JapanInc OBEYS the Smirking Chimp!

[GuyJean]

On the whole, it sounds like we're largely in agreement.

I'd say so.. Like I said in my original post, I keep jumping back and forth over either side of the fence. Your links and references are helping me in my decision, but what's really codifying my recent anti-war stance is what Ritter is saying..

And I'm still confused as to how all the attention moved from Been Laiden, to Sodom. It seems like if the US put as much effort and energy into finding BL as they are with this war march, he'd be either caught or dead..

GJ

[GuyJean]

Guy, consider me your own personal assistant. Every time you go over the fence, I'll do my darnedest to provide some much buried evidence to try to give you a hand back over.

Cool, thanks! How the hell do you know all this? Do you work for the UN?

I participated in the Model United Nations (Nigeria) in San Fran back in 95, but haven't been up to date on many of the current resolutions.. Aside from getting the diluted versions from the media.

I got lots of Ritter I transcribed (painfully) from several of his presentations if there comes a need.

Thanks for the offer. He was in Japan a couple weeks ago, and I saw a lot of interviews with him. Again, I was impressed at the fact 1) he's a former Marine, and 2) he'd been in Iraq with the first inspectors. His passion against US agression was persuasive..

If I have any further questions, I'll get back to you. Did you register with FG? Sometimes we have some great discussions. Other times, it's just silliness.

I'm hitting the sack..

GJ

[Kurofune]

We will keep 'defending Japan' because our countries are very interconnected.

Of course we will. It's not a question of "The US won't defend Japan unless Japan defends the US" at all. It's more an issue of, our countries our friends, and we've got their back no matter what so they're doing the honorable thing and returning the favor. Sure, they don't HAVE to, but it's still the right thing to do.

I'm sure you'd like it to be that way, which says a lot about the good person you are. Unfortunately, these things have nothing to do with honor or friendship and everything to do with money. Inhumane shit happens all over the world, but the US doesn't get involved because there's no money in it. If a Japan had a military, I doubt they'd do any better.

Or were you being sarcastic?

[ramchop]

Is a democratically elected government chosen to act on the will of the people or in the best interests of the people?

The current situation clearly exposes the problem of trying to "represent" democracy. You have democracy or you don't. You don't "represent" it as in "representative democracy". Moreover, to question the democratic will of the people at a time like this is to say that democracy only counts when nothing important is at stake, in which case, you don't have a democracy, do you. It is arrogance beyond the pale to say that you won't accept democracy because people are too stupid to know what to do]

Nice theory, but how do you run such an ideal democracy? Do you rely on CNN polls to determine what the people want? Regular referenda? Surely the government is elected to make the decisions. I'll never understand why Bush was elected, but he was, and is the chief representative of the American people.

This is a world issue though, and should be decided at the UN.

[Steve Bildermann]

I'd like to gently point out that the US is not a Democracy it's a Republic

'I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

It really is an important difference and you can read more here:

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html

[cstaylor]

I'd just like to add my favourite James Madison quote. "Landholders ought to have a share in the government to support these invaluable interests and check the other many. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority."

Of course! This is the reason for the creation of the U.S. Senate. The Romans understood this as well: if the general public could vote themselves money from the general treasury, all would be lost.

The trouble with quotes, especially short ones, is that they don't bring along the context in which they were written

[cstaylor]

Jefferson had a problem with slavery, as did Washington (the only member of this group that actually freed his slaves in his will).

::cough:: So, what group of enlightened individuals on the Continent could hold a candle to these men? Maybe the French revolutionaries... the steps towards freedom are slow, and both the American and French revolutions were a first step in that process.

[ramchop]

the steps towards freedom are slow

Indeed, so why does the Western world claim the moral authority to drag others kicking and screaming into the 21st century?

[cstaylor]

the steps towards freedom are slow

Indeed, so why does the Western world claim the moral authority to drag others kicking and screaming into the 21st century?

I agree. Let the North Koreans eat sawdust... I mean, "who's to say" (that classic argument stopper from high-school debate) that it's anyone's business but Kim's about his people?

[ramchop]

I agree. Let the North Koreans eat sawdust... I mean, "who's to say" (that classic argument stopper from high-school debate) that it's anyone's business but Kim's about his people?

Well firstly it's Kim's people who should stand up to their idiot dictator. (not going to happen)

There's also the arguement that Korea should be a unified country, so South Koreans should be next in line to have their say.

After that it is a world decision (not a "Western" world decision), especially if NK is threatening its neighbours.


The UN may be seen as toothless and limp wristed, but personally I think its voice should supercede that of the chain rattling hawks.

OK, so they might not resolve the Iraq issue in time for a spring invasion. It'll be less than a year until conditions are favourable again, is that really such a long time to wait? (especially as "freedom is a slow process" anyway)

I hope it's the security council which decides the Iraq issue. If they decide on military action then so be it. I also hope that blackmail and bribery don't come into the picture with regards to the smaller guest members' votes.

[groovewonder]

In the first Gulf War, roughly 300 brave Americans lost their lives. Assuming that each of these soldiers shed an average of eight pints of blood, that works out to roughly a pint of American blood shed per 60 million barrels of Kuwaiti crude saved from the clutches of Saddam. If you ask me, that's a pretty darn good deal. If we can manage to swing a similar trade this time around, then I say, "Bombs away."

We should also know what kind of blood we're giving up. Is it O-positive, the universal donor? I'd be more reluctant to part with that than some useless AB junk. If Bush and Rumsfeld spill, say, 100,000 gallons of B-negative or AB-positive soldier blood for an equivalent amount of primo Mideast oil, that may be well worth considering.

The Onion always puts things in perspective. http://www.theonion.com/onion3906/point_the_iraq_invasion.html

[cstaylor]

After reading Federalist Papers 9 & 10 plus about 70% of the link you provided (don't worry, I promise to finish it all) I am convinced that I didn't take Madison out of context. Madison's fear, as I read it, is a fear of a leveling spirit and a potential for democracy to bring agrarian reform and other measures to reduce economic inequality.

Which is why Madison was the last of the Federalist presidents.

I don't need to say that both were slave owners (as you acknowledge of Washington)

Yes, and I seem to remember reading that most of the world trading in human bondage at that time. Fortunate for you that most of the world's needs for human slavery have been replaced with unthinking automatons. Try living like the 18th century, and then we'll talk.

I was unaware that there was a contest for the most enlightened group of North Americans.

I'm sorry, I should have made it more clear: I was referring to Europe, not the New World. My point was that someone needed to make a step. The Americans started the ball rolling, and the French picked it up and ran with it.

It's my understanding that Madison was rather disappointed with the way things turned out.

When in time? Right after the revolution? After his presidency?

We're getting quite a bit away from Smirking Silver-spoon Oil Chimps and Iraq, though...

Which would you rather discuss? Bush is a great example of why speech classes are vital to future world leaders.

[cstaylor]

That's okay, I forgot the word "was" between "world" and "trading"

[cstaylor]

It is estimated that there are up to 20 million slaves in the world today in African and South Asia. I'm not sure what the above means. It sounds like an excuse for slavery, but I know that can't be what you are saying.

What I'm saying is that it's perfectly easy for you to point your finger at slavery and say "bad bad!" without living through the times yourself. Why don't you try and get some work done... but first turn off all of the electricity and heat. Now go and make a fire in the fireplace, cook your food over a wood-burning stove, and then try and get something done.

Now, am I saying that treating people as animals was moral? No... but if Washington thought it was moral, why did he free his slaves after his death?

[Taro Toporific]

The Onion always puts things in perspective. http://www.theonion.com/onion3906/point_the_iraq_invasion.html

So does the Guardian UK today (Feb. 26, 2003) puts things in perspective...

So, what's North Korea these days? If you're committed to pursuing these stupid analogies, you can't make North Korea, Korea, because it wouldn't be an analogy, plus we've already said that Iraq is Korea. But you'll be pleased to know that I've trawled through the history books for you and can reveal that North Korea is, in fact, Japan in 1636: a weird rogue state from which foreigners were expelled en masse and the indigenous population forbidden to travel abroad. No, OK, they didn't have nukes back then, the Japs - but their military machinations were ignored by the western world, which had much bigger battles to fight.