Japanese Language Not Necessarily From Japan

[Mulboyne]

New York Times: Finding on Dialects Casts New Light on the Origins of the Japanese People
Researchers studying the various dialects of Japanese have concluded that all are descended from a founding language taken to the Japanese islands about 2,200 years ago. The finding sheds new light on the origin of the Japanese people, suggesting that their language is descended from that of the rice-growing farmers who arrived in Japan from the Korean Peninsula, and not from the hunter-gatherers who first inhabited the islands some 30,000 years ago. The result provides support for a wider picture, controversial among linguists, that the distribution of many language families today reflects the spread of agriculture in the distant past when farming populations, carrying their languages with them, grew in numbers and expanded at the expense of hunter-gatherers...more...

The rest of the article also follows in the next post.

Related FG Thread: Philology - Japanese and Korean

[Mulboyne]

[Mulboyne]

I'm surprised this is being described as new. The research methodology certainly sounds new but the underlying theory has been around for a while and was mentioned in our earlier thread which touched in the origins of language.

[Iraira]

I'm surprised this is being described as new. The research methodology certainly sounds new but the underlying theory has been around for a while and was mentioned in our earlier thread which touched in the origins of language.

Bayesian phylogeny is often used in calculating relatedness among species for highly conserved regions of DNA and mitochondrial DNA, and I suppose it could be applied to subsets of language. Still dunno why they just don't ask Greji since he arrived pre-Jomon.

[Ganma]

I don't think it's a new theory at all. The main problem with linking the language to the Korean peninsula is the lack of basic common vocabulary between Japanese and Korean. Although the grammar is basically the same the languages share hardly any core vocabulary. However it's not uncommon for languages to disappear from regions. The language of the Britons became relegated to Wales and was replaced by Anglo-Saxon German. The great European migrations to the Americas, Australia and NZ has turned previous human populations into minorities and pushed their languages to extinction. So the same thing may have happened with ancestors of the Japanese in Korea.

[Coligny]

I don't think it's a new theory at all. The main problem with linking the language to the Korean peninsula is the lack of basic common vocabulary between Japanese and Korean. Although the grammar is basically the same the languages share hardly any core vocabulary. However it's not uncommon for languages to disappear from regions. The language of the Britons became relegated to Wales and was replaced by Anglo-Saxon German. The great European migrations to the Americas, Australia and NZ has turned previous human populations into minorities and pushed their languages to extinction. So the same thing may have happened with ancestors of the Japanese in Korea.

A bit like old French and modern french... Or like Toyohashi-Go and Hokkaido-go...

In fact... with their habit of randomly using words for 1 month and forgotting aboot them the next you just need to take a 1 year sabbatical oversea to come back in a country where you don't speak the language anymore...

[Mulboyne]

The theory isn't saying that Japonic has its origins in Korean. rather its saying that Japonic has its origins in the language which was spoken by the settlers from the Korean peninsular who established the Yayoi civilization. No-one can be certain how close that language was to the languages which went on to become Korean but it seems fair to imagine that there was some similarity.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Origins aside, Mr. Lee's findings still do not account for why Japanese is the world's most difficult language. It uses four different types of writing...(one for each of the seasons, perhaps?)

[Taro Toporific]

Japanese language traced to Korean Peninsula: study
AFP -- May 5, 2011
PARIS -- Japan's many dialects originate in a migration of farmers from the Korean Peninsula some 2,200 years ago, a groundbreaking study borrowing the tools of evolutionary genetics reported Wednesday.
The findings suggest that Japan's many language variants -- and by extension much of its culture -- did not emerge, as widely believed by many Japanese, primarily from indigenous hunter-gatherers already present on the archipelago for millennia...more...

[Yokohammer]

No! My entire belief system is shattered!

That means ... (*gasp*) ,,, Takechanpoo's ancestors are Korean!!!

[cstaylor]

No! My entire belief system is shattered!

That means ... (*gasp*) ,,, Takechanpoo's ancestors are Korean!!!

AFAIK, only approximately 25% of Japan's population has genetic roots from the Korean peninsula.

Takechan's reply would probably be summed up as: culture > genetics. On this I would agree.

[TennoChinko]

Emperor Akikhito has already acknowledged his Korean roots so it's not so much a shocker as some might think. And, doing so makes Japanese no more "Korean" than "humans are apes or chimpanzees." However in the fucked-up Asian/anthro values system, there is an "pwning system" in place where it seems to matter who influenced whom. Outside of that, no one seems to give a fuck.

[Yokohammer]

AFAIK, only approximately 25% of Japan's population has genetic roots from the Korean peninsula.

Takechan's reply would probably be summed up as: culture > genetics. On this I would agree.

That does it ... back to the woodshed.
I am really going to have to work on my satirical technique.

[Greji]

:nihonjin:
Japanese language traced to Korean Peninsula: study
AFP -- May 5, 2011
PARIS -- Japan's many dialects originate in a migration of farmers from the Korean Peninsula some 2,200 years ago, a groundbreaking study borrowing the tools of evolutionary genetics reported Wednesday.
The findings suggest that Japan's many language variants -- and by extension much of its culture -- did not emerge, as widely believed by many Japanese, primarily from indigenous hunter-gatherers already present on the archipelago for millennia...more...

Shit! Takechan, whadda we do now? Well, the good thing is that McToto is now unemployed.....

[Takechanpoo]

You gaijin dudes better also remember that ancient "Korean" are almost different from present-day Korean who had been raped by Mongolian and Han race numerous times.
And intelligent Japanese people never have been reluctant to admit that most of Japanese ancestors(especially traditional ruling class's) are from that peninsula.

[cstaylor]

And intelligent Japanese people never have been reluctant to admit that most of Japanese ancient invaders (especially traditional ruling class's) are from that peninsula.

FTFY.

[BigInJapan]

[Greji]

You gaijin dudes better also remember that ancient "Korean" are almost different from present-day Korean who had been raped by Mongolian and Han race numerous times.

Was that the girls only?

[bolt_krank]

I'm sure Blinky's prepared to re-write the books and say it was the otherway around Korea stole language from Japan, or some shit like that.

[TennoChinko]

I'm sure Blinky's prepared to re-write the books and say it was the otherway around Korea stole language from Japan, or some shit like that.

I kinda doubt it.

Don't want to come off sounding like rooboy but it's the Koreans who have always been hyper-spastic on trying to lay claim to nearly everything to the point of ridiculousness. What's that saying? "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile"?

Here are some real silly examples (and ones I have had 'preached' to me by nationalist Koreans):

1. Sushi is Korean
forum.koreansentry

2. Jesus was Korean
[YT]ARntHwTONN0[/YT]

3. America was discovered by Koreans
[YT]OEba68tEuFw[/YT]

4. Koreans invented modern flight
[YT]5nX_g0I1Pyk[/YT]

5. Inca and Mayan civilization is Korean
[YT]ReGXaqZ7p2U[/YT]

6. Basically all technology was invented by Korea
[YT]ksct0zqEyWo[/YT]

7. None of this surprising as Koreans are the best race
[YT]W9CwL-ds_Cc[/YT]

8. Koreans invented civilization as we know it
[YT]FjIfWtCp29M[/YT]


For all the nutjob nationalistic Japanese I have met or heard of, I've never had fish stories like the ones propagated by Koreans.

[xenomorph42]

I kinda doubt it.

Don't want to come off sounding like rooboy but it's the Koreans who have always been hyper-spastic on trying to lay claim to nearly everything to the point of ridiculousness. What's that saying? "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile"?

Here are some real silly examples (and ones I have had 'preached' to me by nationalist Koreans):

1. Sushi is Korean
forum.koreansentry

2. Jesus was Korean
[YT]ARntHwTONN0[/YT]

3. America was discovered by Koreans
[YT]OEba68tEuFw[/YT]

4. Koreans invented modern flight
[YT]5nX_g0I1Pyk[/YT]

5. Inca and Mayan civilization is Korean
[YT]ReGXaqZ7p2U[/YT]

6. Basically all technology was invented by Korea
[YT]ksct0zqEyWo[/YT]

7. None of this surprising as Koreans are the best race
[YT]W9CwL-ds_Cc[/YT]

8. Koreans invented civilization as we know it
[YT]FjIfWtCp29M[/YT]


For all the nutjob nationalistic Japanese I have met or heard of, I've never had fish stories like the ones propagated by Koreans.

They really believe this crap??? I thought the Japanese were bad, but Jeeeez! This takes the cake!

[ChargerCarl]

Here are some real silly examples (and ones I have had 'preached' to me by nationalist Koreans):

Have you really had someone preach to you that Jesus was Korean?

If so thats fucking hilarious.

[TennoChinko]

Have you really had someone preach to you that Jesus was Korean?

If so thats fucking hilarious.

Almost everything but the 'Jesus was Korean' bit.... 'Sushi is Korean', 'Submarines, airplanes ... all modern technology as we know it - is Korean', 'Korean language is the most "scientific" in the world', 'Korean people are the "purest race" in the world', 'Korean food is the healthiest in the world', 'Korean fashion is the best in the world -- famous French designers are stealing ingenious Korean fashion' (explaining away the counterfeits in Itaewon) ... 'the reason why you don't hear this as often as you should is because so many people are jealous of Korea ... since Korea is the best place in the world'.

While I've certainly met 'Japan is #1' type of nationalists, I've never encountered anyone or any group of Japanese so blindly intent on evangelizing their views to others as the Koreans often do.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Who gives a fuck about stupid nationalists anywhere...we're all Africans. Mind you, I must have missed the DNA part that dictates schlong length. When I look at my little feller, I reckon I must have more than my fair share of Korean or Japanese blood in me.
Ah...wis I was hung like a brother. Unfortunately, I only ever got as far as bro'.

[Takechanpoo]

Kimchese are ugly bitches having over-selfconsciousness and schizophrenia. Never believe what those creatures say especially about Japan.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Kimchese are ugly bitches.

Until the Japanese fix their teeth and the women grow straight long legs and asses, you're pretty much the pot calling the kettle black.

[Iraira]

Kimchese are ugly bitches having over-selfconsciousness and schizophrenia. Never believe what those creatures say especially about Japan.

Should we believe what Japanese say about Koreans?

[matsuki]

I kinda doubt it.

Don't want to come off sounding like rooboy but it's the Koreans who have always been hyper-spastic on trying to lay claim to nearly everything to the point of ridiculousness. What's that saying? "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile"?

For all the nutjob nationalistic Japanese I have met or heard of, I've never had fish stories like the ones propagated by Koreans.

THIS X999999999999999

Met plenty of retard nationalist Japanese but Korean nationalists are far more bizarre with their claims and so numerous I'd almost say it's mainstream.

Considering there is no biological definition of race (we're all fucking human...well, cept Greji, he prefers goats) how would one "define" a Korean or Japanese anyway?

Also, on the Native Americans being Korean issue, we have the same mongol spot on our asses when we're born that many Japanese, Koreans, and Mongolians have. We have the same "DNA Roots" from Mongolia as many Japanese and Koreans do. BUT, depending on the civilization, our linguistic roots are all over the place. My father's side is Apache/Navajo and they speak slightly different variations of Athabaskan, as do some tribes in California, Washington, and Alaska...last I heard, linguists were pretty convinced the origins of this set of language was somewhere in Tibet, and had pretty much fallen out of use even there.

[rooboy]

Thanx for that, real talk. Very interesting re the Native American connections w/Mongolians etc.

Yep, Koreans believe all the dumbarse shit in those videos, their views are so easy to parody that prob a few of the vides on youtube are satire. BUT the fucking views are the same - ol bullshit proganda taught to the Koreans by fascist govts after the K War, taught when the J's moved in to Korea and could dismiss the backwards, disorganised Korean army in the late 19th century and deal w/their disorganised, backwards ruling class easily.

If 'Korea' had been a real nation and worth a cracker, they wouldn't have buried their heads in the sand for centuries like ostriches. Their 'nationalism' came about mostly thru foreign missionaries etc in the 19th century who encouraged the fuckers to think of themselves as a nation instead of a cuntry where 80 percent of peasants and lower classes made up most of the population but yangban ruled like it was the 14th century.

But from everything I hear from foreign vets of working in Korea, theres no fucking gratitude whatsoever for anything from any other country tho Korea owes all its development from the 19th century onwards to the terrible foreigners. Thats a fucking obvious pattern in Korea - can't open up to the world so in the end it's done for them and all the benefits etc (sanitation, technology, end of the feudal system etc in the 19th century, civilisation in the 20th century) are then declared 'Korean'.

If you wanna see the Korean equivalent of Yasukuni, go to the Korean fucking disgraceful Independence Museum. Some actual Korean history mixed up with racist propaganda and plain ol bullshit.

The King Sejong Museum near the Oz Embassy in Seoul is just as bad - they list all these 'Korean inventions', have timelines that look like there was nothing coming out of Europe re printing presses, astronomy, and other inventions for centuries, they completely ignore the non Korean inventions that changed the world because nothing was really invented in Korea tho they lie about how they supposedly started printing first (nope they didn't, despite that progaganda bout Korean Buddhists doing it) and then state that in the 17th century or whatever f "In France ----- invented a scale". Fucking amazing how Koreans can skip along key contributions to humanity and belittle em to make it look like some Frog invented a scale and that's all. Koreans and their govt who paid for this piece of fascist type propaganda museum just show what losers they are.

Koreans insist they always were 'one race' and had 'national unity' altho they're basically the Mongols, Chinese, southeast Asians and others. My mate reckons the reason why the Korean ruling class (yangban) followed China is because they were Chinese, makes sense.

Koreans are completely ignorant of Sumer and all other earlier civilisations, they don't connect the fact that architecture often shows how advanced other people were, it doesn't occur to their ignorant arses that gothic cathedrals for example way back in the day show a knowledge of technology that they never had until Europeans and then Americans gave it to them.

Thats of course why they come on with their dogshit about Koreans did this and that - they are the retarded children in the classroom of civilisation.

[Samurai_Jerk]

If you wanna see the Korean equivalent of Yasukuni, go to the Korean fucking disgraceful Independence Museum. Some actual Korean history mixed up with racist propaganda and plain ol bullshit.

I'd say for pure propaganda value that Independence Hall is a lot worse but it is comedic gold. I couldn't believe some of the shit I read on the displays there and that was just the stuff they bothered to translate. There was so much more info in Korean and I'm sure it was even more over the top. I definitely recommend it to anyone with a dark sense of humor and/or an interest in propaganda.

Some highlights from my visit in '99 that I can remember:

- A description of the Korean race's physical characteristics that went something like this: A broad forehead suggests large brain capacity unlike Mongolians who have a narrow forehead.
- A description of a war where they beat a several hundred thousand strong Chinese army thus preserving the racial integrity of Korea.
- A sign above a display of Japanese weapons that said, "Used by Japanese Soldiers to Murder Koreans".
- A house or horrors/wax museum-style display of Japanese torture methods.
- One of the halls is actually called Japanese Agression Hall.