Take 'Notes' at your next J-torture

[Taro Toporific]

Notebooks made for foreign suspects
Japan Times (Kyodo) Thursday, Sept. 22, 2011
The Japan Federation of Bar Associations said Wednesday it has produced notebooks in other languages for foreign suspects to use during police questioning, part of efforts to prevent law enforcement authorities from conducting illegal interrogations or forging confessions...
...The notebooks have been designed for suspects to record details of their interrogations, including whether they understand interpretations or if interrogators accept requests for corrections to written statements, as well as any other matters that arise. One notebook covers up to 20 days of interrogations...more...

Download the official pdf.

[Greji]

Notebooks made for foreign suspects

Do they furnish you with a waterproof pen and goggles to take notes during the standard waterboarding?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Love the bloody graphics, Taro.

Anyway, it's not clear from the article but can I assume this is something your lawyer is supposed to give you once you've been arrested?

I know Japanese cops can detain you a long time for interrogation purposes. Does anyone know how soon they have to bring in a lawyer if requested?

[Ganma]

And here was I thinking this thread was going to about our resident J-man Takechan. ...nevermind.

[color="Red"]The Torture Never Stops
FZ[/color]

[Russell]

Do they furnish you with a waterproof pen and goggles to take notes during the standard waterboarding?

Not needed in Japan. Waterboarding has only been an interrogation technique for foreign suspects in some country that calls itself the champion of freedom...

[wuchan]

in my last two run-ins they did not allow me to have a pen. How is this going to work?

[Bucky]

Not needed in Japan. Waterboarding has only been an interrogation technique for foreign suspects in some country that calls itself the champion of freedom...

Waterboarding does have a bit more history to it than just the use by the CIA and other agencies of the cuntry you are referring to. Not that I am condoning it's use, but, and I understand this is from Wikipedia, far from a authoritative source, but:

During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[108] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[109] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[110][111][112]

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[113] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again... I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[37] The United States hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war.[

[Yokohammer]

in my last two run-ins they did not allow me to have a pen. How is this going to work?

Two run-ins in which you weren't even allowed to have a pen?

Jeez ... how do you guys do it? I've been here 40 years and have had a couple of, um, "discussions" with the local constabulary, but have never been in a situation where I've had stuff confiscated.

What brought that on?
(No need to answer if you don't want to ... I'll just assume it was some heinous deed on your part. )

[CrankyBastard]

in my last two run-ins they did not allow me to have a pen. How is this going to work?

One of these perhaps?

[matsuki]

Two run-ins in which you weren't even allowed to have a pen?

Jeez ... how do you guys do it? I've been here 40 years and have had a couple of, um, "discussions" with the local constabulary, but have never been in a situation where I've had stuff confiscated.

What brought that on?
(No need to answer if you don't want to ... I'll just assume it was some heinous deed on your part. )

I've only had one and all I gots to say is crazy womens....but with enough patience, their craziness shows to the po po's and suddenly they tables get turned.

[Russell]

Waterboarding does have a bit more history to it than just the use by the CIA and other agencies of the cuntry you are referring to. Not that I am condoning it's use, but, and I understand this is from Wikipedia, far from a authoritative source, but:

Sure the Japanese may have done it too, in WW 2, and they were punished for it:

The United States hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war.

When will those CIA agents be punished?

I am pissed off at the double standards.

[Christoff]

Not needed in Japan. Waterboarding has only been an interrogation technique for foreign suspects in some country that calls itself the champion of freedom...

Except for the japanese who were hung after the war for torture by way of waterboarding,

[Russell]

Except for the japanese who were hung after the war for torture by way of waterboarding,

So, they faced justice. When will that happen to the people in your free country who committed these horrendous crimes?

[Christoff]

So, they faced justice. When will that happen to the people in your free country who committed these horrendous crimes?

You didnt get the memo, it isnt a crime if we do it.

[Level3]

Waterboarding is torture, yes.
Torturing terrorists (who never follow the Geneva conventions in kind anyway) and/or mercenaries (less protection, under Geneva) vs. torturing uniformed soldiers is a matter of debate, which basically boils down to it being bad PR for the USA amongst people who already hate the USA, be it Iranian cleric or New York Times columnist. So what's the point?

AS for punishment. Maybe there should be "degrees of torture" like there are "degrees of murder".

First degree: Permanent physical injury possibly leading to death (cutting off limbs, stripping skin away, etc.)
Second degree: CIA/KGB-style professional physical torture that leaves no permanent physcial damage.

etc.

Down to "frat initiaion style prankery at the hands of females that Al Qaeda terrorists should be ashamed to be crying about like little bitches"

Motive should also play a role.
Torture for fun because your enemy is "racially inferior" vs. torture to extract info about a plot to blow up a market full of women and children?
Is there electric waterboarding? Give that Jack Bauer a fresh car battery and jumper cables!

Or we can just call them "spies" and do whatever we want to them. Including summary execution. Perfectly OK under Geneva to kill spies. Whatever happens between capture of a spy and bullet to the brain? Details..details..

[Ganma]

Sure the Japanese may have done it too, in WW 2, and they were punished for it:

The United States hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war.

When will those CIA agents be punished?

I am pissed off at the double standards.

Yes. I found it rather ironic too.

[Socratesabroad]

[Russell]

Waterboarding is torture, yes.
Torturing terrorists (who never follow the Geneva conventions in kind anyway) and/or mercenaries (less protection, under Geneva) vs. torturing uniformed soldiers is a matter of debate, which basically boils down to it being bad PR for the USA amongst people who already hate the USA, be it Iranian cleric or New York Times columnist. So what's the point?

These days it seems that nobody follows the Geneva conventions, even not uniformed soldiers. Regarding people who "already" hate the US, there certainly are such people, no excuse for that, though it is good to keep in mind why some do so. If an innocent family member of yours is killed by a drone attack directed by some "hero" sitting at the other end of the earth, you would hate the nation responsible for it too. This is an extreme example, but it is good to keep some historical perspective in mind. For example, in 1953 the democratically elected Mossadeq government in Iran was overthrown in a British / US operation for no other reason than that he wanted his people to share more in the profits of its oil wealth. His replacement, the Shah, was a US puppet who never succeeded in winning his people's hearts, so to speak. We all know how this story ended. Without this coup, Iran may have been a very different country, with clerics playing a much smaller role in its society. Regarding the columnists of the NYT hating the USA, when was the last time you read this news paper? David Brooks or Thomas Friedman hating the US? Come on!

As for punishment. Maybe there should be "degrees of torture" like there are "degrees of murder".

First degree: Permanent physical injury possibly leading to death (cutting off limbs, stripping skin away, etc.)
Second degree: CIA/KGB-style professional physical torture that leaves no permanent physcial damage.

Talking of a sliding scale. Last time I checked, some suspects were killed in the process. If that is no physical damage, what is? Also, waterboarding leaves serious psychological scars, even if subjected to it one time. There was one guy who was waterboarded more than 100 times, and then he "confessed" to being the mastermind of 911. What credibility does such a confession have? Still this confession is accepted as evidence in a US court. That sounds to me like they have adopted the concept of "degrees of justice". I might be a bit old-fashioned in all this, but I think that the last decade will be viewed as a black page in the history of the US (and of the part of the world collaborating in these practices).

Down to "frat initiaion style prankery at the hands of females that Al Qaeda terrorists should be ashamed to be crying about like little bitches"

Motive should also play a role.
Torture for fun because your enemy is "racially inferior" vs. torture to extract info about a plot to blow up a market full of women and children?
Is there electric waterboarding? Give that Jack Bauer a fresh car battery and jumper cables!

Or we can just call them "spies" and do whatever we want to them. Including summary execution. Perfectly OK under Geneva to kill spies. Whatever happens between capture of a spy and bullet to the brain? Details..details..

It has never been proven that torture can extract those details. And, BTW, many of these tortured were innocent, and just made stuff up to satisfy their torturers.

Finally, if you wish to justify torture by speculating about motives of suspects, how do you know their motives, and who is to decide if they are "worthy" of being tortured?

I am not saying all of this in order to achieve some abstract ideal society, but because of serious worries about how our democratic societies evolve. Did you know that the US president can decide without any intervention by the judicial system to kill someone on the face of this earth, whether that person is a US citizen or not? Scary, isn't it?

And if some other nation on this earth will gain the same power in the future that the US currently has (yes, I am talking about China), how will we perceive its actions if it follows the examples of the US? Scary, isn't it?

[6810]

And if some other nation on this earth will gain the same power in the future that the US currently has (yes, I am talking about China), how will we perceive its actions if it follows the examples of the US? Scary, isn't it?

That'S the point, right there. Up to now and currently the US administration (and friends) is the world's bully. It takes on and then takes out weak opponents for its own material gain.

Now what happens when China decides to do the same? How will China's concepts of who is "weak", who is "valuable" and who is a "threat". Will we judge the Chinese administration and military with the some ambivalence we have judged our own?

Or will be outraged? And in such a case, won't those we are raging against simply say: "Fuck you bitches, you sold us all your assets, we reproduced your technology and we've raised an army of whose mere fart could crush you. Our economy fucks yours sideways with a barbwire wrapped basket ball. We're No.1! We're No.1!We're No.1! China, China!".

Imperial de ja vu, anyone?

[Russell]

For starters, "some country that calls itself the champion of freedom" may be your snarky reference to the US, but individuals far better than you have described the US as just that, a champion of freedom...

like

No doubt the Daila Lama is far "better" than I am]And even critics of waterboarding recognize that its nastier earlier incarnation, water torture, was around long before the US even existed.
[/QUOTE]
And your point is? If waterboarding was around before, it is justified now?

Let's hear a concurring view from someone who was actually subjected to the practice, like

Her claim that she is the only UK person who have undergone waterboarding and survived is false. For starters, Christopher Hitchens let himself be subjected to it too, and he was not amused.

They may very well be punished. Perpetrators, even American perpetrators, have been punished before.

Not holding my breath. Obama has had a couple of years to start the proceedings, but there is not much action on this front, isn't it?

Try to be less disingenuous. Either the US has standards, i.e. championing freedom/liberty, and has stumbled on the path to meeting those standards.
Or the US never had standards in the first place, in which case there are, by definition, no "double" standards.

This is all academic, really, since a reasoned debate about waterboarding and torture is available here.

I am not disingenuous. I clearly choose your first option, i.e., "the US has standards, i.e. championing freedom/liberty, and has stumbled on the path to meeting those standards", because it is the option with the most hope for a peaceful future. It is also in line with the US constitution. If a reasoned debate about waterboarding is available, as you noticed, all the better, but it does not discourage me from debating it here. What got me there was the reference of Greiji to waterboarding by Japanese police. I know he was probably just joking about this, but it is disingenuous to hear this from a US citizen, while the US has something to be ashamed about in this regard.

[Socratesabroad]

Or will be outraged? And in such a case, won't those we are raging against simply say: "Fuck you bitches, you sold us all your assets, we reproduced your technology and we've raised an army of whose mere fart could crush you. Our economy fucks yours sideways with a barbwire wrapped basket ball. We're No.1! We're No.1!We're No.1! China, China!".

Do I have to go through all this yet again?!?!

As for the blazing Chinese economy and all that, I used to think China would be an economic powerhouse - until I started living here. Now, I realize that China has the potential to be a pretty powerful nation, but they have a long way to go. Regularly serviced indoor plumbing and piping would be a start. Traffic laws of any form might also be a bonus, seeing as how pedestrians nonchalantly walk across highways and car drivers seem to consider use of items like brakes and turn signals 'optional.' Recycling/conservation of any form whatsoever, especially since they just tend to throw crap they don't need anywhere or demolish an old building and just cart the rubble away - in actual hand carts (then again, there's still a pile of trash sitting outside my apt building from a room 'reform' [renovation], oh, about 4 months ago...). Quality assurance - any Chinese store selling electrical goods will always have the salesperson show you that the actual device in question - yes, they take it out of the box right in front of you - works. Yep. Infrastructure investment - imagine approaching a large bank with a beautiful granite exterior, tinted and beveled glass windows, nicely laid brick - and a hand-printed sign saying that the revolving door is out of order, with yellowed duct tape all around indicating that the repairman's not gonna be right over.

I think you get the point.

And I think I forgot to mention that this took so long since my ADSL, the fastest available anywhere in Tianjin, is a whopping 4MB....

Seven years later, and so little has changed...

[Socratesabroad]

[Russell]

Russell, you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. The linked article only said that the Dalai Lama granted an interview with Fox News. Moreover, they weren't even the ones paying for his trip.

And for a little kicker, you might be surprised to learn that the Dalai Lama has no qualms criticizing the US.

So, what was your point again? That the Daila Lama praised the US, or criticized it? Why cite him in the first place? To prove that he is "better" than I am? Is that a way to discuss?

Quit moving the goalposts. If you forgot, your original point was that

waterboarding has only been an interrogation technique for foreign suspects in some country that calls itself the champion of freedom...

No moving of goal posts here. I was just saying that it is "only an interrogation technique for foreign subjects", "only" being used as an understatement with a cynical undertone, while you apparently interpret it as if it has "only been applied in the US." Of course, I have been fully aware that waterboarding is no US invention.

But as the linked articles abundantly demonstrated, water torture/the "water cure" and its modern incarnation known as waterboarding have been around for hundreds of years, so the practice is not restricted to the US or some American affectation. Whether waterboarding is justified or not is an entirely separate question (in fact, the debate I linked to answers this very question).

Sure, I do not deny that waterboarding has been around hundreds of years, I am saying that that does not justify its recent use, which is mainly by the US and some of its allies.

Again with the reading comprehension. Eric Lomax is 1) clearly a guy's name and 2) someone who, as a POW, underwent full-on water torture at the hands of an enemy (as opposed to waterboarding in a controlled environment).
And that's exactly what he said:

You are correct with the name, being a guy's.
Regarding him undergoing waterboarding, so what, that does not undercut my argument that waterboarding is a torture that causes major trauma, even to someone who underwent it in a controlled environment.

Slight problem here: you're not debating or discussing, you're making facetious pronouncements, and often intellectually lazy ones at that.

What you are doing is trying to negate everything I say, rather than going to the core of what I am saying, which is that:
1) waterboarding is a crime
2) it needs to be punished
3) nations that do not punish people committing these crimes should be ashamed.

Again with the dual standard argument. The US had its Saul to Paul conversion, and yet it still "has something to be ashamed about"?

What conversion are you talking about? The election of Obama? Even with his election, there has been no accountability for the war crimes committed under the previous administration.

Apparently there's no statute of limitations on shame over supposed past wrongdoings.

So, what do you propose, a 2 year statute of limitations for war crimes?

Worse yet is the unquestioned presumption of shame in the first place. Is there no distinction to be drawn between waterboarding which sought to obtain information to prevent further attacks, and water torture intended to subjugate (by, say, "extorting alleged confessions from persons in their power...[and using] statements obtained under torture, or alleged statements, in proceedings against the victims.") and punish (for, say, "committing crimes against the Vietnamese people")?

Torture is torture, and it seems you wish to justify it by all means. Where is the proof that important information was uncovered through waterboarding? There is none. It horrifies me that you do not understand the severity of the acts committed. Sounds like a sliding scale of morality to me.

[wuchan]

either you are drunk or you are not in japan....

[Galison]

[Mike Oxlong]

That's the bar, eh...?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7380680n

[Greji]

Sure the Japanese may have done it too, in WW 2, and they were punished for it:

When will those CIA agents be punished?

I am pissed off at the double standards.

I was waterboarded during Survial Training and didn't die. It sure as hell ain't torture and a lot less than others have been through. Yanked out fingernails, smashed balls, electric current to the Ped of the Hecker, etc.

BTW I'm glad you're pissed.

[Taro Toporific]

... smashed balls, electric current to the Ped of the Hecker, etc.

Sounds like my typical hospital visit or your last hostess bar [color="Silver"](much the same)[/color].

[Coligny]

Or breakfast...

as we call it down there...

[Coligny]

I was waterboarded during Survial Training and didn't die.

Dood, christenning don't count...

NOT been there...

neither done that...

Thank's god for my communist(*) father

But I saw it on th3 telly... not tempting...

(*) back then...