47 Year Old American Killed In Nishi Azabu

[Coligny]

Not advocating anything that happened, but why is it murder?
Murder requires premeditation. I can see a lot of impulse at work here in this case. It does make a huge difference legally.

Ain't premeditation "just" aggravating ?

Murder is when you kill on purpose. Be it impulse or premeditation... me think...

If I see you crossing, don't like your haircut and accelerate. There is murder

If I know you are crossing everyday at 5 and decide to take the car to crush you when you cross there is murder with premeditation

If I don't see you crossing and run you over there is accident.

All 3 case ends up with dead meat on the radiator grill... But all are totally different (maybe)

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Ain't premeditation "just" aggravating ?

Murder is when you kill on purpose. Be it impulse or premeditation... me think...

If I see you crossing, don't like your haircut and accelerate. There is murder

If I know you are crossing everyday at 5 and decide to take the car to crush you when you cross there is murder with premeditation

If I don't see you crossing and run you over there is accident.

All 3 case ends up with dead meat on the radiator grill... But all are totally different (maybe)

You're right. It's proving that the purpose/intent to kill existed that establishes premeditation. But it's proving that exists which is the difficult matter.
In the case being discussed, it could theoretically come if the DJ kept choking the bloke after he'd gone unconscious or something like that. Proving it is hard, though, which is probably why he could avoid being charged with murder.
Again, I'm not defending the bloke. I can just see why a charge of murder would not be laid. A similar issue is going to be the focus of the Ichihashi trial, where he has been charged for murder, but will plead not guilty because he did not intend to kill her.

[matsuki]

You're right. It's proving that the purpose/intent to kill existed that establishes premeditation. But it's proving that exists which is the difficult matter.
In the case being discussed, it could theoretically come if the DJ kept choking the bloke after he'd gone unconscious or something like that. Proving it is hard, though, which is probably why he could avoid being charged with murder.
Again, I'm not defending the bloke. I can just see why a charge of murder would not be laid. A similar issue is going to be the focus of the Ichihashi trial, where he has been charged for murder, but will plead not guilty because he did not intend to kill her.

SDH, he kicked the guy in the balls from behind...pretty clear indicator he was intending some bodily harm. Considering it was not the first confrontation between the two suggests that there was some definite malice/premeditation on his part. Then choked him hard enough to crush his adams apple...and kill him. I don't see how that amount of force, long enough to kill the man, cannot be seen as intent. There is nothing accidental about that. The fact that he admitted to learning the choke from something he recently saw on TV seems like a play on being amateur clumsily trying to attempt something he saw on TV....but for any of you guys that have watched MMA, how many fighters have you seen die of strangulation or crushed adams apples when being choked out? Tha takes some serious force and time.

[Samurai_Jerk]

any of you guys that have watched MMA, how many fighters have you seen die of strangulation or crushed adams apples when being choked out? Tha takes some serious force and time.

It has nothing to do with force and time. It has to do with how the choke is applied. Properly applied choke holds that law enforcement and MMA fighters use do no attack the windpipe. They cut the flow of blood to your brain but still allow you to breath.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

SDH, he kicked the guy in the balls from behind...pretty clear indicator he was intending some bodily harm. Considering it was not the first confrontation between the two suggests that there was some definite malice/premeditation on his part. Then choked him hard enough to crush his adams apple...and kill him. I don't see how that amount of force, long enough to kill the man, cannot be seen as intent. There is nothing accidental about that. The fact that he admitted to learning the choke from something he recently saw on TV seems like a play on being amateur clumsily trying to attempt something he saw on TV....but for any of you guys that have watched MMA, how many fighters have you seen die of strangulation or crushed adams apples when being choked out? Tha takes some serious force and time.

I hear you. And by no means do I advocate what he did, which was savage. But I can see how he can argue is impulsive and not premeditated. Premeditated harm for sure, but murder is a harder one to pinpoint. I'd say the prosecution's best argument would be that he continued choking after the guy had lost consciousness, at which point the intention moved from inflicting harm to taking life....
It's things like this that contribute strongly to the 97.1% conviction rate here...prosecutors often don't pursue charges in which even they can see the element of doubt.
Note that Ichihashi is using this argument in his murder trial...Premeditation is not as easy to prove as it seems.

[matsuki]

It has nothing to do with force and time. It has to do with how the choke is applied. Properly applied choke holds that law enforcement and MMA fighters use do no attack the windpipe. T[color="Red"]hey cut the flow of blood to your brain but still allow you to breath.[/color]

...which takes force and time to have any effect. Maybe it was a bad example but my point is that the amount of force and the length of time this DJ guy used to choke the victim spells out "Die fucker die!" (which he did) rather than "hey guy, calm down." Then there's the kick to the balls from behind and yeah...probation worthy? Even without a death, wouldn't the injuries sustained from the assault be worth some jailtime?

[matsuki]

I hear you. And by no means do I advocate what he did, which was savage. But I can see how he can argue is impulsive and not premeditated. Premeditated harm for sure, but murder is a harder one to pinpoint. I'd say the prosecution's best argument would be that he continued choking after the guy had lost consciousness, at which point the intention moved from inflicting harm to taking life....
It's things like this that contribute strongly to the 97.1% conviction rate here...prosecutors often don't pursue charges in which even they can see the element of doubt.
Note that Ichihashi is using this argument in his murder trial...Premeditation is not as easy to prove as it seems.

Yeah, I see what you're saying from a technical standpoint and TIJ so of course they will only pursue a guaranteed conviction...but technicalities aside, dude obviously murdered the guy. At the very least, the intent was serious bodily injury...I mean a kick to the balls from behind?

Nobody commented on it but has no one gone after the DJ guy on probation? Did the family go after any of the media for defamation?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

...my point is that the amount of force and the length of time this DJ guy used to choke the victim spells out "Die fucker die!" (which he did) rather than "hey guy, calm down."

Agree! Best chance, but hard to prove....

...Then there's the kick to the balls from behind and yeah...probation worthy? Even without a death, wouldn't the injuries sustained from the assault be worth some jailtime?

Will definitely get time...but not too long.

This shite happens all the time in all sorts of cuntries. It sucks. But it's the same principle involved that gave OJ an extra decade or so to search for his wife's killers....

....Incidentally I was really surprised to learn some MMA rasslers had brains...

[Samurai_Jerk]

...which takes force and time to have any effect. Maybe it was a bad example but my point is that the amount of force and the length of time this DJ guy used to choke the victim spells out "Die fucker die!" (which he did) rather than "hey guy, calm down." Then there's the kick to the balls from behind and yeah...probation worthy? Even without a death, wouldn't the injuries sustained from the assault be worth some jailtime?

My point was that his windpipe got crushed because of how the choke was applied and not necessarily because it was done with a lot of force over a long period of time.

Choking someone out doesn't take much time or force if you have the coke in deep. You can put a guy to sleep in seconds.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

You can put a guy to sleep in seconds.

Sounds like some of the corporate presentations I used to give...

[matsuki]

if you have the [color="Red"]coke[/color] in deep. You can put a guy to sleep in seconds.

heh, cocaine is a hell of drug!

Yeah, I get what you're saying about how it was applied, but that's what I'm getting at. He applied windpipe crushing pressure long enough to kill the guy. Think about his nutsack attack as well a light tap to one's jewels is all it takes to take some people down. To kick a guy in the nuts from behind gives the impression that there was enough force to hurt his unborn children. Can't claim ignorance/accident there.



I dunno label it as something other than murder if you will but DJ Gaijin Killer receiving only 5 years probation after killing someone in a violent weasel-like attack doesn't seem like justice was served. Ancient Japanese tradition of taking responsibility and all.

[Mulboyne]

SDH, he kicked the guy in the balls from behind...

Where did you see that reported?

[Samurai_Jerk]

I get what you're saying about how it was applied, but that's what I'm getting at. He applied windpipe crushing pressure long enough to kill the guy.

I'm not here to defend the DJ because from the reports that I read when this case was still news, it did seem that he went way beyond what could be considered self defense or regular security duties.

My point is that just because it killed the guy doesn't mean it was something done with a tremendous amount of force over several minutes. An improperly applied choke hold can crush somebody's windpipe in seconds and then he could choke to death regardless of whether or not the attacker was still choking him. A properly applied choke hold (i.e. a sleeper hold) can put you out in under 10 seconds.

[matsuki]

Where did you see that reported?

One of the pages or links here said DJ Gaijinkiller admitted to kicking him in the groin and choking him from behind.

My point is that just because it killed the guy doesn't mean it was something done with a tremendous amount of force over several minutes. An improperly applied choke hold can crush somebody's windpipe in seconds and then he could choke to death regardless of whether or not the attacker was still choking him. A properly applied choke hold (i.e. a sleeper hold) can put you out in under 10 seconds.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I guess the argument then would be that if one can be so easily killed this way, DJ Gaijinkiller should not have used a choke at all.

Like I said before, even though he didn't get the murder conviction and they didn't prove intent, his violent attack resulted in death...5 years probation? How is that even an option unless it was a complete accident...not a violent attack?

[FG Lurker]

Maybe Jake can ask one of his friends to take the guy out...

[Mike Oxlong]

Apparently it's not ok to choke out Japanese patrons:

Bar manager arrested over death of customer due to headlock

Police said Friday they have arrested a Shinjuku bar owner after he allegedly performed a headlock on a customer, resulting in his death.

According to a report on TBS, police received an emergency call at around 11:30 p.m. on Wednesday night, saying that a drunk customer had hit an izakaya manager and was currently being restrained. Police rushed to the scene to find the 53-year-old customer lying unconscious. He was taken to hospital where he was pronounced dead.

During police questioning, the 57-year-old bar manager told officers the man had become violent when presented with the check, TBS reported. He was quoted by police as saying that he used too much force and went too far.