Tokyo and Osaka are the world's most expensive cities.

[sludge]

LONDON -- Japan's Tokyo and Osaka are the world's most expensive cities with London in third place, according to a survey released Monday. New York, the most costly of American cities, placed 13th.
The annual report released in London Monday ranked cities based on the comparative cost of more than 200 items including housing, public and private transport, food, clothing and entertainment.
For example researchers for Mercer Human Resource Consulting found a bus ride in London cost $3.66 compared to 51 cents in Prague, $1.83 in Dublin and $1.76 in Paris.
Surveys are conducted in 144 cities around the globe every March. All cities are compared to New York, which is automatically given a ranking of 100, Tokyo in comparison scored 135.

...Read More...

[jim katta]

The surveys keep showing this about Tokyo and Osaka, but frankly it doesn't really add up to me (as a resident of New York City).

Here's why...

Yes, Tokyo is really expensive on many things, but in terms of housing (the most important cost for anyone), it's pretty easy to find a decently priced apartment ($600-$800 mo) at least 20-30 minutes from Shinjuku. But in New York, now, not only are Manhattan apartments outrageously priced (avg. 1 bedroom $1,800), but now even the outer areas (Brooklyn, Queens) have risen dramatically in price (avg. 1 bedroom $1200). Apartments in Brooklyn an Queens, unless you are in the most expensive areas right across the water from Manhattan, are about 20-45 minutes from Manhattan.

I speak from experience, I've had two apartments in Tokyo, and many apartments in New York. So maybe "statistically" Tokyo may be more expensive, but in terms of what matters, New York is still a harder place to live in financially.

I love to hear any other views on this.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Jim, I have to agree with you that finding affordable housing in NYC is a lot harder than Tokyo (assuming you can find someone to rent to your gaijin ass) unless you live way the fuck out in one of the boroughs. And, as you pointed out, even they aren't cheap anymore. That's because they don't design 4.5 jo apartments for the single salaryman to live in in lower Manhattan. The good thing about being a NYer is we don't suffer from sticker shock (or living in a shoebox shock) like so many other Americans on moving to Japan.

[mercutio]

I love to hear any other views on this.

I havent lived in Ney York so I dont have good number to compare to but I think your numbers with regard to Tokyo may be unrealistic....or at least you're not comparing apples to apples. My apt in Tokyo was tiny and poorly located compared to what I had in the most expensive part of San Francisco and rent ran about the same, US$1800/month.

However, the rent isnt the expensive part... it is the 1 months worth of rent as a leasing fee + the 2-4 months rent key money + the 2-6 months rent as a deposit that you dont get back. So youre looking at US$10,800-$19,800 just to walk in the door...then you get pay the $1800 every month. I would guess that is an important consideration.

[Captain Japan]

These surveys are always done with the ex-pat in mind. In other words they are guides for businesses that might be relocating their employees to certain areas. So the comparisons wouldn't be for everyday things but for the high-end type stuff that folks on the "package" need/want/think they want/whatever.

[nullpointer]

However, the rent isnt the expensive part... it is the 1 months worth of rent as a leasing fee + the 2-4 months rent key money + the 2-6 months rent as a deposit that you dont get back. So youre looking at US$10,800-$19,800 just to walk in the door...then you get pay the $1800 every month. I would guess that is an important consideration.

This is exactly my understanding as well. I am moving to an apartment in Tokyo next month and I am looking at US$ 15,000 just to walk in the door.

[Samurai_Jerk]

These surveys are always done with the ex-pat in mind. In other words they are guides for businesses that might be relocating their employees to certain areas. So the comparisons wouldn't be for everyday things but for the high-end type stuff that folks on the "package" need/want/think they want/whatever.

Yeah, I guess when you add that in over the two year lease it starts to catch up with NY. Although, unless things have changed, NY does tend to have higher move in costs (it can be several months rent up front) than other American cities. At least you get most of it back though.

But the el-cheapo-salary-man-special-type apartments that you can find in Tokyo don't really exist in NY; so, instead of living in your own little rabbit hutch you end up sharing a bigger place with 5 other people -- far worse in my opinion.

[jim katta]

I havent lived in Ney York so I dont have good number to compare to but I think your numbers with regard to Tokyo may be unrealistic....or at least you're not comparing apples to apples. My apt in Tokyo was tiny and poorly located compared to what I had in the most expensive part of San Francisco and rent ran about the same, US$1800/month.

I don't know, maybe this is a disagreement of perception or facts. I've looked at a lot of apartments in Tokyo, and whenever I looked at something over $1,500 it was either is a convenient area (read: not far from shinjuku), or it was really nice. Of course there will always be shit holes out there for expensive prices, but I'm sorry, the shit holes I've seen in Tokyo were mostly below the $1000 dollar mark. New York? Shit. I just left a shit hole (great location though) and I was paying $2700 a month. We're talking bad plumbing, drafty, tilles falling in the bathroom, huge waterbugs from the unkept back area, constantly failing hot water, a gas leak that I didn't know about for a year (thank god it didn't kill me), and building manager worth shit. And just to be clear, this was in the middle of lower manhattan in a very exclusive (to those who don't live there) block full of well off people.

People talk about how crappy Tokyo apartments are, and they are right. But new york apartments aren't generally top notch either. And you pay through the nose for living in new york. My point is: in Tokyo, at least you have the OPTION of finding a place that's somewhere in the $600-$800 range. In New York, this isn't really an option anymore, unless your are ready to be a 50 year old with a roommate.

[gomichild]

I was pretty amazed when I went back home to Australia to discover that prices were pretty much equivalent to Japan - in fact clothes and shoes were way higher.

[Blah Pete]

As someone already mentioned these surveys are geared to companies who will be sending upper level management types overseas.
They probably include a minimum sq. footage of living space which probably means one of those houses advertised in the Japan Times for 60-Man/month.


But they did also compare the price of a bus ride so..

[dimwit]

It would be very interesting to see what their formula was for determining prices was. My guess is that the index reflects prices for foreigner getting paid in US dollars and paying taxes in the US or wherever. Taxes make a huge difference. If you are paying taxes here you are going to be able to take home far more of you paycheck so the high prices are leveled off. I recently compared did a bit of a comparision between taxes and prices in Toronto and here and came to the conclusion that I am on average about $1000 dollar a month better off living in Japan. By the standards set in the index Toronto ranks about 80 something in terms of costs.

[Buraku]

In Japan you've got the inheritance tax, hotel tarrif tax by governor Blinky, capital transfer tax, property tax, japan land levy and other tax, community charge, a weird form of poll-tax, death duty and dying taxes, 2nd estate duty article 4....read about the yakuza construction companies and the LDP recession

[etto_neh]

Yeah yeah... y'all who're whining about your $1500/month apt in Manhattan, er, 'scuse me, Queens (or some other toilet the 'bridge-and-tunnel crowd currently live in') still don't quite seem to get it. You NYers don't pay 'key money' (thank god, cause maybe it'd be illegal in the US) and your deposit is maybe 2 months, max, which you get back, unless you totally trash the place.

Osaka here. 5 months deposit @ $1000/month. I may see a 1/4 of that back, if any.

And you NYers take the subway. It's one price, no matter how far you go. If you live in NYC, then you're only going to pay $4/day (If it's still $2 trip), or whatever for your unlimited cards. There are no 'unlimited rides' in Japan (er, maybe daily touristy tickets.) I pay $10/day for a 40min commute into downtown Osaka. (Er, granted, the fucking monorail is $$$$).

Japanese cabs work out to around $5/mile. How about NYC? Yeah. Waay fucking less. You can compare Japan to NYC, but only in a broad sense.

[mercutio]

Of course there will always be shit holes out there for expensive prices, but I'm sorry, the shit holes I've seen in Tokyo were mostly below the $1000 dollar mark. New York?

...snip...
People talk about how crappy Tokyo apartments are, and they are right. But new york apartments aren't generally top notch either. And you pay through the nose for living in new york. My point is: in Tokyo, at least you have the OPTION of finding a place that's somewhere in the $600-$800 range. In New York, this isn't really an option anymore, unless your are ready to be a 50 year old with a roommate.

I really dont know how or when you found OPTIONS that were anywhere close to Tokyo for $600-$800 but the only thing I could find for $1000/month was always a Gaijin house.... wheee life in a dorm with college kids and middle-aged English teachers past their return date! no thanks

[drpepper]

Some people touched on this a little bit but just look at the sq footage... you pay 1.5 to 2x as much maybe but you get 3x the space... that is something to consider as well. Food and drink prices are through the roof here as well... thank god for costco!

[jim katta]

I really dont know how or when you found OPTIONS that were anywhere close to Tokyo for $600-$800 but the only thing I could find for $1000/month was always a Gaijin house.... wheee life in a dorm with college kids and middle-aged English teachers past their return date! no thanks

Yes, I must be hallucinating...

==============================
JPY100000 (approx.$900)/ 1br - Harajuku Studio
Reply to: mm3dv3d@gmail.com
Date: 2005-06-20, 12:19PM JST

Moving out of my apt on July 4.. small place but beautiful view and very centrally located in Tokyo. Standard renting deal with deposit, key money etc. through a rental agency. The reason I post is that I still have all furniture and appliances so you could by it all very cheap and be set with furnished apartment. Contact 090-4135-0243 or email asap.. otherwise check out my sayonara sale in furniture & household items sections

http://tokyo.craigslist.org/apa/79775398.html
==============================

Jim Katta comment:
I will grant you that this is rare for Harajuku, but nevertheless, it exists. And please don't tell me about "oh, it's probably a shoe box." Of course it is. A few months ago I looked at an "apartment" in the East Village, New York (similarly cool and desired place to live like Harajuku) and it was literally about the size of a large coat room; price $1500 a month -- and that was a DEAL that many people were clamoring to see. The terms required that you pay three months rent ($4,500), plus broker's fee of $3,100, plus have a rock solid guarantor regardless of your sparkling credit rating. I repeat, this was a shoebox in a barely decent building. I am not exaggerating. As I left there were several people who appeared to be fighting over the apartment.

As for the Japan key money argument, sorry, it doesn't hold water for me. I'll tell you why... Okay, so let's say you find your place for $1000, and then have to pay 6 months plus key (bribe) money, etc. But guess what? After that, YOU'RE DONE! If you can save up and come up with the key money and other set costs, you are in, and can begin paying your $1000 rent and live and do your thing. In New York, you often have to pay the equivalent of 3 months of rent, plus a hefty (generally several thousand dollars) broker fee. In manhattan you rarely are able to get around this. So we're really only talking a couple of thousand difference in terms of set-up. The key is when you settle in for the long haul of rent paying. The difference is, in New York, you pay thousands of dollars to get IN the place, but then you still have to struggle to pay the incredibly high rent ($1500 for ANYTHING at this point looks like a GREAT DEAL to most here--which is crazy). Average 1-bedroom usually runs about $2000 (about 217,268 YEN ) and that is at the LOW END of the price scale.

I can totally deal with paying a big set-up fee to get INTO an apartment if the rent is reasonable. This is an option in Tokyo. This is not an option in most parts of new york city (in manhattan, or anywhere close 30 minutes to manhattan).

About cabs and trains, hey, remember that I'm not arguing anything else. I could nickel and dime you too about the fact that New York doesn't have 99yen stores, etc., but that's an endless nickelanddime argument. Yes cabs and trains in tokyo are expensive, but for most people, the MOST important expense is living quarters. If you have not personally seen apartments (shitty or not) in the $600-$800 range in Tokyo, I can only think is that it means that I'm looking in the right places and you probably aren't looking hard enough. I'm not saying that finding affordable housing in Tokyo is EASY, just doable. In New York, it's literally becoming impossible.

As for gaijin houses, in my opinion, really the only times you 'have' to deal with a Gaijin house is:

1)if you don't have the big set-up costs for an apartment, or
2)if you are having a bad run of 'we don't rent to Gaijin' syndrome

On that gaijin note, I would like to say that for me, the difference is negligable. I'm a black guy who looks young, and I can't tell you how many times I've been dissed in manhattan while trying to find an apartment. On the phone, it's ALL GOOD, but when they meet me, their attitude totally changes. So when I get this kind of gaijin rental stuff in Tokyo, it completely rolls off my back, I'm used to it already in New York.

Again, I think there are more affordable/viable rental options in Tokyo than New York City. Like the Harajuku ad I posted, while it may be rare, you'll NEVER find a place that cheap in lower Manhattan in any area equivalent to harajuku. I 'would' post more ads, but I think I'll keep the rest of my sources to myself.

[Unless someone else cares to share, then I'll do the same]

[Samurai_Jerk]

I was basically going to say the same thing as Jim Katta. He's right. NY is a fucking bitch.

[Buraku]

building standards a kind of different in Japan

you'll find some expensive places that are almost suitable as dog kennels
outcome of the bursting of the enormous share and property bubble of the early 90s, is compelling the banks to foreclose on larger companies

almost, in the west you'd perhaps be done for cruelty to animals for keeping creatures in such crummy enclosed space.

The Japanese house is not designed very well for insulation
the cost of electricity, Japan utilities, washing, Oil fuels, garbage, heating...is outrageous

[ichigo partygirl]

I found this article quite interesting

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=comment&id=796

[kamome]

NY is a fucking bitch.

Just great. And it looks like I'm about to embark on a NY apartment search in a week or so. Damn.

[mercutio]

The key is when you settle in for the long haul of rent paying.

Oh please! after the all of the key money you still have to pay a few months worth of rent extra every year as a fee just to *renew* your lease in Tokyo

yes Manhatten is expensive... so is Ginza... compare apples to apples and they're both pretty damn expensive but I still think Tokyo has NY beat

I wish I could have found anything close to what youre talking about but 2 years ago when I signed my lease an $1800 shoebox with a 15+ min walk to a station was the best deal I could find... hell, I started off with a $960/month room in a gaijin house and that was *cheap*

the shoebox
http://www.fnord.org/~brad/stash/2003-10/oct_2003_043.jpg
http://www.fnord.org/~brad/stash/2003-10/oct_2003_045.jpg

the gaijin house
http://www.fnord.org/~brad/stash/2003-07/july2003-018.jpg
http://www.fnord.org/~brad/stash/2003-07/july2003-019.jpg

I am certianly not arguing that NY is less expensive than you say but I have never seen Tokyo to be as cheap as you think

[drpepper]

You call that a shoebox?? Fuck, that place looks damn nice.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Yeah, this guy's got no idea what a shoebox is.

[Mulboyne]

CSMonitor: Tokyo affordable? In some ways, now it is.
TOKYO – Japan is stereotyped as the land of the $80 watermelon and the $90 mushroom. Many expats think it easier to rearrange the rings of Saturn than use the word "affordable" and "Tokyo" in the same sentence. Yet as urban real estate values rise globally, and as prices for Japanese basics like food and clothing drop, Japan is being seen as less prohibitively expensive. Apart from three uniquely Japanese money guzzlers - buying property, elite dining, and taxis - costs seem less extreme these days, say expats and Japanese interviewed.
..."You've had various types of restructuring and new competition," says David Wank of Sophia University. "By the '90s Japanese were aware of global prices and began making demands. China is just one element."
..."Japanese used to read in the Western press about $150 melons," says Toshi Morikawa, a longtime journalist. "Every story about Japan mentioned that melon. But now there are ordinary places with ordinary prices. Restaurant meals used to cost $100, and maybe all you got was a little moss from a deep mountain valley, and a small black bean. The days of the moss and bean are mostly gone."
..."I come from a culture where a sack of potatoes costs nothing," says Asmat Afridi, a Pakistani expat who is a computer specialist. "Here I'm paying an arm and a leg for 12 individual okras."

[Buraku]

Yeah yeah... y'all who're whining about your $1500/month apt in Manhattan, er, 'scuse me, Queens (or some other toilet the 'bridge-and-tunnel crowd currently live in') still don't quite seem to get it. You NYers don't pay 'key money' (thank god, cause maybe it'd be illegal in the US) and your deposit is maybe 2 months, max, which you get back, unless you totally trash the place.

Osaka here. 5 months deposit @ $1000/month. I may see a 1/4 of that back, if any.

And you NYers take the subway. It's one price, no matter how far you go. If you live in NYC, then you're only going to pay $4/day (If it's still $2 trip), or whatever for your unlimited cards. There are no 'unlimited rides' in Japan (er, maybe daily touristy tickets.) I pay $10/day for a 40min commute into downtown Osaka. (Er, granted, the fucking monorail is $$$$).

Japanese cabs work out to around $5/mile. How about NYC? Yeah. Waay fucking less. You can compare Japan to NYC, but only in a broad sense.

Then there's the toll bridges and highway charges

[Buraku]

NEW YORK-As a place to live, Japan is becoming less desirable. For quality of life, Japan rates 11th in the world, according to an annual United Nations report.

It is the first time for Japan to slip from the top-10 rankings.

Quality of life is represented by a human development index that measures such factors as life expectancy, school enrollment ratio and per capita gross domestic product (GDP).
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200509090153.html
The report issued Wednesday was compiled by the United Nations Development Program. It covers 177 nations and territories.

Meanwhile, Japan ranks 43rd for the gender empowerment measure (GEM), an index that registers gains by women in the economic and political fields.

Japan's score is abysmal for a leading industrialized nation.

Japan topped the human development index in 1990 when the ranking was first compiled, and again in 1991 and 1993.

[Mulboyne]

Reuters: Seoul most expensive Asian city for expats

Seoul has taken the top spot from Tokyo as Asia's most expensive city for expatriates, thanks to the South Korean won's appreciation against the dollar, a human resources firm said on Thursday. According to a survey by ECA International, Seoul is the fourth most expensive place for foreign staff at multinational companies in the world, with Tokyo trailing in sixth place...According to ECA, the world's most expensive place for expatriates is Luanda, the capital of the southwest African country of Angola. Another African city that has made it close to the top of the list is Kinshasa, capital of the Democratic Republic of Congo and the second most expensive city for expatriates in the world...more...

[Buraku]

Reuters: Seoul most expensive Asian city for expats

I think the Koreans are starting to make a mess of things just like Japan did in the 90s,
perhaps they are attempting to build a giant, corrupt over-priced slum

[Greji]

perhaps they are attempting to build a giant, corrupt over-priced slum

Nothing wrong with that as long as you own the slum!

[AssKissinger]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060626/ap_on_bi_ge/world_s_expensive_cities

[SIZE="5"]Survey: Moscow is world's priciest city [/SIZE]By MADLEN READ, AP Business Writer
Mon Jun 26, 12:54 AM ET



NEW YORK - Moscow has eclipsed Tokyo as the world's most expensive city, a new survey says.
The Russian capital moved up three spots from a year ago thanks to a recent property boom, according to a survey released Monday, while the Japanese capital slipped to third place due to the weaker yen.

South Korea's Seoul ranked second on the list, up from fifth last year.

I wish I knew exactly how they determine this because it sounds like BULLSHIT!