothing about whaling there Salty. Keep on topic. Quite aside from the issue that there are very very few people employed by whaling and related storage of carcasses and amakudari organisations, it is not an efficient way of obtaining votes for one particular party over another. No one anywhere is making a claim that those who have a job in the whaling industry have a larger proportional vote than those who work in all other industries, that there is a disparity related to whaling related votes (if such a phenomenon of whaling related votes exists, which is why I raised this issue).

(Although you could say that "policy that puts emphasis on safeguarding the people's living conditions" includes supporting the continued employment of those very very few in whaling. Given JCP's anti-TPP stance I wouldn't be surprised if they did.)

Hogwash (err, whale dung?). How many whalers live in Tokyo - where the greatest vote disparity exists? Whaling is very much a get out the vote program for the LDP. The LDP stays in power by obtaining just 25% of the voter eligible population. Many don`t vote since it is futile to resist the LDP, but for many of those who do vote - their vote is worth just 1/3 that of whalers, farmers, construction, etc. Very much on topic.

[wagyl]

I call bullshit bullshit. I have not been able to find figures for the workforce for the coldstorage of the three quarters offered to market which goes unsold, or of processors assigned to whalemeat or restaurant staff employed at whalemeat specialist restaurants, but otherwise I have clear figures for a grand total of 272 employed in the whaling industry. Can we agree that an overall total throughout the industry is in the ballpark of 500? If you think this country is controlled by 500 votes, well, I know someone in deep south Aichi who you would get along fine with. He likes to dream of a nightmare world, too.

Source: http://www.ifaw.org/sites/default/files ... n-ifaw.pdf

But even more indicative of your bullshit, my challenge to you was to point to where political parties other than LDP state that they will expressly stop subsidising whaling. You haven't done that. And there is a reason why...

Exhibit One
Akahata, mouthpiece of the Communist Party: "Preserve the Tradition and Culture of Whaling"

Exhibit Two
Report in the Fisheries Economics Newspaper: "The Democratic Party Committee on Whaling Measures Resolves to Continue Scientific Whaling in the Antarctic"

So stick that down your blowhole and snort it.

Normally I would apologise for puncturing your nightmare with facts, but I have already decided that you are a serial bullshitter.

[Yokohammer]

Wagyl: Although I don't think voters directly employed by the whaling industry are keeping the LDP afloat, I do think your figures are way low. As I remember there are about 18 government and semi-government organizations involved. Start with the fisheries agency, the institute of cetacean research, Kyodo Senpaku, and on and on ... and end up at the little eateries all around the country that serve whale, and the people who want to eat it. I think you'll end up with a number that is much larger than 500, although I haven't got the foggiest what that number might actually be. If I wasn't so damn exhausted I'd poke around and do some research, but I am thoroughly fucked for the day.


~ Tapatalking ~