Jpn woman (20) missing in Okinawa; US military suspect

[Samurai_Jerk]

You two are starting to remind me of Bill O and Geraldo.

[matsuki]

Where are you reading that Choko? I have seen nothing other than military posting followed by contractor with SOFA.

Saw it mentioned in the comments of several articles. Checked with a buddy of mine on base and he confirmed it though he couldn't verify the other details about him going back to the US and returning again.

[Mike Oxlong]

Gonna need more than that dude. No news report has stated anything other than being posted here as a marine followed by the contractor job with SOFA. Zero credible info about him returning to the US nor about a J-visa. A look at his linkedin page TC provided shows SOFA jobs.

[wagyl]

Moreover, discussions about fine details of how he came here are not really the issue. There is a strong perception in the area the victim came from, being exposed to crime committed by outsiders, that they are suffering more than they bargained for due to the presence of the bases. Whether that is an accurate perception or not is not the issue. You can hardly go five kilometres on that island without a base being in your way. Large numbers of 18 to 25 year olds in the military because there were no opportunities elsewhere, and who have disposable income and free time but limited avenues to spend it, are going to cause problems in a community wherever it is, whether Okinawa or Norfolk Virginia. Whether it is an employer issue or not, the perception remains, and that has to be addressed as much as anything else.

[matsuki]

Gonna need more than that dude. No news report has stated anything other than being posted here as a marine followed by the contractor job with SOFA. Zero credible info about him returning to the US nor about a J-visa. A look at his linkedin page TC provided shows SOFA jobs.

I'm pretty sure it will eventually leak out with this much coverage. In fact, the failure to find he already had residency is probably one of the few things that can actually be fixed.

Moreover, discussions about fine details of how he came here are not really the issue. There is a strong perception in the area the victim came from, being exposed to crime committed by outsiders, that they are suffering more than they bargained for due to the presence of the bases. Whether that is an accurate perception or not is not the issue. You can hardly go five kilometres on that island without a base being in your way. Large numbers of 18 to 25 year olds in the military because there were no opportunities elsewhere, and who have disposable income and free time but limited avenues to spend it, are going to cause problems in a community wherever it is, whether Okinawa or Norfolk Virginia. Whether it is an employer issue or not, the perception remains, and that has to be addressed as much as anything else.

I agree that is the real issue. This dude, however, is a 32yo father of who's married to a local and lives off base. I'm not "pro base" but if you want to take shots at the base, this isn't the best case to launch attacks from. Really not much else anyone can do to prevent nutjobs like this from suddenly acting out unless they have a history.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I agree that is the real issue. This dude, however, is a 32yo father of who's married to a local and lives off base. I'm not "pro base" but if you want to take shots at the base, this isn't the best case to launch attacks from. Really not much else anyone can do to prevent nutjobs like this from suddenly acting out unless they have a history.

You're wrong because people's reaction to this has absolutely nothing to do with niggling details about his employment or immigration status. Any attempt by the military to distance themselves will only make things worse. Even if this guy wasn't a former Marine and was an ex eikaiwa teacher who'd been living in Okinawa for years before landing a job on the base, he'd be tied to the military in the minds of the locals who are fed up with their presence.

[Wage Slave]

I agree that is the real issue. This dude, however, is a 32yo father of who's married to a local and lives off base. I'm not "pro base" but if you want to take shots at the base, this isn't the best case to launch attacks from. Really not much else anyone can do to prevent nutjobs like this from suddenly acting out unless they have a history.

You're wrong because people's reaction to this has absolutely nothing to do with niggling details about his employment or immigration status. Any attempt by the military to distance themselves will only make things worse. Even if this guy wasn't a former Marine and was an ex eikaiwa teacher who'd been living in Okinawa for years before landing a job on the base, he'd be tied to the military in the minds of the locals who are fed up with their presence.

Exactly. Matsuki, you need to allow for a few things:

1. The actions of one member of a group inevitably reflect on the group. You and I may not see it that way and it may not give rise to legal liability, but it is still the perception. This perception is particularly strong in Japan.

2. Caused by the base and consequent to the operations of the base are two different things. The former is clearly not the case, the latter arguably is. That would be true even if the guy was just a camp follower, which he wasn't.

3. Splitting hairs while dancing skillfully on the head of a pin doesn't really cut it outside barrack room legal debates.

None of that means that the base should be shut down as soon as possible but it does mean that the base attempting to wash its hands of the affair entirely will upset people.

[matsuki]

In the court of public perception, especially in Okinawa, I realize association/blame is inevitable. No argument from me there. I'm also not debating the statements were a wise PR move.

...but I'm not in the military PR biz and not talking about perception. Just saying it's not exactly sound reasoning to look at this incident and say it's the base's fault, get Obama on the phone, we need to lodge a complaint!

[Samurai_Jerk]

In the court of public perception, especially in Okinawa, I realize association/blame is inevitable. No argument from me there. I'm also not debating the statements were a wise PR move.

...but I'm not in the military PR biz and not talking about perception. Just saying it's not exactly sound reasoning to look at this incident and say it's the base's fault, get Obama on the phone, we need to lodge a complaint!

So as I suspected you're basically just engaging in mental masturbation. Dude, this isn't debate class. If the public used sound reasoning to guide them, poor people wouldn't vote for the GOP or LDP.

[matsuki]

But Trump is going to build a wall!! He's gonna make Mexico pay for it!!

[Mike Oxlong]

U.S. Forces Japan officials referred questions about Shinzato to Okinawan police, but did say Shinzato is not a member of, or an employee of, the U.S. military, nor is he a Defense Department civilian worker.
“While living in Okinawa, he was hired by a company contracted to provide services to U.S. military installations on Okinawa,” Hoffman wrote. “He was granted SOFA status through his employment with the contracted company.”
According to Shinzato’s LinkedIn profile, he was in the Marines at least from 2008 to 2012 and served as a postal clerk in the 3rd Battalion, 12th Marines mailroom and a combat marksmanship coach, then worked for the Defense Department in various capacities through 2014.
The profile also states he is enrolled in college courses at the University of Maryland University College.

http://www.stripes.com/news/defense-att ... e-1.410588

DoD newspaper.

[matsuki]

Saying it without saying it....you don't just live in Okinawa without residence. (legally anyway)

[Mike Oxlong]

I consulted with my military and retired mil contacts, and according to them, SOFA employees have a SOFA "visa", allowing them to work and reside in Japan legally, while being under the direction and protection of the US govt. They work for on-base companies or the govt/mil directly. Non-SOFA contractors work for private off-base companies, and need the usual work permit issued by Japanese immigration. One may not have both SOFA and a Japanese issued visa.

[matsuki]

Right, they're not supposed to have both. Maybe that's why he went all Shinzato and Fenneffu?

[Mike Oxlong]

If you can prove that claim true, then that's one more stike against him.

[wuchan]

I consulted with my military and retired mil contacts, and according to them, SOFA employees have a SOFA "visa", allowing them to work and reside in Japan legally, while being under the direction and protection of the US govt. They work for on-base companies or the govt/mil directly. Non-SOFA contractors work for private off-base companies, and need the usual work permit issued by Japanese immigration. One may not have both SOFA and a Japanese issued visa.

you can if it's a spouse/child visa.

[matsuki]

I consulted with my military and retired mil contacts, and according to them, SOFA employees have a SOFA "visa", allowing them to work and reside in Japan legally, while being under the direction and protection of the US govt. They work for on-base companies or the govt/mil directly. Non-SOFA contractors work for private off-base companies, and need the usual work permit issued by Japanese immigration. One may not have both SOFA and a Japanese issued visa.

you can if it's a spouse/child visa.

Legally?

That's what he supposedly had/has.

[wuchan]

I consulted with my military and retired mil contacts, and according to them, SOFA employees have a SOFA "visa", allowing them to work and reside in Japan legally, while being under the direction and protection of the US govt. They work for on-base companies or the govt/mil directly. Non-SOFA contractors work for private off-base companies, and need the usual work permit issued by Japanese immigration. One may not have both SOFA and a Japanese issued visa.

you can if it's a spouse/child visa.

Legally?

That's what he supposedly had/has.

I know a few dudes that have it. I'm not sure how legal it is but most of them came here as a solider, got hitched then after release they came back on a visa and got a base or Embassy job doing something semi important.

[Mike Oxlong]

I've heard it's forbidden. The whole extra-territoriality thing. If you have SOFA, and go to get a J-issued visa, the local immigration office will make it clear accepting the new visa invalidates the SOFA. If one goes the opposite route, looking for SOFA status after obtaining some sort of resident status in Japan from immigration, the admin/command head may allow it (even though it's not allowed under the treaty). It is likely hardly ever a problem, but if this is a case of the rules being bent by military admin/command, and the guy getting the extra benefits goes and shits on a local, it sure won't help the situation.

[inflames]

It is forbidden as the rules are completely different.

If someone is on SOFA, the only people who can make them leave is the US government - Japanese immigration has no say in the matter (people under SOFA basically don't exist to the Japanese government).

[matsuki]

Well, he's certainly not enjoying any of the legal benefits of SOFA.....

[inflames]

For something like this, even if he had SOFA, I am pretty sure they would want to waive jurisdiction ASAP (IIRC jurisdiction only applies to civilians doing work related duties - I doubt driving around, raping and killing some woman counts). If he had a spousal visa and SOFA, I bet the Japanese government would simply just say he has a spousal visa so no SOFA and the US would be more than happy with that.

[Yokohammer]

In Obama's/Abe's joint pre-summit speech last night, Obama stated that the case would be handled entirely under Japanese jurisdiction, with full support from the US when and if requested.

The speeches were disturbingly out of sync in other ways, but that's for a different thread.

[Mike Oxlong]

i dont intend to cover up for the dude. but......
native okinawa ppl's crime rate is more than twice as high as the crime rate of US mil guys there.
who is more dangerous for okinawa natives is okinawan themselves, NOT US mil guys.
its not too much to say this fact over and over.

It's interesting how stats work. Similarly, the crime rate of Okinawans on-base is quite a bit lower than that of Americans on-base, and the overall Okinawa crime rate. If we include on-base crime stats with crimes committed off-base (total crimes committed by Americans on Okinawa, not just the off-base subset), we see a rate of American crime much more similar to local Okinawans, though somewhat higher. The gates and razor wire are to keep Americans in, not to keep locals out.

[Samurai_Jerk]

i dont intend to cover up for the dude. but......
native okinawa ppl's crime rate is more than twice as high as the crime rate of US mil guys there.
who is more dangerous for okinawa natives is okinawan themselves, NOT US mil guys.
its not too much to say this fact over and over.

It's interesting how stats work. Similarly, the crime rate of Okinawans on-base is quite a bit lower than that of Americans on-base, and the overall Okinawa crime rate. If we include on-base crime stats with crimes committed off-base (total crimes committed by Americans on Okinawa, not just the off-base subset), we see a rate of American crime much more similar to local Okinawans, though somewhat higher. The gates and razor wire are to keep Americans in, not to keep locals out.

The type of crime committed is also important. Is one group committing violent crime at a higher rate than the other?

[Takechanpoo]

inside the base is not japan. so no japanese care about whatever happens there.
it seems like you still dont understand japanese mentality. every time tragic incidents happen outside japan, all japanese care about is whether or not japanese nationals are included among the victims. and once the fact that no japanese are included among them is known, "ah, so it doesnt matter to us. fixed. ".

[Takechanpoo]

nevertheless japan still need us mil base in okinawa.

okinawa without military base....it exists only in a fairy tale.
you do need to put mil bases on okinawa to govern east asia or western pacific because of the geopolitical importance.
so okinawa ppl just can make negative choices which us-jsdf base or chinese base is less objectionable to them for a while(i have no idea how long the exact period of time is, though. ) they need to become realistic and make realistic choice without being deceived and led astray by "the liberals" who funded by chinese.

[kurogane]

I find it always helps to have a scraggy blond Baltic woman providing expert commentary on Japanese domestic affairs.

[Takechanpoo]

[kurogane]

What a BS link. It would help if they would stop fucking blabbing and explain what happened to the Russian girl. What a bunch of inflammatory rubbish.