60th anniversary of the fire-bombing of Tokyo

[Ptyx]

The night hell fell from the sky

Sixty years ago today, on March 10 1945, the US abandoned the last rules of warfare against civilians when 334 B-29's dropped close to half a million incendiary bombs on sleeping Tokyo.

The aim was to cause maximum carnage in an overcrowded city of flimsy wooden buildings; an estimated 100,000 people were 'scorched, boiled and baked to death,' in the words of the attack's architect, General Curtis LeMay. It was then the single largest mass killing of World War II, dwarfing even the destruction of the German city of Dresden on Feb. 13, 1945

I never heard of that particular bombing. Bigger than Dresden ? This is huge. Did you knew about it or am i the only ignorant here.

[cstaylor]

It's just you. The firebombing of Tokyo drawfs Hiroshima in terms of immediate death count.

[dimwit]

On the evening of the firebombing, there were 28 mile an hour blowing in Tokyo which helped the fire spread much more rapidly and gave much less time to escape the flames.

[L S]

[dimwit]

[gkanai]

That link doesnt work. The one that works is here:

http://http//www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/bios/i4tamura.htm

[prolly]

in the movie Fog of War, Robert McNamara talks about this and the atomic bombs, and even goes as far as to say, "[me and general somebody] would have been tried as war criminals had we lost the war." due to the overreaching viciousness onwhich the US attacked Japanese civilians.

[Buraku]

A horrible crime, and a terrible happening in war
the firebombing of Tokyo, and the Nuke on Hiroshima
it was an over-reaction by the Allies and they were looking for revenge

However its not as if the Imperial Japanese nations wasn't asking for it, Japan was not innocent. They commited terrible war crimes in Burma, they beheaded POWs, sneak attacked the US when they bombed Peral Harbor, As a poster on p219.ezboard.com - foldmasterqfrm8 said 'N Korea blasts Nippon at UN. for abducting 200,000 women' 'For once this nutty KimJong has said something I can agree with - And no, his numbers are not an exaggeration.
Japanese sex slaves I hear Japanese people moaning and groaning about their 20 or so citizens that were abducted by the NorthKoreans but nobody seems to remember that the Japanese forced 670,000 Koreans to go to Japan during WWII: " Japanese abduct 670,000 Koreans but can't remember, the war that never was in white washed Ishihara history ! "

There were Unit 731 experiments or the Bataan death march, when Hong Kong fell on that one day 1,689 Canadians were captured by the Imperial Japanese. .

the funny things about Germany is that they can talk about how the Russian Soviets over ran the city, or the bombing of Dresden and people still have respect for the Germans. N.Africans, Europeans, Asians and N and S Americans may not love the Germans but they have trust with them and strong diplomatic ties. Germany doesn't have racists like Governor Blinky-Ishihara in power, the German leadders don't worship war criminals in Yasukuni and Germany is constantly paying victims of the war, and educating its people on the horrors of the Nazi


Indeed the allies did bad thinsg to Japan, very bad, but its not like the kamikaze Japanese weren't asking for it. Japanese crimes against humanity even shocked the Nazis

Things could have been a lot worse, at the end of the war the USA could have left Japan be while it was crippled from counter attacks by British, Canadians, Vietnamese and others

the Americans could have sat back and allowed Indonesians, Russians, and Vietnamese to run through Japan attacking, looting and burning ( they perhaps would have deserved it after all the Japanese war crimes )

Nippon constantly tries to show itself as the victim of World War 2, when it was just an Imperial aggressor that got its ass-kicked

I guess its Govenor blinky for Prime minsiter next


some may ask what makes the German relationship with others so different to Japan's relationship with its neighbours

I say start with the Japanese leaders
sure there were many Japan victims of the war, but with leaders as nutty as that we should that Nippon with a pinch of salt

Kiichi Inoue, minister for disaster management, suggested that the murder of a classmate by an 11-year-old schoolgirl indicated a sign of women's progress.

Nakasone commented Americans are weak because Blacks lower the IQ


gaffe-prone Yoshiro Mori,
likewise courted nationalist and historical revisionist sentiments.
In a speech to LDP supporters in his native Ishikawa prefecture in June
2000, Mori called for "jugo", literally "behind the guns", support.
The term was used by Japanese militarists during World War II to encourage

women to support the war effort of soldiers fighting overseas by taking
care of the children and family on the home front.
This followed an earlier remark that caused deeper and more widespread
outrage, even from partners in his coalition government.
Speaking to a gathering of parliamentarians belonging to Shinto Seiji
Renmei, a political group of the Association of Shinto Shrines, Mori said:
"We have made efforts to make the public realise that Japan is a divine
nation centring on the emperor".


ol Shintaro Ishihara
Said that Koreans welcomed Japanese colonialism because Japan was modernised compared to Russia and China
Called old women a pack of b!tches and said they don't deserve to live after reproduction age
Called Chinese a bunch of Animals
Supports Ring-Winger Uyoku Terrorism, enjoys other groups getting harrased and threatened and he voiced support for the placement of a Terrorist time-bomb outside the home of Minister Hitoshi Tanaka. Ishihara loves the Yasukuni, Kamikaze fighters and all that nonsense.


( Asia's finest board )

[devicenull]

Later this month we all go to the Hiroshima thing to get a shot of "America so evil, poor Japan" This will be fun considering all the new exchange students going with us, of which none have ever been outside the US before. I'm probably going to end up with more "meetings" to discuss "how japan and china are different" after this trip. God, I really don't want to go back for next semester

[cstaylor]

God, I really don't want to go back for next semester

Go back where?

[cstaylor]

in the movie Fog of War, Robert McNamara talks about this and the atomic bombs, and even goes as far as to say, "[me and general somebody] would have been tried as war criminals had we lost the war." due to the overreaching viciousness onwhich the US attacked Japanese civilians.

Not sure how it could be "me", since McNamara wasn't in command of any military forces during WW2. I think you're talking about Curtis LeMay, who was head of SAC during McNamara's term as Secretary of Defense.

[Mennon]

A lot of the language used by the Americans nowadays can be compared to that of the Wartime Japanese, and many of the comments that caused such outrage a few years by Mori wouldn't (and don') raise an eyebrow if Bush says it. "One nation under god" "Good versus Evil" etc.
The Hiroshima Museum actually confronts the issue of why it was chosen as a target, with a lot of photos and details of the military bases and artillery depots that were there at the time. It's really good, and not anti-anything except anti-killings heaps of children and old people in a matter of seconds.
It was a crazy time, and crazy things happened that we can never really understand or justify.

[AssKissinger]

I never heard of that particular bombing. Bigger than Dresden ? This is huge. Did you knew about it or am i the only ignorant here.

Yeah, everyone knows about that! It's a famous story that after Pearl Harbor FDR said something like 'We'll take this war right into Tokyo!' At the time it was almost unbelievable because our Navy took such a beating at Pearl Harbor but they did it. FDR died not long after. But don't feel bad about having missed that piece of knowledge about the war , everybody has huge gaps of knowledge, even in things they are really interested in.

Robert McNamara killed a lot of people, that's for sure.

[Socratesabroad]

in the movie Fog of War, Robert McNamara talks about this and the atomic bombs, and even goes as far as to say, "[me and general somebody] would have been tried as war criminals had we lost the war." due to the overreaching viciousness onwhich the US attacked Japanese civilians.

Not sure how it could be "me", since McNamara wasn't in command of any military forces during WW2. I think you're talking about Curtis LeMay, who was head of SAC during McNamara's term as Secretary of Defense.

Actually, I believe prolly is correct. I saw the Fog of War as well (and thought it was well done, thus the recollection). In the war McNamara was a numbers cruncher in the Air Command and did mostly statistical anaylsis of bombs dropped, target hit ratios, etc with regard to Asia and specifically Japan. Given that the movie is basically a recent interview/retrospective with McNamara, I took him to be paraphrasing LeMay.

[cstaylor]

In the war McNamara was a numbers cruncher in the Air Command and did mostly statistical anaylsis of bombs dropped, target hit ratios, etc with regard to Asia and specifically Japan.

It doesn't take a genius to realize firebombing wooden structures would destroy a large portion of the city. Anyone familiar with Japan's history would know that.

The difference between LeMay and previous commanders of air command is that he was willing to step over that line and commit atrocities to end the war by destroying the most essential part of its war production: workers.

Wasn't he also pushing for bombing historical sites like Kyoto and Kamakura? Good thing Stimson wasn't replaced by Byrnes when Truman took office.

[Kuang_Grade]

It doesn't take a genius to realize firebombing wooden structures would destroy a large portion of the city. Anyone familiar with Japan's history would know that.

Not disagreeing, but there is an actual science in the planning the bomb patterns, bomb mix, and timing of the attacks to do the max possible damage (ie, creating firestorms)...The Allies tried a few different approaches during the middle phase of the air war in Europe before figuring out the 'right' way to do it, with Dresden being one of the more spectacular examples. Although J construction materials/techniques certainly made it an easier job for US bombing plans.

While not funny, I always though it amusing that US actually had to come up with a short list of cities not to bomb so they would actually have some proper non-damaged cities in order to nuke when the A bombs were ready...Can't learn much about the impact of an atomic weapon if you use it on a city that has already been burned down.

[cstaylor]

short list of cities not to bomb so they would actually have some proper non-damaged cities in order to nuke when the A bombs were ready...

I've never heard of such a list. I've heard of a list of cities that were to be targets, and that Henry Stimson pushed to have Kyoto and Kamakura removed from the list due to the historical significance of those cities.

[devicenull]

God, I really don't want to go back for next semester

Go back where?

Kasugai.... in Beijing right now, where life is good, and everyday is fun. Leaving in 4 days back to the rice fields and urban sprawl which is the Nagoya area

[cstaylor]

Kasugai.... in Beijing right now, where life is good, and everyday is fun. Leaving in 4 days back to the rice fields and urban sprawl which is the Nagoya area

How long will you be in Japan?

[devicenull]

Kasugai.... in Beijing right now, where life is good, and everyday is fun. Leaving in 4 days back to the rice fields and urban sprawl which is the Nagoya area

How long will you be in Japan?

until August... shoot me please

[cstaylor]

You should ask if you can go to Miyajima instead of the Peace Park. And make sure to try some Oysters near the seafront... very tasty.

[AssKissinger]

Many in Japan view the air raid as a war crime on par with atrocities carried out by Japanese troops in Asia during the war, and the firebombing has often been pointed to by nationalists as one of the great forgotten injustices of history.


"That firebombing is unforgivable," Ishihara, Tokyo's outspoken governor, said at a news conference Thursday. "One hundred thousand people died in one night. That's a massacre isn't it? We have to say this. But Japanese politicians these days, and the Foreign Ministry, don't."

Unforgivable, huh? Sounds like ol Blinky's up for a round two.

[Mike Oxlong]

Japan refused to sign the Paris Peace Treaties after WWI, claiming they were not compatible with the Japanese notion of bushido (or the twisted version of it used as the rationale to invade Asia prior to and during WWII). I may have even read something about that on another thread here somewhere...

Anyhow, it's seems a case of the kettle calling the pot black to blame the USA for abandoning rules of war when the Japanese refused to agree to any rules of war long before WWII broke out.

[devicenull]

Many in Japan view the air raid as a war crime on par with atrocities carried out by Japanese troops in Asia during the war, and the firebombing has often been pointed to by nationalists as one of the great forgotten injustices of history.


"That firebombing is unforgivable," Ishihara, Tokyo's outspoken governor, said at a news conference Thursday. "One hundred thousand people died in one night. That's a massacre isn't it? We have to say this. But Japanese politicians these days, and the Foreign Ministry, don't."

Unforgivable, huh? Sounds like ol Blinky's up for a round two.

Nah, we just need to hit him and a few others.

[AssKissinger]

They (we?) killed innocent civilians like flies but they had to get special permission to kill Admiral Yamamoto who is famous for orchestrating Pearl Harbor. They did kill his ass though.

[Kuang_Grade]

I've never heard of such a list. I've heard of a list of cities that were to be targets

It's effectively the same list...Once they finalized the A bomb target list, those cities were not to be targeted for any significant conventional attacks. I seem to remember reading that, near the end of the war either Hiroshima or Nagasaki had a reputation as a "safe city" because it hadn't been bombed unlike most of other cities....as a result more children/refugees were there when they dropped the A bomb.

[Kuang_Grade]

[AssKissinger]

I'm going to shut up after this

Please don't. Keep the quality contributions coming.

Yeah, a big move like that would always involve a myriad of considerations. Evidence of code breaking would obviously be a big one. What I think, is that getting Yamamoto was a big reason they were breaking codes in the first place so naturally when the chance sprang up they would jump on it. I still think that whether or not it was a violation of international law was at least one of the factors that was taken into consideration before they ordered the assassination.

[AssKissinger]

http://sites.gizoogle.com/?url=http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87062#post87062

Pleaze D-to-tha-izzon't. Keep tha quality contribizzles com'n.

Yeah, a big move like tizzle would always involve a myriad of considerizzles. Evidence of code trippin' would obviously be a big one straight from long beach nigga. What I think, is that mobbin' Yamamoto was a big reason tizzle wizzle break'n codes in tha fizzay place so naturally whizzay tha chance sprang up they would jizzay on it in tha hood. I still think that whetha or not it was a violation of internizzles law was at least one of tha factors tizzy was taken into considerizzles before they ordered tha assassination.

[mr. sparkle]

It's effectively tha same list...Once they finalized tha A B-to-tha-izzomb target list, those hoodz were not ta be targeted fo` any signifizzles conventizzle attacks . Drop it like its hot. I seem ta brotha read'n that, near tha end of tha war eitha Hiroshima or Nagasaki had a reputizzles as a "safe city" coz it hadn't been bombed unlike mizzle of drug deala cities....as a result mizzle children/refizzles wizzle there W-H-to-tha-izzen they dropped tha A biznomb . They call me tha black folks president.