"Japan's Abe Is the World's Best Leader"

[wagyl]

Interesting background on multiple citizenship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_ ... ip#History

[Yokohammer]

Interesting background on multiple citizenship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_ ... ip#History

Ooh ... complicated.

I got through about half of that before I glazed over. I'll catch up on the rest later.

[Wage Slave]

It's morally OK, but not desirable, in my view to have a strictly monogamous relationship/divided loyalties policy in the case of adults who decide for their own reasons they wish to acquire a new citizenship. You know what you are getting into, why and you accept it - or not.

However, what about people who actually are both (or divided if you like) by birth and circumstances? What about someone who has and grew up with a Japanese mother and a British father? And further what if that person was born in the UK but mostly grew up in Japan. Don't they have a natural and proper right to both citizenships? And to me, denying them that is actually immoral. It's not a choice - It's what they are.

[wagyl]

In this day and age we look at multiple nationality as an individual maintaining the right to enter, live in, work in, and vote in more than one country. As I said, handy for the individual, even if it can cause some headaches for the countries involved.*

In the not so distant past (the fracturing of Yugoslavia springs to mind) multiple nationality meant that the individual had obligations to multiple states, for example of military service. It takes little imagination to see where that can be troublesome.

I suppose it all depends on whether you view the balance of the nationality relationship: is the burden of obligations greater on the individual or on the state?

As I say, the whole concept that multiple nationalities might perhaps be a desirable thing has only sprung up in the last fifty years. To be frank the attitude is "tolerable" rather than "desirable" in most cases, unless you are the Philippines, hoping that the children of the maids you exported all those years ago will invest in your country. I'm not sure that it is at the status of being an undeniable right which is it immoral to exclude.

Deeper reading http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/alumni ... ecture.htm

* Although I note a recent trend for countries to feel that they can now unilaterally revoke citizenship (as a bureaucratic, administrative act without judicial supervision) from holders of multiple nationality, if they don't like their way of thinking. Currently it is if they think you might have terrorist sympathies, but who knows what will be the next bogeyman they can use this as a precedent for.

[kurogane]

To responed to Wage Slave's comment above:
On the moral grounds I agree there. Widdle chilluns should not be punished or restricted by the coincidence of their birth. Nice reservation about the case of the Havillites among us as well. That is one of the few arguments where I go full Havill: you chose to become something else, so don't whine about having to live with your choices, and if you want to whine, don't choose to do that. It reeks of the Citizenship of Convenience stench, which muddies the water for everybody, and I can see why any state apparatus would be concerned about the potential repercussions of that. As we were by the Al Jazeera Cdn-Egyptian journalist, who wasn't by any stretch a Convenient Canadian, even though he whines like one.

Interesting tidbit from Wagyl's link: most countries are jus sanguinis (by blood). So, once again, Japan........not so unique unless compared to the 4 or 5 states most FGs come from

Any recent movement on the Japanese accepting dual nationality? That would be one development that might almost make Abe look not entirely intolerable.

[Mock Cockpit]

I think you are missing the point. Country A cannot, does not and will not dictate to Country B who can and cannot be a citizen of Country B. Country A can decide for Country A. Whatever citizenship laws Country A has it's irrelevant to Country B. There must be hundreds of thousands if not millions of Japanese citizens who are also citizens of other countries as those countries don't care whether dual citizenship is illegal in Japan or not. These lucky people were, are and will continue to be dual citizens regardless of what Japan decides because Japan only gets to decide who is a citizen of Japan. Whether it is tolerable or desirable is like arguing whether the colour of the sky is tolerable or desirable. Like the colour of the sky dual citizenship is not something you can agree or disagree with, it's a natural consequence of the (daft) idea of having separate nations.

[Takechanpoo]

Any recent movement on the Japanese accepting dual nationality? That would be one development that might almost make Abe look not entirely intolerable.

are you nuts?
if japan by any chance carry out fucking dual citizenship, its 120% probability that chinchon and kimchese undoubtedly take over this holy island.
and you know china just abolished one child policy, dont you? eh?

[Mock Cockpit]

Any recent movement on the Japanese accepting dual nationality? That would be one development that might almost make Abe look not entirely intolerable.

are you nuts?
if japan by any chance carry out fucking dual citizenship, its 120% probability that chinchon and kimchese undoubtedly take over this holy island.
and you know china just abolished one child policy, dont you? eh?

You lack the capacity to be able to talk about this issue as you have no knowledge of even the basic tenets. Embarrassing for you really.

[Wage Slave]

Although I think there is a certain tolerance. From the Wikipedia article linked above:

Possible (but not automatic) loss of citizenship if people with multiple citizenships do not renounce their other citizenships after reaching the age of majority or within a certain period of time after obtaining multiple citizenships, such as Japan

The source is:

http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/information/tcon-01.html

If you fail to make the choice of nationality within the above-stated period, you may be required by the Minister of Justice to choose one of the nationalities you possess, and in some cases, you may lose your Japanese nationality.

And one method of making your choice is:

II.The method of making a declaration to choose Japanese nationality

You are required to submit a notification of a declaration to choose Japanese nationality, in which you swear that you choose to be a Japanese national and that you renounce the foreign nationality, to the office of city, ward, town or village (if you live in Japan) or to the embassy or the consulate of Japan (if you live abroad).

So a bit of nod, wink, don't ask, don't tell going on methinks. On top of all that, even if you are required to produce the paperwork showing that you actually have formally renounced, many countries grant an indefinite right to reclaim.

[Mock Cockpit]

So a bit of nod, wink, don't ask, don't tell going on methinks. On top of all that, even if you are required to produce the paperwork showing that you actually have formally renounced, many countries grant an indefinite right to reclaim.

Or a pragmatic realisation that laws against dual citizenship are for all practical purposes impossible to enforce and exist only to mollify the "love it or leave it" knuckle dragging crowd.

[Samurai_Jerk]

So a bit of nod, wink, don't ask, don't tell going on methinks. On top of all that, even if you are required to produce the paperwork showing that you actually have formally renounced, many countries grant an indefinite right to reclaim.

Or a pragmatic realisation that laws against dual citizenship are for all practical purposes impossible to enforce and exist only to mollify the "love it or leave it" knuckle dragging crowd.

There's another thread about this but I'm too lazy to do a search. Japan can't take away your other nationality but they can enforce it by taking away Japanese nationality. It seems that they won't do this if you were born Japanese. However, if you naturalize and don't renounce your other citizenship they might and apparently have been known to do so.

I also remember a discussion a few years ago (another thread I'm too lazy to search for) about allowing dual nationality in Japan for special cases. The were a little unhappy some former Japanese had won noble prizes as Americans. They also wanted to allow it for athletes and such for international competition.

Speaking of athletes what about the Reed family of ice skaters? Japan seems ok with them being dual nationals though I think one of them gave up US citizenship.

[wagyl]

I think you are missing the point. Country A cannot, does not and will not dictate to Country B who can and cannot be a citizen of Country B. Country A can decide for Country A. Whatever citizenship laws Country A has it's irrelevant to Country B.

So individual X, citizen of country A and of country B, is currently in country B. Is it right that X, while in B, is subject to obligations imposed by A on its citizens? Is X able to claim the protections afforded to citizens of A while he is in B? Is B meant to discriminate in this case between X and other people who are citizens of only B? There have been wars fought over this kind of issue: while recognising that British subjects in America at the end of the War of Independence had positively abandoned their connection to the British crown, those who emigrated after the war were not considered to have severed that connection, and when Britain needed sailors for the Royal Navy they were very happy to find them anywhere they could, including American citizens born in Britain and emigrated since independence. One of the causes of the War of 1812. Of course at that time nationality was considered to be something granted to you by the state, and an individual could not unilaterally extinguish that relationship, so it is a little different to the present day, but it illustrates the issues involved when a dual citizen bears obligations to the other nation while in one of the nations he is a citizen of.

Another potential sticky situation is the internment camps for foreign enemies. Does B put citizens of A in a camp, and does that include X?

I do understand your clarified point regarding the absurdity of A making rules for B about who is a citizen.
I hope you also understand that there were real reasons why multiple nationality was until recently strictly discouraged, and why it is not unreasonable for country J to try to avoid those issues, while it is also most likely lifting no finger to make sure that the rules are being followed to the letter every single time.

[Mock Cockpit]

Country J saying they don't encourage dual citizenship is like saying I don't encourage the sky to be blue. The sky is in fact blue, people are in fact dual citizens whether encouraged, discouraged or ignored. Short of dismantling the whole system of separate nations (there's an idea) I don't see how it could be otherwise. It is a natural and inevitable consequence of that system.

[wagyl]

So, does Becky get locked up in the Gulag when Monachy Thunderdome comes to pass: Two Monarchs enter, one Monarch leaves?

(To simplify the question, ignore any other reasons why Becky should be locked up and the key thrown away, apart from the fact that she potentially has multiple nationalities)

[Mock Cockpit]

So, does Becky get locked up in the Gulag when Monachy Thunderdome comes to pass: Two Monarchs enter, one Monarch leaves?

(To simplify the question, ignore any other reasons why Becky should be locked up and the key thrown away, apart from the fact that she potentially has multiple nationalities)

It's irrelevant to the discussion. As it is illegal to render someone stateless under international law the only situation where someone can be stripped of Japanese citizenship is when they are a citizen of another country. Therefore a dual citizen. It's just logic, not something to be for or against. Making a law that says dual citizenship is illegal is for domestic political reasons only and designed to appease the dim and fearful. Take is the perfect example.

[wagyl]

I disagree that it is an irrelevant issue.

If Becky was a citizen of Japan and a citizen of the United Kingdom, and she was in Japan, and Japan decided to incarcerate all United Kingdom citizens, is Becky a UK citizen in this case or not?

[Mock Cockpit]

I disagree that it is an irrelevant issue.

If Becky was a citizen of Japan and a citizen of the United Kingdom, and she was in Japan, and Japan decided to incarcerate all United Kingdom citizens, is Becky a UK citizen in this case or not?

You can propose all the absurd and nonsensical scenarios that you like. It's irrelevant to whether people are dual citizens or not.

[wagyl]

I wonder just how absurd or nonsensical that is. After all, the forced incarceration of Japanese citizens by the US less than 75 years ago has just been highlighted by another thread.

I do have sympathy for your argument. Country A sets the rules one way, country B sets the rules another way. Potentially citizen X falls under both rules. Potentially citizen Y falls under neither. The international community bends over backwards to stop Y happening. There were very real efforts 85 years ago to harmonise nationality rules so that X didn't happen either, but that didn't come about. Some countries require that you give up other nationalities when you acquire theirs (and I recognise your valid statement that it is truly questionable whether they can enforce that). Other countries say that there is no way that the individual can abandon citizenship, even if they want to.

I suppose you can say that the Japanese approach to this issue is about 20 years behind the average. In which case, you can also say that it is more up to date and progressive on this issue than it is on the banking system.

Perhaps you can answer me this: if is is a natural and logical result of the way that nationality rules are in different countries that dual citizenship exists (and indeed there are documented cases of it existing 200 years ago), is it not also a natural and logical result of the way that nationality rules are in different countries that statelessness exists?

[Mock Cockpit]

Perhaps you can answer me this: if is is a natural and logical result of the way that nationality rules are in different countries that dual citizenship exists (and indeed there are documented cases of it existing 200 years ago), is it not also a natural and logical result of the way that nationality rules are in different countries that statelessness exists?

I would tend to agree with this and the fact that, as there are dual citizens despite laws to the contrary, there are also stateless people would suggest to me that the model of the sovereign state is an idea whose time has passed. People however remain so hopelessly embedded in the idea of 'their" country that any realistic reform in this area is impossible, a failure of imagination and vision more than anything.

[kurogane]

After all, the forced incarceration of Japanese citizens by the US less than 75 years ago has just been highlighted by another thread.

Fortunately, all of those cases have been negated by the ensuing instances of involuntary incarceration.



Nice work, son.

Mock Cock,

You're arguing emotionally. We all liked Dr. McCoy too, but Spock was always right in the end. Except maybe for that one where Kirk went space walkabout. And even then, Spock had hope. That is how they found him, after all.

[Mock Cockpit]

After all, the forced incarceration of Japanese citizens by the US less than 75 years ago has just been highlighted by another thread.

Fortunately, all of those cases have been negated by the ensuing instances of involuntary incarceration.



Nice work, son.

Mock Cock,

You're arguing emotionally. We all liked Dr. McCoy too, but Spock was always right in the end. Except maybe for that one where Kirk went space walkabout. And even then, Spock had hope. That is how they found him, after all.

I know your trying to patronise me but it's really just coming across as the same passive aggressive bullshit that everyone here puts up with on a daily basis. Give it a spell champ.

[wagyl]

I disagree. Mock Cockpit is first saying that multiple nationality exists, and it is a necessary side effect of the nationality system as it stands today, with different rules for different countries, as is the case of people who fall into statelessness. He tries to avoid saying it is right or wrong. He says that Japan is playing a futile game trying to deny multiple nationality in its citizens. That I cannot completely agree with, but he is looking at it as "Japan is trying to stop country U recognising a certain individual as a citizen." I think a better expression of what Japan is trying to do is "if you choose Japanese citizenship in adulthood, we require that you abandon any others you have. If you are born with multiple citizenship, we require you to make an election at a certain age." The implementation of these rules may, however, be a little cack-handed, and that may be partly a deliberate policy.

By the way, note:

that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen....
I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, so help me God.

God help you.

[kurogane]

I know your trying to patronise me .........

If I was I didn't know it, so I apologise. I was trying to make an obscure Star Trek reference, for which I refuse to apologise. That would be illogical, after all. Still, the apology is sincere. I do firmly disagree with the thrust of your argument though. Japan's policy is the normal standard. Your argument is an emotional one based on situation.


FTR, the only proper born duals that need to choose are the Gosh! Born with 2! LOLzzzzzzzzzz BFF WhaddaIdonau!?? types. Everybody else just keeps their head down. I know both. The former are intolerable, and almost deserve their fate. Usually born of Japanese mothers that take names like Kate, even though their name is Keiko.

[matsuki]

I always wondered how my friends who "had to choose" were known to the J-immigration people to be kiddos with dual nationalities?? Some weren't even "haafu," just happened to be born abroad and scored a bonus citizenship.

[Coligny]

Dear god that book is boring as fuck...
I'm considering cleaning the cat shitter while reading it as an escape...

[Coligny]

Minimizing baggage is always a good countermeasure (provided one does not have a woodworking hobby ), even if things turn out to become nasty in a different way.

Baggage is probably my biggest problem, but it's not just physical baggage. In addition to the house, cars, and stuff crammed in every available corner, there are sources of essential income, and the human connections. Stuff can be replaced (or done without), but the rest is not so easy. I will be thinking about workarounds.

Book availble as english kindle on amazon japan...

image.jpg

It want to be Tom Clancy real hard. Have to check it. It' seems to be a chinese version of Red Storm Rising (840y ).

image.jpg

Also... Since we are there... Don't forget this book serie by John Mardsen:

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(Dun't forget I have furst dib' on Fi and the actresse playing the main brunette is a muff diver)

Dear god that book is boring as fuck...
I'm considering cleaning the cat shitter while reading it as an escape...

[Samurai_Jerk]

Public support for Japan's Abe rebounds after security law: polls

Public support for Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has rebounded since his government rammed through unpopular security legislation, according to polls published Monday, as he re-focuses on the struggling economy.

In September, parliament in the officially pacifist nation passed the contentious security bills, opening the door for Japanese troops to engage in combat overseas for the first time since the end of World War II.

The legislation was met with strong public resistance and pounded the popularity of the conservative Abe, who swept to power in late 2012 on a ticket to kickstart the long-laggard economy.

But on Monday, a weekend poll conducted by the leading Nikkei business daily and TV Tokyo found that support for Abe had rebounded eight points from October to 49 percent -- a level last seen this summer as debate raged over the then proposed security legislation.

[matsuki]

BS Poll? Or is this a result of impaired short-term memory of those surveyed?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Japan seeks more sales tax hike exemptions, a setback for fiscal discipline

Japan's ruling coalition is arranging to broaden exemptions in a planned sales tax hike to cushion a blow to the flagging economy - a welcome move for consumers but a setback to fiscal discipline.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) and small coalition ally Komeito are in the final stages of a deal to exempt both fresh and processed foods from higher sales tax when it is raised to 10 percent from 8 percent in April 2017.

The exemption would lead to a loss of revenue worth more than 1 trillion yen ($8.19 billion) - about a fifth of tax income brought by the planned tax hike. The government must now scramble for alternative funding sources to cover the revenue hole.

The LDP had initially sought to limit the tax-hike exemption to only fresh foods, but it has caved into Komeito's demand that processed foods be also exempted to support low-income groups.

"They have come close to a deal. I want them to achieve the best results," Abe told reporters on Friday.

The move is widely seen as politically-motivated and marks a victory for Komeito, who wants to appeal to voters hit hard by last year's sales tax rise to 8 percent from 5 percent, ahead of the July upper house election.

[Yokohammer]

Thinking about this ...

At a time when such a surprising number of Japanese are actually living below the poverty line, is any kind of consumption tax increase really a good idea? The more I think about it, the more it looks like a very shortsighted move.

Japan's economic troubles hit single-parent families and children especially hard