Japan solves the unpaid overtime problem!

[Salty]

That sounded a lot like my job. But I didn`t get to cry....

[Samurai_Jerk]

That sounded a lot like my job. But I didn`t get to cry....

You're a dude, right?

[Salty]

That sounded a lot like my job. But I didn`t get to cry....

You're a dude, right?

That is what I just said....

[Samurai_Jerk]

That sounded a lot like my job. But I didn`t get to cry....

You're a dude, right?

That is what I just said....

Exactly. Women get away with a lot more at work.

[Salty]

That sounded a lot like my job. But I didn`t get to cry....

You're a dude, right?

That is what I just said....

Exactly. Women get away with a lot more at work.

Well, they better not be crying at work around me. They get sent home....

[matsuki]

That sounded a lot like my job. But I didn`t get to cry....

You're a dude, right?

That is what I just said....

Exactly. Women get away with a lot more at work.

Well, they better not be crying at work around me. They get sent home....

Or they get some? Apparently, that type of shit turns on quite a few men...

[kurogane]

Exactly. Women get away with a lot more at work.

They do that everywhere. And for less pay, too. Lucky sods.

Salty,
I accuse you of a comparative fallacy. When you were doing it it was a different economy, and just a different time. What work patterns and practices like that show in a mature developed economy is the incompetence of management. Nobody needs to work 20 hours a day, much less an educated woman of childbearing age, but not everybody has the material or mental wherewithal to go Johnny Paycheck on them. If management can't schedule shit so they don't have to work like that the board of directors should fire the retards that do schedule it like that. It's like the whole damn economy is reverting to a feudal kleptocracy fueled by corporate welfare, vicarious masochism and empty nostalgia with a side of toxic convenience store noodles on the side.

[Salty]

Exactly. Women get away with a lot more at work.

They do that everywhere. And for less pay, too. Lucky sods.

Salty,
I accuse you of a comparative fallacy. When you were doing it it was a different economy, and just a different time. What work patterns and practices like that show in a mature developed economy is the incompetence of management. Nobody needs to work 20 hours a day, much less an educated woman of childbearing age, but not everybody has the material or mental wherewithal to go Johnny Paycheck on them. If management can't schedule shit so they don't have to work like that the board of directors should fire the retards that do schedule it like that. It's like the whole damn economy is reverting to a feudal kleptocracy fueled by corporate welfare, vicarious masochism and empty nostalgia with a side of toxic convenience store noodles on the side.

Erm... I am old, but not that old. I was doing those hours up to about 10 years ago. But I certainly agree that it was excessive.

[inflames]

LSO here doesn't do shit. They pretty much lack enforcement power so companies get away with whatever the fuck they want. Usually the government offices here simply ignore blatantly illegal behavior on the part of companies (speaking from personal experience here).

If, for example, you were a contractor with a specified monthly amount written in your contract and the company paid you less, the LSO would call the company. If the company said the amount in your contract was a mistake and the amount paid is the correct amount, the LSO would inform you and consider the matter closed, despite the company obviously saying a shitty lie.

[Salty]

LSO here doesn't do shit. They pretty much lack enforcement power so companies get away with whatever the fuck they want. Usually the government offices here simply ignore blatantly illegal behavior on the part of companies (speaking from personal experience here).

If, for example, you were a contractor with a specified monthly amount written in your contract and the company paid you less, the LSO would call the company. If the company said the amount in your contract was a mistake and the amount paid is the correct amount, the LSO would inform you and consider the matter closed, despite the company obviously saying a shitty lie.

Yes, I do believe that you are right on this. To get satisfaction, you need to find a lawyer and sue/or threaten to sue. If the firm is at all concerned with their reputation, they will settle, and if not you will win (assuming your contract example...). Of course the lawyer will take his cut, so it may be better to settle, or even walk away if the contested amount is small.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Of course the lawyer will take his cut, so it may be better to settle, or even walk away if the contested amount is small.

This is a bit of an aside but as I understand it based on some litigation my company was involved in, in Japan you cannot sue for lawyer fees unless it's specified in a contract that you can. That was a company to company dispute over a fee that wasn't paid so YMMV. We won for the record but after the lawyer's cut it was more of a moral victory than an economic one.

[Salty]

Of course the lawyer will take his cut, so it may be better to settle, or even walk away if the contested amount is small.

This is a bit of an aside but as I understand it based on some litigation my company was involved in, in Japan you cannot sue for lawyer fees unless it's specified in a contract that you can. That was a company to company dispute over a fee that wasn't paid so YMMV. We won for the record but after the lawyer's cut it was more of a moral victory than an economic one.

Yes... that is what I meant by better to settle.... I have heard of a lawyer taking 40%.....

[Samurai_Jerk]

Of course the lawyer will take his cut, so it may be better to settle, or even walk away if the contested amount is small.

This is a bit of an aside but as I understand it based on some litigation my company was involved in, in Japan you cannot sue for lawyer fees unless it's specified in a contract that you can. That was a company to company dispute over a fee that wasn't paid so YMMV. We won for the record but after the lawyer's cut it was more of a moral victory than an economic one.

Yes... that is what I meant by better to settle.... I have heard of a lawyer taking 40%.....

Well when you're owed money for services rendered and the other side has no complaints about said services but refuses to pay anything more than 0% for no apparent reason other than they don't want to pay it's hard to reach a compromise. Luckily I was just an observer and not directly involved but sometimes you have to do things on principle so I get it.

[matsuki]

Well when you're owed money for services rendered and the other side has no complaints about said services but refuses to pay anything more than 0% for no apparent reason other than they don't want to pay it's hard to reach a compromise. Luckily I was just an observer and not directly involved but sometimes you have to do things on principle so I get it.

Just my own experience but in the US, it seems like far more people are willing to go to bat "on principle" (or they just don't realize how it works and have unrealistic expectations) whereas many people I've seen wronged here just "shoganai" or "mendokusai" it away and move on.

[kurogane]

To add to that, most of the time that Westernish insistence on principle is childish peeve but there are some cases where even a moral victory is worth the effort. I have taken the Cdn branch of a Japanese company to small claims court in Canada for that reason alone (they also just said FO and simply refused to pay), but of course we get fees and costs as well, which adds a nice touch of salt to the wound. My impressions from Kyoto were that rather than court the best way to get paid was smearing and threats, or just outright harassment of the others business and family. Sounded like pretty good fun, actually, assuming the complaintant really did have a case.

So, in a civil dispute in Japan the loser is not liable for fees and costs? They should get on that.

[matsuki]

To add to that, most of the time that Westernish insistence on principle is childish peeve but there are some cases where even a moral victory is worth the effort. I have taken the Cdn branch of a Japanese company to small claims court in Canada for that reason alone (they also just said FO and simply refused to pay), but of course we get fees and costs as well, which adds a nice touch of salt to the wound. My impressions from Kyoto were that rather than court the best way to get paid was smearing and threats, or just outright harassment of the others business and family. Sounded like pretty good fun, actually, assuming the complaintant really did have a case.

So, in a civil dispute in Japan the loser is not liable for fees and costs? They should get on that.

It may come across as childish but it sets a standard and makes the assholes less likely to want to go through the hassle of pulling the same shit. It's also less childish than the standard here, as you pointed out, of shaming/harassment of anyone related to the person.

[kurogane]

Ｈｅｈｅｈｅ．　Ａ　ｖｅｒｙ　ｇｏｏｄ　ｐｏｉｎｔ．Being so much fun I never thought of the nasties as childish, but yes, very much. By that measure about 1/2 of university faculty relations look a lot like kindergarten recess. BTW, I am referring more to the tendency of Westerners to stand On Principle over trivial BS in daily life and normal discussions, not the proper use of the civil courts to settle disputes. It's the use of the lofty phrase itself that bugs me. I agree there are times when principles count.

[matsuki]

On Principle over trivial BS in daily life and normal discussions

[Samurai_Jerk]

What work patterns and practices like that show in a mature developed economy is the incompetence of management. Nobody needs to work 20 hours a day, much less an educated woman of childbearing age, but not everybody has the material or mental wherewithal to go Johnny Paycheck on them. If management can't schedule shit so they don't have to work like that the board of directors should fire the retards that do schedule it like that. It's like the whole damn economy is reverting to a feudal kleptocracy fueled by corporate welfare, vicarious masochism and empty nostalgia with a side of toxic convenience store noodles on the side.

Getting back on topic ....

Outside of a major emergency (and I'm talking 9.11 or 3.11 not a tight deadline) is there ever an excuse for making people work those kinds of hours? I did it when I was 18 and working as a production assistant for a film studio but never for more than a couple of days at a time and even then I thought it was stupid because the next day everyone would show up to work but be completely useless. I guess that's when you're supposed to blow some rails of coke.

[wuchan]

Nobody needs to work 20 hours a day

My weekly record was 127 hours. I made over $160k that year. I would never work that much in Japan because I won't ever get that kind of overtime pay. I didn't need to do it but it was worth my time.

[matsuki]

Getting back on topic ....

Outside of a major emergency (and I'm talking 9.11 or 3.11 not a tight deadline) is there ever an excuse for making people work those kinds of hours? I did it when I was 18 and working as a production assistant for a film studio but never for more than a couple of days at a time and even then I thought it was stupid because the next day everyone would show up to work but be completely useless. I guess that's when you're supposed to blow some rails of coke.

I did something like that...only about a week of that per month but it really exhausts you and I can totally see people getting stress related illnesses if they tried to do that everyday. I never got any overtime pay but other than a few e-mails each week and making reservations, I was pretty much free the other 3 weeks each month.

What work patterns and practices like that show in a mature developed economy is the incompetence of management. Nobody needs to work 20 hours a day, much less an educated woman of childbearing age, but not everybody has the material or mental wherewithal to go Johnny Paycheck on them. If management can't schedule shit so they don't have to work like that the board of directors should fire the retards that do schedule it like that. It's like the whole damn economy is reverting to a feudal kleptocracy fueled by corporate welfare, vicarious masochism and empty nostalgia with a side of toxic convenience store noodles on the side.

Pretty much THIS...