JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

[wuchan]

****GROUNDED****

Japan's two leading airlines grounded their fleets of Boeing 787s

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/16/us-boeing-ana-idUSBRE90F01820130116

[yanpa]

I will keep flying to Japan on dumpy old 767 and 777 United planes with cranky service staff. Not sure if ANA operates a 787 out of Dulles anyways.

You should be safe for a while:

787 emergency landing: Japan grounds entire Boeing Dreamliner fleet

Plane makes emergency landing at Takamatsu airport, western Japan, in latest safety scare for troubled new aircraft

Japan's largest airline, ANA, and its competitor JAL have each grounded their entire fleet of Boeing 787 Dreamliners after an emergency landing due to a smoke alarm in the cockpit – the most dramatic of a spate of incidents involving the troubled aircraft over the past week and since its inception.

All Nippon Airways said the plane had been evacuated, with its eight crew and all 129 passengers exiting safely on inflatable slides. Instruments in the cockpit indicated there had been a battery malfunction and the pilot had noticed a strange smell.


...moar...

[Taro Toporific]

DailyGomiuri_Promoting_Conservation.png

twitter.com/DailyGomiuri

[Taro Toporific]

I'm still waiting to see how many of the problems can be sourced to Japanese supplied components...

Deepening Crisis for the Dreamliner
NYTimes.com | 2013/01/17
...The Japanese manufacturer GS Yuasa, which makes batteries for the Dreamliner, declined to comment on the jet’s troubles. Shares in the manufacturer, based in Kyoto, dropped 4.5 percent. Another Japanese company, Toray, which manufacturers the carbon fiber that reinforces the jet’s fuselage, fell 4.1 percent, while Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, which makes the wings, fell 3.2 percent...more...

[Tsuru]

I recall saying the FAA was the regulatory equivalent of Wyatt Earp, after watching this and getting back on my chair I feel I have to revise this opinion slightly.

Regardless of the shit that went on at the supplier, accepting the non-conforming parts for fitting anyway, beating them with steel hammers to make them fit? Manually redrilling holes? Spraypainting the damaged parts green again so they look nice and original? What in the everloving fuck, Boeing? I had heard rumors of the same kind of managerial ham-handedness with regards to the 787 project, but this just blew me away.

With regards to the grounding: I had a funny feeling this was coming, and it definitely seems that grounding the Japanese fleet of dreamliners indefinitely was the right choice. It's probably only a matter of time until the grounding becomes global.

Kudos to ANA and JAL for taking decisive action, I has to be said that as it stands the grounding is voluntary: no government agency told them to do it.

They were saying on the news yesterday that the 787 is about 35% made in Japan.

While that is of course true, it still says "Boeing" on the side, and not "FHI" or "Yuasa". The fact that they use suppliers does not absolve Boeing of any responsibility. It is still their job to make sure every single complete aircraft is safe.

[American Oyaji]

They were saying on the news yesterday that the 787 is about 35% made in Japan.

As opposed to HondaJet which is built in the USA?

It's a good thing they grounded these suckers.

[Tsuru]

Video of the evacuation of the ANA 787, courtesy of one of the passengers.

[s]Water appears to be leaking from the aircraft right underneath where the main battery is located, which was the problem on this particular occasion. (The APU battery which was the problem in Boston is located behind the wing. The main bat is in the forward EE bay behind the nose gear) Could this mean there is an active fire/thermal suppression system? Time to hit those books again...[/s] Nope, just smoke coming out of the reverse-flow smoke evacuation system... the large-ish hole with the long streak trailing behind it. The mark on the ground appears to be a marking (number 2?) on the taxiway.

[Coligny]

Water based fire suppression system on planes ? used for battery fires ? I know boeing went out of their way to fuck this plane... But that seems really hardcore...

[yanpa]

Salient thread on PPRuNe: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5053 ... rning.html

[Mike Oxlong]

They were saying on the news yesterday that the 787 is about 35% made in Japan.

While that is of course true, it still says "Boeing" on the side, and not "FHI" or "Yuasa". The fact that they use suppliers does not absolve Boeing of any responsibility. It is still their job to make sure every single complete aircraft is safe.

Grounded Boeing 787 Dreamliners Use Lithium-Ion Batteries Made by a Japanese Company

The battery manufacturer GS Yuasa, based in Kyoto Prefecture, uses lithium cobalt oxide electrodes which are apparently prone to overheating...

[matsuki]

They were saying on the news yesterday that the 787 is about 35% made in Japan.

While that is of course true, it still says "Boeing" on the side, and not "FHI" or "Yuasa". The fact that they use suppliers does not absolve Boeing of any responsibility. It is still their job to make sure every single complete aircraft is safe.

Grounded Boeing 787 Dreamliners Use Lithium-Ion Batteries Made by a Japanese Company

The battery manufacturer GS Yuasa, based in Kyoto Prefecture, uses lithium cobalt oxide electrodes which are apparently prone to overheating...

No doubt Boeing will have to take responsibility in the end...but dealing with factories/suppliers always comes with risk. I've had 1,000 units made of a product, asked for samples before sending payment, only to find out the samples were not taking from the 1,000 just made but a separate batch (and the 1,000 units were made with colors reversed because a manager at the factory, without consulting me, decided they were wrong)

I wouldn't be surprised to find that whatever testing is done to the batteries (if any) by Boeing did not reveal any problems with the batteries whereas the potential problems were foreseeable by GS Yuasa, possibly even discovered and they pulled some shit to cover it up. (Remember, TIJ)

[Harhar]

Now the FAA is grounding the plane: http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/16/news/co ... ce=cnn_bin That was front page news on CNN for like 3 minutes, and then we found out that Manti Te'O's girlfriend story was a hoax: http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/16/sport/man ... ?hpt=hp_t1 which took over

[Coligny]

I wouldn't be surprised to find that whatever testing is done to the batteries (if any) by Boeing did not reveal any problems with the batteries whereas the potential problems were foreseeable by GS Yuasa, possibly even discovered and they pulled some shit to cover it up. (Remember, TIJ)

Not to defend a Jap company... But LiPo problems traditionnally come from external factors/out of spec environement...

But must remember that Sony pioneered the whole "exploding battery" market few years ago...

[matsuki]

I wouldn't be surprised to find that whatever testing is done to the batteries (if any) by Boeing did not reveal any problems with the batteries whereas the potential problems were foreseeable by GS Yuasa, possibly even discovered and they pulled some shit to cover it up. (Remember, TIJ)

Not to defend a Jap company... But LiPo problems traditionnally come from external factors/out of spec environement...

But must remember that Sony pioneered the whole "exploding battery" market few years ago...

All I know is piercing them gives you instant fire

[Coligny]

You really can't resist the urge to put your dick into anything that lay in front of you...

It will end badly someday...

[matsuki]

You really can't resist the urge to put your dick into anything that lay in front of you...

It will end badly someday...

If I had tested that theory with my dick, I'd probably be splattered on all over the walls of an AKB concert. (might as well do the world a favor and take out as many pedophiles with me)

[Mike Oxlong]

Charred Lithium-Ion Battery in ANA's 787 Dreamliner

[Coligny]

Come on, Thales (ex Thomson CSF) would never do that on purpose...

[matsuki]

ehehe

GS Yuasa Searched by FAA, Japan Ministry After 787s Grounded

Jan. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Japan’s Transport Ministry and U.S. regulators searched GS Yuasa Corp.’s headquarters in Kyoto in a widening probe into battery faults that have grounded Boeing Co.’s 787 Dreamliner fleet.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomber ... z2Ib7EHU4E

[Coligny]

Yea... try to send "us regulators" in Thales headquarter ... if they could bring their own bodybags for their ride back home that would be nice...

[GomiGirl]

Japanese Company Made Battery That Caused Boeing 787 Fire

Recent trouble with Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner passenger jet – specifically its lithium-ion battery catching fire led to Japan grounding its fleet of 787 planes.

But… who makes the lithium-ion battery? Say hello to GS Yuasa Corp. which hoped its huge sale to Boeing would allow it to make its first profit from that style of battery.

You can see a YouTube Japanese-language news video of GS Yuasa seeing a big drop in its stock prices recently:

[Taro Toporific]

JAPAN'S ROLE IN MAKING BATTERIES FOR BOEING QUESTIONED
Quid pro quo? 'Yes, absolutely. But no one will talk about it, and no one can prove it'
New York Times | January 25, 2013
As the search for the cause of smoldering batteries in Boeing’s grounded 787 Dreamliner continues, investigators and Congressional oversight committees may want to look into a related and potentially sensitive issue: how was the Japanese company GS Yuasa chosen to manufacture the innovative but now suspect lithium-ion batteries on the 787?
No one has claimed that GS Yuasa was chosen for the 787 on anything but merit. But Boeing has long been dogged by suspicions that in return for its awarding major contracts to Japanese companies, which also receive subsidies from Japan’s government, the country’s airlines buy Boeing aircraft almost exclusively...
...Boeing added that “GS Yuasa provides the batteries under subcontract to Thales,” the French company responsible for the 787’s electrical systems...
More...

[Coligny]

A polite way to say that you do business in Japan like in every other 3rd world banana dictatorship...

[matsuki]

TOKYO: Japan’s transport ministry said Monday safety inspectors had found no major problem on the production line making batteries for Boeing’s Dreamliner, further muddying the waters in a worldwide probe.

“We have found no major quality or technical problem,” an official at the ministry said on condition of anonymity, as Japanese and American safety inspectors ended a week-long probe at battery maker GS Yuasa.

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/japan-says ... t-1.209062

Not that I trust Japan's transport ministry (let alone an anonymous "official" there) but if not the batteries...then?

[Coligny]

act of god d00d...

Plus... if the doc posted by Tsuru is genuine...

...Trust no one mista Mulder...

[Tsuru]

Looking at the pictures of the two destroyed batteries I have to say that the blue steel casing actually did a pretty good job keeping the fire contained. The venturi smoke evac system did the rest in the case of the ANA jet... in the JAL case it of course was not working as the system requires the plane to be in the air. However you slice it the 787 will be back in the air fairly soon, the only thing is how Boeing and the FAA will decide to spin it. Maybe there will be a battery changeout to a safer type of lithium battery, but for now it seems they have painted themselves in a corner, demanding the installation of this type of Li unit when the aircraft was being developed. Backpedalling on this now will mean loss of face for the FAA as well as Boeing.

With regards to the Al Jaz documentary: I have no reason to suspect its allegations are unfounded. You don't take on a company the size of Boeing if you are not absolutely 100% sure you can prove what you are saying. You'll notice that at one point even the US military was involved investigating the subcontractor as they also procured these aircraft during that time in the form of the C-40A Clipper. They produced a comprehensive report with lots of findings, where before the FAA found nothing worth reporting. Someone wasn't looking hard enough, whether they did so on purpose or by accident is irrelevant. The Germans have a brilliant word for this: unfähig.

[Coligny]

From what i got it's the APU starter battery pack. If it's the case... then... wtf... even on hybrid cars you don't use lipo for starters, you use lead acid... LiPo are excellent for long low/medium discharge rate... but when you enter the domain of high C ratings... you pay throught the nose... and replace often...

And... I 'm not comfortable with the idea of the 737NG being build worse than a chinese toy, and flawed in a way that just can't be fixed...

[Coligny]

An NTSB spokesman said the board was aware of the reports of the prior battery problems and would review the data to see if it was relevant to the broader 787 probe.

Yeah... I hate people who jump to conclusions too... Maybe not as much as those who ignore the obvious though...

( Boeing 787 Battery Fire: Both ANA and JAL Had Replaced Batteries Last Year, on Multiple Occasions)
http://ex-skf.blogspot.jp/2013/01/boein ... a-and.html

[Mike Oxlong]

Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

The lithium ion batteries installed on the Boeing 787 are inherently unsafe, says Elon Musk, founder of SpaceX and owner of electric car maker Tesla.

"Unfortunately, the pack architecture supplied to Boeing is inherently unsafe," writes Musk in an email to Flightglobal.

"Large cells without enough space between them to isolate against the cell-to-cell thermal domino effect means it is simply a matter of time before there are more incidents of this nature," he adds.

Both Boeing and Tesla use batteries fueled by lithium cobalt oxide, which is among the most energy-dense and flammable chemistries of lithium-ion batteries on the market. While Boeing elected to use a battery with a grouping of eight large cells, Tesla's batteries contain thousands of smaller cells that are independently separated to prevent fire in a single cell from harming the surrounding ones.

"Moreover, when thermal runaway occurs with a big cell, a proportionately larger amount of energy is released and it is very difficult to prevent that energy from then heating up the neighboring cells and causing a domino effect that results in the entire pack catching fire," says Musk.

An aerospace-capable version of Tesla's battery has been developed for use in SpaceX's Falcon 9 space launch vehicle. SpaceX, also owned by Musk, competes with Boeing/Lockheed Martin joint venture United Launch Alliance for customers. Boeing has thus far declined offers of assistance from Tesla and SpaceX, says Musk.

"They [Boeing] believe they have this under control, although I think there is a fundamental safety issue with the architecture of a pack with large cells," writes Musk in an email. "It is much harder to maintain an even temperature in a large cell, as the distance from the center of the cell to the edge is much greater, which increases the risk of thermal runaway."

Musk's assessments of battery cells were confirmed by Donald Sadoway, a professor of electrical engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

"I would have used the same words," says Sadoway. "I'm glad someone with such a big reputation put it on the line."

"He's engineered [Tesla's battery] to prevent the domino effect, while Boeing evidently doesn't have that engineering," adds Sadoway...

Full article at Flightglobal

[matsuki]

So..basically the GS Yuasa batteries have been replaced several times and aren't safe in their current design. I'm surprised Boeing would gaman with this type of shit but I suspect they are stuck buying from GS Yuasa (at least for the moment) to keep the subsidies and to keep selling all these jets to Japan.