Japan PM says nation should embrace migrants

[nottu]

[Catoneinutica]

It's hard not to blow coffee through your nose when some when some zero-credibility advocacy group like (alas) Amnesty International or the UN (through its Xtra Ultra Special Rapporteur Doudou Bustamente, or whatever the current person's name is) criticizes Japan's rights record. That's why I annoyingly keep bringing up the Chinese. They do things their way, and if you don't like it, you can get stuffed. A case in point is the recent news of executions of the hapless Japanese drug mules (I have no doubt that they were in the thrall of loansharks) in Dalian. Remember the schtink the J-media made when the US apprehended that LA murderer in Guam a while back, and he killed himself in jail? Compare and contrast. Yeah, that's right, Japan, just roll over and take it. There's a new pimp in town, and it's inured to accusations of racism, bashing, or lack of sensitivity.

-catone
-I suspect the J-gov't will pay much more lip-service to the topic of human rights when it's the offended rather than offending party. Perhaps the the lot of FGs will actually improve a bit; the prognosis is good, I think.

[Mulboyne]

...I could continue with an intelligent conversation about this but most would probably be bored...

I think you might be surprised how many might not only be interested but might also agree with you. A lot of people do use the forum to vent from time to time but, in my experience, many FGs here are well aware we need to subject our own assumptions and beliefs to the same degree of scrutiny we might give those we ascribe to "the Japanese".

...executions of the hapless Japanese drug mules (I have no doubt that they were in the thrall of loansharks) in Dalian....

One Chinese report suggested they were all homeless recruited by gangsters to be expendable mules.

[Behan]

[Ganma]

[nottu]

[Mulboyne]

The debate that Scalise calls for is taking place but, like so many substantive policy discussions, it's just not taking place in public. That's the point former MoJ official Hidenori Sakenaka raises when he maintains that no headway can be made on the issue without full public engagement.

In one respect, the shall-we-shan't-we argument is moot. It's true Japan is not an immigrant society by the standards seen elsewhere (elsewhere, incidentally, doesn't just mean the US & Europe: you'll find substantial immigrant populations in city states throughout Asia and the Middle East as well as many former Soviet 'stans). However, while the percentage of the total population is low, Japan does has a significant number of foreign residents. This has already raised important questions about nationality, education, family law, healthcare, policing and local administration. Even if the government capped immigrants at today's totals, those questions would remain.

[rooboy]

As if the current leader or any future fucking leader of Japan is gonna have an immigration policy that even resembles western countries....

What he's doing is just saying without saying directly that Japan needs to look at other options than this stupid fucking stagnation and emptying fucking schools and countryside because it's leading em up shit creek and they will sink in it if they don't change. It could be done easily by broadening visa rules for fucked gaijin already here. It doesnt mean immigration on any scale thats like where we come from.

Japan aint so different from Korea - tarred with the same brush, same thinking about how 'special' they are with their 'unique' fucking minds when all it's about is how they're societies that have resisted change and been more conservative. And scratch Japanese and Korean 'uniqueness' and you find Chinese fingerprints all over the shit they claim is theirs.

Note how Japanese and Koreans although they're fucking obnoxious about it because they've achieved jackshit in their history:rolleyes: except when they became developed thru contact with western technology etc, don't have any ancient monuments like Stonehenge or the Pyramids or other monuments that show a truly old culture.

They're just caught up in nationalistic myths fostered by various military dictatorships and they've never had any real ability to come up with a homegrown opposition that doesn't get influenced by western ideas like democracy.

The bottom line is they're gonna have to get more warm bodies in their populations or fall apart. Just like us whites are gonna have to accept where we come from that because whites aint having enough children then other ethnic/racial groups will come to be in the majority.

[nottu]

[AruOjisan]

What a load of fucking horseshit diarrhea. Is this best you got?
Go back to reading your loser economist blogs.
Japan will have the last laugh in front of Western decay.
idiot

Your abrasive tone belies a keen intellect, my friend.

Look no further than countries like Sweden/Scandanavia and Switzerland, to see the future of Japan IMO. Small, homogenous societies with very limited immigration, who generate massive wealth for their citizens mostly by facilitating/enabling the transactions of their more ambitious neighbors.

Western "intellects", FG or not, really do need to need to STFU up as their big ideas over the past 100 years (from unlimited democracy to globalism) are rapidly sinking them... (which, frankly, I'm thankful for--gogo BROWN AMERICA! )

[Mulboyne]

...Look no further than countries like Sweden/Scandanavia and Switzerland, to see the future of Japan IMO. Small, homogenous societies with very limited immigration...

You might want to rethink your comparisons. None of the countries you mention has limited immigration.

Immigrants as a % of population:

Sweden: 12%
Norway: 7%
Denmark:7%
Switzerland: 23%

[Yokohammer]

You might want to rethink your comparisons. None of the countries you mention has limited immigration.

Immigrants as a % of population:

Sweden: 12%
Norway: 7%
Denmark:7%
Switzerland: 23%

Exactly. Thanks for that Mulby.

And the situation in Japan (from Wikipedia):

In 2005, there were 1,555,505 foreign residents permanently residing in Japan, representing 1.22% of the Japanese population.
A significant portion of these foreign residents are in fact the descendants of Korean and Chinese labourers, who, in many cases, despite being born in Japan and only speaking Japanese, are not necessarily classed as Japanese citizens. Most Koreans in Japan have never been to the Korean Peninsula and do not speak Korean.

Another source reveals that the number of special permanent residents is around 598,000. So the number of foreigners registered as permanent residents since the war is less than a million. There's a small catch, however, in that foreigners who have been naturalized are counted as Japanese in the census.

Also from Wikipedia:

Since the Japanese population census asks the people's nationality rather than their ethnic background, naturalized Japanese citizens and Japanese nationals with multi-ethnic background are considered to be ethnically Japanese in the population census of Japan. Thus, in spite of the widespread belief that Japan is ethnically homogeneous, it is probably more accurate to describe it as a multiethnic society.

I really wish people would check their "facts" before posting bullshit pulled out of the air. Even Wikipedia will do (it's not always 100% accurate, but usually close). You're already sitting in front of a computer, so it's not a huge stretch.

[nottu]

[Samurai_Jerk]

Immigrants from where?

That's a good question. Though I now that have their third-world laborers, Switzerland for example has a lot of millionaire tax "refugees" and people from the same ethnolinguistic group of a particular region who just happened to have been born on the other side of the national border.

[Mulboyne]

...Though I know that have their third-world laborers, Switzerland for example has a lot of millionaire tax "refugees" and people from the same ethnolinguistic group of a particular region who just happened to have been born on the other side of the national border.

You might want to tell the Swiss that.

[AruOjisan]

You might want to tell the Swiss that.

Ethnic diversity doesn't necessarily equal cultural diversity, which is what I was referring to (e.g., Swedes/Danes/Norwegians are all interchangeable, as are FR/Austrians/Germans/Italians & Swiss). And from what I understand, that's what the Japanese are most concerned about, the question of "is this person (making efforts to) fit/ting in?". This is reflected in the census policy previously cited, IMO.

Contrast this to the USA/American mindset. USA/Americans firmly believe that race/genetics is the largest determinant of someone's character/disposition. And while this mentality is no longer codified (in politics, at least--it's still rampant in marketing), one can see this obsession over race in the was we conduct the Census. For years now the US Govn't has been trying trick/cajole/coerce Latinos, whose own identity transcends race, to declare themselves to be white/black/asian/whatever.

This, in fact, goes back to an assertion I saw ridiculed earlier: that Japanese aren't racist. Based on my limited knowledge/experience, I would tend to agree with this, when defined exclusively in terms of actual race/ethnicity. My understanding is JPN shun those who act differently. And if JPN discrimination is indeed based on how one acts rather than how they look, I'd prefer it 1000x over the US situation--i.e., I'd rather be judged according to something I can control (i.e., culture) than for something I can't (i.e., race).

Compare to the Dutch and French, for example, who have long had unlimited immigration. They have been 100% fine-with/accepting-of any race, so long as they strive to acclimate/integrate. Now, however, ignorant people are calling them "racist" because they refuse to accept muslim immigrants who move into their countries (FR & NL) and refuse to integrate, forming ghettos and causing problems.

So yeah, JPN should definitely stick to their guns--be like Switzerland, who only accepts immigrants who a) have something (i.e., $$) to offer to society, or b) naturally have a place there (verified via a long & arduous process). This, my friends, is not xenophobia, it's common-f'n-sense.

[Yokohammer]

This, in fact, goes back to an assertion I saw ridiculed earlier: that Japanese aren't racist. Based on my limited knowledge/experience, I would tend to agree with this, when defined exclusively in terms of actual race/ethnicity. My understanding is JPN shun those who act differently. And if JPN discrimination is indeed based on how one acts rather than how they look, I'd prefer it 1000x over the US situation--i.e., I'd rather be judged according to something I can control (i.e., culture) than for something I can't (i.e., race).

The way racism is expressed in Japan is somewhat different and fortunately less in-yer-face that it is in the US and some other countries, but it is still based on the same reason: race, pure and simple. Racism in Japan is institutionalized and insidious, as you'll find out after you've actually lived here for a few years. That's not to say that all Japanese are racist – they aren't – but the "system" is racist in many ways, and the average citizen will usually comply with the system, whether he or she is individually racist or not. It's "shoganai," you see.

If you're going to argue this point, you should really wait until you've lived it for a while.

[AruOjisan]

[quote="Yokohammer"]The way racism is expressed in Japan is somewhat different and fortunately less in-yer-face that it is in the US and some other countries, but it is still based on the same reason: race, pure and simple. Racism in Japan is institutionalized and insidious, as you'll find out after you've actually lived here for a few years. That's not to say that all Japanese are racist –]

Dude--fuck--your post seriously sent chills down my back.... lol



...could you please elaborate a bit?

[Yokohammer]

...could you please elaborate a bit?

OK ... let's see ...

Firstly, you probably won't be verbally or physically abused here (unless you really ask for it, of course). Direct confrontations are not Japanese style. So in terms of day-to-day walking around and shopping, for example, you're likely to find it quite peaceful and pleasant. As long as you're a passive, outside observer, no problem. The problems begin when you attempt to take a more active role and actually participate in or influence society, and that can be anything from trying to rent an apartment to getting ahead in business to getting financial assistance (even applying for a credit card, for example). In cases where the person making the decision that will affect your life is securely hidden behind layers of bureaucracy, you'll find that the answer will often be "no" even though a native Japanese will get a "yes" with no problem in the same situation.

I'm not trying to scare you off or anything, but a small dose of reality does seem to be in order. As long as you're prepared to live with the relatively short rope that foreigners are allowed, you can be quite happy. A really smart operator might even manage to turn that short rope into an advantage, but very, very few succeed in that type of endeavor.

[Samurai_Jerk]

You might want to tell the Swiss that.

I had a 15-year-old Swiss German student back in the States and based on her her open disdain for Turkish immgrants to Switzerland I can't say I'm surprised. A good friend here was born in France but grew up in Switzerland. I could be wrong but somehow I don't think the Swiss minded immgration when it was people like him.

[Samurai_Jerk]

This, in fact, goes back to an assertion I saw ridiculed earlier: that Japanese aren't racist. Based on my limited knowledge/experience, I would tend to agree with this, when defined exclusively in terms of actual race/ethnicity. My understanding is JPN shun those who act differently. And if JPN discrimination is indeed based on how one acts rather than how they look, I'd prefer it 1000x over the US situation--i.e., I'd rather be judged according to something I can control (i.e., culture) than for something I can't (i.e., race).

Your take on Japanese racism is only half of the picture. You're right that the Japanese don't consider those who act differently to be truly Japanese which is why Nikkei Brazilians who are 100% Japanese by blood but culturally very much Brazilian are not accepted. However, they also don't fully accept those who look differently.

A case in point is a guy I met about five years ago who was born and raised here, whose mother toungue was Japanese, who was educated in the Japanese system, and who has been a citizen of Japan from birth. However, because his father wasn't Japanese, he didn't look Japanese and he told me his whole life people in Japan have treated him like a foreigner. I think is his case it was probably made worse because since his father was South Asia he didn't really look like the typical "half" you see on TV. If anything he looked like he was from SE Asia. He told me most people assumed he was Filipino and taxi drivers always commented on his amazing Japanese ability.

You also have to look at how ethnic Koreans who were born and raised in Japan and are physically and culturally indistinguishable from the Japanese have been treated. Cut off from good jobs and good schools and only able to make it by completely hiding their ethinic origins.

I don't think these attitudes are unique to Japan or better or worse than racism/predujice/ethnocentrism in the US or Europe. I don't think we even need to compare. If there is something wrong with the system here, it should be changed regardless of what's happening elsewhere. On the other hand, just because the Japanese don't want to embrace multiculturism and open the immigration floodgates doesn't mean the system needs to change.

[BigInJapan]

You also have to look at how ethnic Koreans who were born and raised in Japan and are physically and culturally indistinguishable from the Japanese have been treated. Cut off from good jobs and good schools and only able to make it by completely hiding their ethinic origins.

I have heard similar stories about Zainichi Koreans and Chinese in Japan in the past, but how true is this in 2010?
I have personally met a woman of Korean descent, born and raised in Japan, and she is the head of the language dept. at a Japanese university (and she uses her Korean full name).
And how about the female politician "Renho" (goes by her first name only) who has a Taiwanese mother and Japanese father? Her ethnic background has been brought up, but it didn't stop her from becoming a politician.
Recent story on Renho in the Japan Times.

Just curious, but can you name some good jobs and good schools for reference?

[TennoChinko]

I have heard similar stories about Zainichi Koreans and Chinese in Japan in the past, but how true is this in 2010?
I have personally met a woman of Korean descent, born and raised in Japan, and she is the head of the language dept. at a Japanese university (and she uses her Korean full name).
And how about the female politician "Renho" (goes by her first name only) who has a Taiwanese mother and Japanese father? Her ethnic background has been brought up, but it didn't stop her from becoming a politician.
Recent story on Renho in the Japan Times.

Just curious, but can you name some good jobs and good schools for reference?

I can't speak for SJ, but I believe even nowadays companies like Mitsubishi Shoji conduct thorough background checks to they ensure they do not hire ethnic Koreans or burakumin (untouchables) lest they pollute their pure-blooded ranks.

Conversely, a retired Public Security Investigation Agency director, Suganuma, claimed in a 2006 speech to the FCCJ that upto 90% of the ranks of the Yamguchi Gumi were composed of ethnic Koreans and burakumin - with the breakdown given as 30% and 60% respectively. Kinda makes sense as Kobe/Osaka (where Yamaguchi Gumi is headquartered) has the highest concentration of both burakumin and Koreans in Japan.
[YT]WA1X2gCImbQ[/YT]

[Samurai_Jerk]

I have heard similar stories about Zainichi Koreans and Chinese in Japan in the past, but how true is this in 2010?
I have personally met a woman of Korean descent, born and raised in Japan, and she is the head of the language dept. at a Japanese university (and she uses her Korean full name).
And how about the female politician "Renho" (goes by her first name only) who has a Taiwanese mother and Japanese father? Her ethnic background has been brought up, but it didn't stop her from becoming a politician.
Recent story on Renho in the Japan Times.

Just curious, but can you name some good jobs and good schools for reference?

I was giving a historical perspective and not neccessarily talking about the actualy situation on the ground now. However, if it were no longer an issue it wouldn't be the sensitive topic it still seems to be.

Anyway, my point was that the Japanese care just as much about ethnic origin and physical appearance as they do about how one behaves in determining ones Japaneseness. That's why companies and other institutions are no longer allowed to ask about honseki and it's not printed on the face of your drivers' license.

[Yokohammer]

I was giving a historical perspective and not neccessarily talking about the actualy situation on the ground now. However, if it were no longer an issue it wouldn't be the sensitive topic it still seems to be.

Anyway, my point was that the Japanese care just as much about ethnic origin and physical appearance as they do about how one behaves in determining ones Japaneseness. That's why companies and other institutions are no longer allowed to ask about honseki and it's not printed on the face of your drivers' license.

I think this is pretty much on target.
It has become more non-PC to talk about, and a few outward concessions have been made, but nothing that actually improves the situation for the marginalized in any meaningful way.

It's lots of little things that add up. Like students at Korean schools not being eligible for the same public transportation discounts as Japanese kids (I don't know if this is still the case, but it certainly was a few years ago). A minor thing in itself, but there are lots of niggling little details like this that add up to racism that is spread thinly so that it doesn't seem like a big deal. That's why I say that racism in Japan is "insidious": it's subtle and gradual, but harmful all the same.

[TennoChinko]

[nottu]

[Greji]

It's not real complicated.
Japanese is Japanese, not Japanese is not Japanese,
Cleveland is Cleveland.

Nice Haiku!

[Kanchou]

[nottu]