China is "60 years behind Japan"

[Taro Toporific]

China "Lags Behind US By 100 Years"
E.sinchew-i.com: 2005-03-09 12:35:29 MYT
A recent report on China's development may help allay rising concern about the so-called 'China threat'... China's Modernisation by the Chinese Academy of Science (CAS... says that the country is more than 100 years behind the United States, 70 years behind Germany and 60 years behind Japan.....more...

[AssKissinger]

This report is dead on

India is still in the middle ages.

[Socratesabroad]

Yep, seems that I'm finally not the only one...

As for the blazing Chinese economy and all that, I used to think China would be an economic powerhouse - until I started living here. Now, I realize that China has the potential to be a pretty powerful nation, but they have a long way to go.

http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9381&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=china+yellowed

[maraboutslim]

So if China is 100 years behind the USA but only 60 years behind Japan that means that Japan is 40 years behind the USA? Who the fuck came to that ridiculous conclusion?!

[Buraku]

So if China is 100 years behind the USA but only 60 years behind Japan that means that Japan is 40 years behind the USA? Who the fuck came to that ridiculous conclusion?!

This report is the greatest load of SHIT

Nippon with birth rates worse than those of communist China, the Japanese have a shrinking population, an economy that pretty much hasn't grown in 15 years, and government deficits and debts larger than the USA despite being 2/5ths the American size. China everyting being built there from hi-fi, microwaves, to car-parts and computers and the Chinese are gaining ground on the internation level with pull in the UN and WTO say and a stronger grasp of politics. Bush meanwhile continues to clock up massive debts and his Iraq fiasco has almost destroyed the dollar, Baby-Bush has also called for manned missions to Mars but with space shuttles turing into fireballs I wonder if he is just bluffing. Meanwhile the Chinese Economy is growing fast ranked up there with other giants like the EU eurozone and the United States Economy, the Nippon economy meanwhile has fallen to 4th place and might soon be passed by other nations. Mainland China also has its own super power space plans, which will help advance its weather-satellites, spy networking, tele-communications, and military applications, the Chinese are also planning a Moon mission before the China 2008 Olympics.

The Chinese have some major problems, you don't need to eliminate poverty, push total equality and have a social medicare system to be a superpower, just check out those black cotton pickers still working outside Jackson, look at those Mexican beggars, the whitey homless in NYcity and check out the racism in the Jasper creek dragging, yet with all these problems the US is still a leader. China has major issues but as a world player I would say China is a little behind Uncle Sam and if Bush continues shooting himself in the foot then China will pass the USA out.

With idiot reports like this is it any wonder japanofiles are wasting their cash on the dying Nippon pension system and continue to watch the dollar fade away





have fun investing your money in the over-priced Japanese slum

[GuyJean]

China "Lags Behind US By 100 Years"

Interesting.. China only has 60 years until 85% of them can be spoiled, Prada sucking whores, and 100 years till 60% of them can eat themselves into diabetes.. Only 2% have that possibility now.

I sometimes wonder if the Chinese people will accept a 'lower standard of living' because of it's massive population and experience with Communism; comparing them to the West might be the wrong formula.

GJ

[Mulboyne]

China is often described as a "growth miracle" which is always a phrase to make anyone wary. Brazil, another economy with a large internal market like India and China, has often been a "growth miracle" candidate over the last 150 years. If you had extrapolated their growth rates when they were on a roll then it would have been easy to see them overtaking Europe.
Japan certainly has deep problems in its economy today but it remains the only true example of a "growth miracle" over the last 100 years. After 1950, Japan increased its share of world GDP from 3% to 8%. Although we talk about the pre-eminence of the US economy, it represented 19% of the world in 1913, grew to 27% after WWII but finished the 20th century back at around 22%.
China in 2000 had grown substantially but actually only returned to it's pre-WWI relative ranking. One study I remember looked at standard of living by taking per capita GDP data as a percentage of US per capita GDP. On this measure, too, China stood out as an example of economic destruction and recovery. Even with today's numbers after five years of rapid growth, this comparison puts China at only around 13% of US levels. By contrast, Japan's went from 20% to 75% of US levels.
Ultimately, Rising living standards are a better indication of the likelihood that a economic growth will "stick" and that is where Brazil failed. Buraku is right that you don't need developed social institutions to be a superpower but you probably do if you want to remain one.

[Socratesabroad]

So if China is 100 years behind the USA but only 60 years behind Japan that means that Japan is 40 years behind the USA? Who the fuck came to that ridiculous conclusion?!

That observation's fair enough. 100 years and such is a pretty gross generalization, but China lags way behind Japan and still farther behind the West.

This report is the greatest load of SHIT

Thank you for that insight. Now, if you don't mind, I'll take issue with almost every point you tried to make.

China everyting being built there from hi-fi, microwaves, to car-parts and computers

Yes, but even legitimately manufactured Chinese products have questionable quality, and we won't even mention the rifeness of low-quality knock-offs. Plus most tech-intensive stuff is not actually made in China - good hi-fis are all from China-based Japanese companies (like my new JVC CD/Md stereo system), decent autos are made by China-based German and Japanese car companies (Volkswagen, Toyota, etc.), and high-end PC parts are actually made in the US (PCUs), Singapore (HDs), or Taiwan (MBs) and then shipped to the mainland (forcing me to wait for my new Gigabyte motherboards to arrive). And a lot of what China is producing is thanks to use of technology stolen or illegally copied from Westen/Japanese firms (for more on this here).
And I haven't even mentioned the illegal copies of DVDs, CDs, and software that account for the bulk of the Chinese market.

and the Chinese are gaining ground on the internation level with pull in the UN and WTO say and a stronger grasp of politics.

I'm sure China's participation in the WTO will be eventful given all of the violations above that I've mentioned which the Chinese government turns a blind eye to.

Meanwhile the Chinese Economy is growing fast ranked up there with other giants like the EU eurozone and the United States Economy

I believe Mulboyne has covered the growth rate issue, so I thought I'd mention two glaring omissions you seem to have made in your comparison of China's economy to Japan and the West:
1) China's economic situation is artificial
Currency has yet to be fully convertible, and this statement applies to businesses and individuals alike both outside China and in China. Moreover, transactions even in small amounts (5-10,000 USD) require government approval. And even if they are approved...
2) China's banking and finance system is only in its infancy
Only certain banks are authorized to handle certain transactions - Bank of China and HSBC (HK), for instance, are often the only banks allowed to handle RMB conversion into foreign currency. I say 'often' because government regs on transactions are vague and piecemeal at best - and this coming from someone who got a crash course in Chinese banking law when trying to convert 60,000 RMB (about 7000 USD) into foreign currency which China-based Western Union requires (see how we return to that hassle of non-convertible currency).

Since I've touched on Chinese law in banking/finance and manufacturing, I thought I'd mention it as another major obstacle to the 'Chinese miracle.' Feel free to have a look in google under 'legal reform' and 'China' for further information. Oh, and common wisdom here is that you needn't bring a lawyer to your hearing but you'd be a fool not to bring your wallet.

Mainland China also has its own super power space plans, which will help advance its weather-satellites, spy networking, tele-communications, and military applications, the Chinese are also planning a Moon mission before the China 2008 Olympics.

Ahh, the Chinese space program...

At the start of China's space and missile programs in the 1950s, the Soviet Union gave China significant assistance in the form of training and materials. This assistance, along with a small influx of Western-educated Chinese technicians, formed the basis of China's early successes in both the space and missile programs.
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/week/031006.htm

In reality, Qian Xuesen, a rocket engineer formerly attached to the Jet Propulsion Lab in Pasadena, California, U.S., who had been expelled in the 1950s for suspected Communist sympathies, designed China's first missiles, earning him the accolade of being the father of the space program.
http://www.iisg.nl/~landsberger/csp.html

But's let not forget a major purpose of China's space program:

Successes in space exploration are very much seen as results of the CCP support for advanced scientific projects that is part and parcel of his theory, the 'Three Represents'. The Party has appropriated the space mission rather as another justification for its continued rule, and attempts to use it even further to fan patriotism.

Moreover, space exploration and scientific research in general are part of the Party strategy to combat specific religious behavior that it sees and terms as superstition. Even in materials aimed at Falun Gong adherents, space imagery has been used in an attempt to bring them back into the fold.
http://www.iisg.nl/~landsberger/csp.html

And without wanting to drag on for too long, I'll just mention in passing China's major infrastructure problems, restrictions on travel (mostly for Chinese), restrictions on information access (for everyone), governmental and corporate corruption, very basic medical and academic facilities....

China has major issues but as a world player I would say China is a little behind Uncle Sam and if Bush continues shooting himself in the foot then China will pass the USA out.

[Buraku]

[Socratesabroad]

here's an idea Socratesabroad try reading a book sometime instead of repeating the bullshit you see on FauxNews or the ConfusedNoiseNetwork

With the greatest civility (and patience) that I can muster, let me see if I can respond....

After residing in Japan for 7 years, I now live in China and have been here for over a year studying Chinese at a Chinese university where I plan to enroll as a regular student some time this year. This means that I have yet to see a broadcast of Fox or CNN and depend mostly on the BBC (I should probably contribute to them) for international news. And with the exception of cites about the Chinese space program, the information I posted was obtained from my own experience or from what I've read in Chinese news.

Though I'm not sure if that carries as much weight as the bulletin board postings (i.e. http://www.thespacesite.com/community/index.php?s=8ab92c07f1502355ec3044f7d9133bd7&showtopic=883&st=0&#entry7289) that you seem to consider 'evidence' to support your position. I am bemused, though, since you seem to have read them less carefully as one in fact supports my contention -

If Chinese growth continues it may well be on the way to Superpower status but China still has much to learn

Lastly, you seem to have failed to master use of the 'quote,' which is not intended to highlight your own writing but to show that something you are indeed quoting has come from someone/somewhere else.

Soviet missile devices and Tsien Hsue Shen also spelt Qian Xuesen, helped put up those crappy East-is-Red propaganda satellites, it happened back about 50 years agao has nothing to do with the a FalunGongCult in fact this cult

I believe you need to re-read the page I quoted. Better yet, let's have a look at the poster the author was actually referring to:

Let's get back to the Chinese Space industry and its Space designs

Let's. If you re-read my post, you'll find that I never questioned the achievements of the Chinese space program. I did, however, highlight the decidedly foreign influence on it throughout most of its history (seeing as how it went on hiatus with the Cultural Revolution). And, having been frequently exposed to Chinese state-controlled media, I'd suggest you take anything the People's Daily Online offers as news ('space vegetables') with more than a grain of salt.

China in 2003 stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US

Measured on a purchasing power parity (PPP) basis, China in 2003 stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US, although in per capita terms the country is still poor. Agriculture and industry have posted major gains especially in coastal areas near Hong Kong, opposite Taiwan, and in Shanghai, where foreign investment has helped spur output of both domestic and export goods. The leadership, however, often has experienced - as a result of its hybrid system - the worst results of socialism (bureaucracy and lassitude) and of capitalism (growing income disparities and rising unemployment). China thus has periodically backtracked, retightening central controls at intervals.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html

[Despite the source being the CIA, the info they provide is hugely accurate in this instance]

That China has military muscle is not an issue - what is in question is if China has the economic capacity to maintain it. As I have suggested, there are serious doubts about China's ability to do this. Moreover, comparisons to other nations with admirable growth fail because they have not devoted as many resources to building and sustaining such large military forces.

While some may question Japan's plight, as Mr. Clark does, I am left wondering - does this mean Mr. Clark has pulled up stakes and left Japan? Obviously not. Japan has made huge advances in manufacturing and production beyond simple cost-cutting as well as contributions to the sciences, particularly in computing and robotics. Japanese medicine is also improving. China, however, merely offers cheap production and labor, so I'm more than a bit amused to hear of 'Chinese' advanced technologies given that they are either technologies pilfered from elsewhere or the product of joint Chinese-foreign ventures. And one could of course mention the desperate attempts by the Chinese government to lure skilled researchers and professionals back (using salaries, housing and other preferential policies to attract skilled workers and management people and they may have their permanent right of residence abroad preserved.

In short, Japan has a proven track record of enacting massive change and ability to innovate and adapt (or 'adopt' if you take the dimmer view), at least in industry if not in government. In contrast, China merely has potential which it is equally likely to realize or squander.

But if you're so confident in the Chinese 'miracle', then, Buraku, when should I expect to see you over here?

[Buraku]

But if you're so confident in the Chinese 'miracle', then, Buraku, when should I expect to see you over here?

Right now I don't know enough Chinese
but the fact is this, with the right pay if Japan companies are setting up industry in the Mainland, European firms are investing in China, or the USA are outsourcing and if those companies would offer me enough pay then perhaps I'd take the job


Right now I contradicted you and went against what you said
you responded with the greatest civility and patience

Yet People have been putting money into Japan
and each time Japan contrdicts their expectations or falls behind from internal corruption
How should investors respond to Japan ???
people are trying their patience on Japan for the past years and where is it getting them
Nowhere !!

Banking corruption, a dying pensions system, debts larger than the USA despite being 2/5ths the US size and economy that pretty much hasnt grown in 15 years.

People are getting tired of the Japan economy and the corrupt Yakuza construction that has the hold on LDP politics

[devicenull]

lots of words

I am oddly finding myself in a similar position as yours. And yes, if you look around right now, China has so much god damned potential that has yet to be realized, enough that it is frustrating. It's so close in some regards, but so far in others. After I get myself setup here and finish up college, I intend to be part of the solution to this. I have some good guanxi now that can help me do some of it too. China has a golden opportunity RIGHT NOW to solve a lot of domestic social problems with all the foreign dollars being pumped into it. The issues I see, if solved, will set China on a path for greatness. That is part of the reason I love it here, not only is there opportunity to get rich, but also opportunity to actually make a difference if you get the right contacts. As of this trip, I have a really good friend who's dad was here for the 60s-80s as a diplomat and personal friend of Mao. I was introduced to the first American granted Permanent Residence (worked on the Manhattan Project and was here when China worked on the bomb), the head of the Chinese Stock Exchange, and the head of xindongfang. Also randomly met up with some mid-ranking party members who liked a few of my observations and suggestions... they are taking part in the convention. Eh, it feels somewhat productive to be here.