Why Japan's UN SC Seat Bid Failed

[homesweethome]

[dingosatemybaby]

Japanese ODA is simply one part of industrial state - the MOF - providing financing to another - the general contractors and zaibatsu (sorry for the recherche terminology).

And besides, money can't buy you love - though it CAN buy you any number of 13-year-old Thai girls in Japan, apparently.

[Andocrates]

Are you 2 guys like lovers or something?

[dingosatemybaby]

Are you 2 guys like lovers or something?

Heh.

Oyasumi. [dingo tries to find a cool place on the floor]

[Deckard]

Beggars shouldn't be choosers. Its just not polite.

[maraboutslim]

Japanese ODA is simply one part of industrial state - the MOF - providing financing to another - the general contractors and zaibatsu (sorry for the recherche terminology).

It's not recherche, it's just wrong. Zaibatsu emerged in the Meiji era and operated up until they were forceably disolved at the end of World War II. I swear I've posted this exact thing before, but hearing that word is one of my pet peeves. No one uses the term "zaibatsu" to refer to the current "keiretsu" except non-Japanese who want to look cool to people who don't know any better. So put down the William Gibson novels, please, and get hip to the difference between the historical single-family led zaibatsu and the modern horizontal keiretsu.

[maraboutslim]

Ok, I searched. I did go into my zaibatsu rant the last time dingo used the term. He replied with a picture of unicorns. I didn't get it then, and I won't get it if he posts it again. He obviously didn't get my point either since he is continuing to use a term no Japanese would use (except to describe history).

[Samurai_Jerk]

Japanese ODA is simply one part of industrial state - the MOF - providing financing to another - the general contractors and zaibatsu (sorry for the recherche terminology).

It's not recherche, it's just wrong. Zaibatsu emerged in the Meiji era and operated up until they were forceably disolved at the end of World War II. I swear I've posted this exact thing before, but hearing that word is one of my pet peeves. No one uses the term "zaibatsu" to refer to the current "keiretsu" except non-Japanese who want to look cool to people who don't know any better. So put down the William Gibson novels, please, and get hip to the difference between the historical single-family led zaibatsu and the modern horizontal keiretsu.

You are correct, but I think his point is that the keiretsu are just an extension of the zaibatsu system. Of course I'm probably giving him too much credit.

[Greji]

[quote/]No one uses the term "zaibatsu" to refer to the current "keiretsu" except non-Japanese who want to look cool to people who don't know any better. So put down the William Gibson novels, please, and get hip to the difference between the historical single-family led zaibatsu and the modern horizontal keiretsu.[/quote]

You get a couple of gold "Attaboys" for the accuracy of your post and its historical setting, but you forfeit then with "no one uses". Zaibatsu is frequently used in kaiwa among government officials and business people to refer to the "Oyagaishas". But, having said that, I must qualify that it is only a term of reference as to identify, or even "honor" a major financial position that acompany or companies occupy, separating them, or really elivating them in stature from the level of other banks or businesses. It as you said, has nothing to do with the Iwasaki, Mitsui, Yasuda families et al.

[dingosatemybaby]

Dingo read Gibson's "Idoru" so long ago that he's long forgotten the story, not to mention any particular terminology he may have used, such as "zaibatsu." Look, I remember when Americans like me where all in awe of Japanese economic might (this was the Bush Sr. era - the puking incident, the "wimp factor" and all that), and, pace Ezra Vogel, et al, I thought keiretsu were marvelous creatures indeed. Compassionate, valuing employee input, not obsessed with the bottom line, etc.

Then I came to Japan. There's merciless power hierarchy here, with the MOF and the leaders of the keiretsu at the top, the secondary manufacturers (employing the lion's share of Japanese workers) in the middle, and a toxic stew of yakuza, homeless, and itinerant laborers at the bottom (you know, the poor bastards who get scalded to death when they're doing maintenance work on Japanese nuclear facilities).

So yeah, I bought the bullshit about the keiretsu, but now I think the transition from pre-occupation to post-occupation was one more of continuity than change. The MOF still explicitly acknowledges that Japan is following the "1940" system of economic expansion. So I use the term "zaibatsu." The Japanize "iron triangle" of business, bureaucrats, and politicians, seems to be essentially the same now (concrete-pouring, market-gaining, worker-exploiting) now as it was in the early part of the century. The archaic term zaibatsu seems appropriate to describe such an archaic system. To say the term is obsolete, though, is to say that Japan is no longer an oligarchy, but a geniune democracy. It ain't.

-dingo
-feel free to discuss

[drpepper]

So yeah, I bought the bullshit about the keiretsu, but now I think the transition from pre-occupation to post-occupation was one more of continuity than change. The MOF still explicitly acknowledges that Japan is following the "1940" system of economic expansion. So I use the term "zaibatsu." The Japanize "iron triangle" of business, bureaucrats, and politicians, seems to be essentially the same now (concrete-pouring, market-gaining, worker-exploiting) now as it was in the early part of the century. The archaic term zaibatsu seems appropriate to describe such an archaic system. To say the term is obsolete, though, is to say that Japan is no longer an oligarchy, but a geniune democracy. It ain't.

-dingo
-feel free to discuss

Dude, grow up. Like it isn't that way everywhere.

[dingosatemybaby]

So yeah, I bought the bullshit about the keiretsu, but now I think the transition from pre-occupation to post-occupation was one more of continuity than change. The MOF still explicitly acknowledges that Japan is following the "1940" system of economic expansion. So I use the term "zaibatsu." The Japanize "iron triangle" of business, bureaucrats, and politicians, seems to be essentially the same now (concrete-pouring, market-gaining, worker-exploiting) now as it was in the early part of the century. The archaic term zaibatsu seems appropriate to describe such an archaic system. To say the term is obsolete, though, is to say that Japan is no longer an oligarchy, but a geniune democracy. It ain't.

-dingo
-feel free to discuss

Dude, grow up. Like it isn't that way everywhere.

Allow dingo to retort. Two points:

1. This is fg - loosely connected with living in...wait for it...Japan.

2. No shiat, Sherlock. Things like expliotation of labor exist everywhere. Dingo would argue that it is generally more severe in Japan than in, say, Finland. And there are monolothic companies everywhere, but does IBM build houses and cars and elevators and electronics and builidngs in Marunouchi, in addition to computer products? No? TIJ - see #1.

[dingosatemybaby]

Ok, I searched. I did go into my zaibatsu rant the last time dingo used the term. He replied with a picture of unicorns. I didn't get it then, and I won't get it if he posts it again. He obviously didn't get my point either since he is continuing to use a term no Japanese would use (except to describe history).

You didn't get the unicorn pic? Go back and read your description of the "keiretsu." It was chock-full of fantasy and bullshit, just like the pic.

[Buraku]

who is worse ?










So guys who has the most f*cked up mindset
is it the the Korean kiddy ? or the Japan adult poltician like Mori and Blinky - who call foreign immigration to Japan a scource of genetic pollution

80% of South Koreans oppose Kozumi's Yasukuni politics

South Korea are also against a seat for Japan

[altar]

I think the main reason behind the failure to expand the UNSC is that the US are against any kind expansion which would dilute their veto power. China is of course against that too but being the only one would put it in a political hard place. The US have kept voicing support for Japan's bid but it's easy to say so when they know it's never going to happen because Japan's bid is linked to others which they reject.
Concerning Japan's financial contribution to the UN, I haven't checked in detail but I do think that, being the second largest contributor to the Budget, they must have paid a much larger share of the overall operating budget, apart from the funding of programs which are conditioned and politicized, like all of Japan's ODA. So I think they did invest a huge amount of cash in the pursuit of an accession to the UNSC which is for them a question of prestige, a symbol of a Japan moving on from being a loser of WWII to becoming one of the greatest nations and wielding the political power it thinks it deserves. However I don't see that happening any time soon.

[dingosatemybaby]

dingo's opinion (like assholes, every dingo has them) about UNSC membership: India (second largest pop. in the world) and Brazil (leading S. American country) in; France out. England and Russia can represent Europe. Besides, France was partially an axis power (Vichy), anyway.

-dingo
-loves French antiques and French women

[homesweethome]

[Mulboyne]

23.8 Trillion Yen? According to the MOF web site, seems conservative to me

The peak figure was just over 27 trillion and is now down to just over 7 trillion. You are being taxed via a Zero Interest Rate Policy which has allowed the banks to generate profits through bond purchases (in the absence of any real demand for loans) and reserve against their NPLs. Meanwhile, no-one with any savings can earn any real income without putting their capital at risk.

No wonder they don't want them on a council of 'Security' What could be worse than having the worlds biggest internal debitor (hungriest country) sitting at the table saying who gets to eat what.

Outstanding US public debt is $7,854,175,973,062.28

[maraboutslim]

23.8 Trillion Yen? According to the MOF web site, seems conservative to me but even if so, the amount of NPL in Japan is more than the entire GNP of Brazil.

If we assume that when the MOF in Japan uses the English word "trillion" they mean it in the American sense of 1 with 12 zeros (and not 1 with 18 zeros like the British), then, no, $23.8 trillion yen is not more than the GNP of Brazil.

The CIA factbook says that GDP of Brazil is $1.5 trillion. 23.8 trillion yen is only $205 billion, or about 1/6 of Brazi's GDP. It is only 1/18 of Japan's annual GDP. Or another way to think about it is that it is also less money than is held by the world's 7 richest individuals (according to Forbes).

Meanwhile, US public debt is $7.8 trillion or about 2/3 of the US $11.7 trillion GDP.

[devicenull]

I don't know what it is about people talking in the 3rd person about themselves, but that, in combination with signing posts, is usually a trait of some of the most worthless people on the net...

edit: may I be the first to call the furry card into play?

[homesweethome]

maraboutslim:

If we assume that when the MOF in Japan uses the English word "trillion" they mean it in the American sense of 1 with 12 zeros (and not 1 with 18 zeros like the British), then, no, $23.8 trillion yen is not more than the GNP of Brazil.

So much for my "economic reasons" theory

[Greji]

maraboutslim:

".... no, $23.8 trillion yen is not more than the GNP of Brazil...."

So much for my "economic reasons" theory

I'm not sure exactly how much "$23.8 trillion yen" is worth!

[dingosatemybaby]

I don't know what it is about people talking in the 3rd person about themselves, but that, in combination with signing posts, is usually a trait of some of the most worthless people on the net...

Ad hominem = owned.