Rudder trim !?

[Coligny]

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110929p2g00m0dm016000c.html

Selected quote:

"The unintended maneuver was caused when the co-pilot, in trying to unlock the cockpit door for the captain who was returning from a rest room in the cabin, mistook the rudder trim knob for the cockpit door lock switch nearby."

The level of bullshit in that statement is next to surrealistic...

wait...

I see a pattern here...

[damn name]

As usual, Coligny is full of shit.

The switch for opening cockpit doors is not standard and can be decided and installed by the company operating the aircraft. Many 737 pilots have reported that they've flown 737-700's with a rotary switch for the door located very near the rotary switch for rudder trim.
They're both located at the rear of the center control panel.

[Mike Oxlong]

So the pilot couldn't tell the difference between a big and small knob...is that what you're saying?

*[SIZE="1"][color="gray"]the bottom-center knobs are supposedly the ones in question[/color][/SIZE]

[Coligny]

And I fuck you Damn name. You are like a fungal infection... apparently natural... but unwanted and toxic...

Maybe you're covering them out of solidarity between retards, but tell me how a trained pilot supposed to know the layout of the plane by heart can mistook the round self centered rudder trim with the blade shaped selector switch of the door lock ?



This... and the fact that you really need to be dull as a stone to pull enough of a trim to put the plane in such a manoeuvre without correcting... It's a trim... these things are not designed to move fast...

(and before we get there: no the 1990 crash was not du to the same circumstances http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR90-03.pdf)

[Coligny]

As usual, Coligny is full of shit.

The switch for opening cockpit doors is not standard and can be decided and installed by the company operating the aircraft. Many 737 pilots have reported that they've flown 737-700's with a rotary switch for the door located very near the rotary switch for rudder trim.
They're both located at the rear of the center control panel.

I just want to highlight here the minboggling stupidity of this statement... (if used as an argument). Of course as a blank declaration it's close to a Lapalissade. The same way you can say "many race drivers have reported sitting in cars with a set of pedals under their feets"... It's like a fox news headline... sensationalisation of something... more than obvious. something made the way it should be, but said in a way where the teller seems to expect surprise or fear from the audience... (some people says... that after walking under the rain they were all wet... OMG WTF BBQ!!!!)

Damn, did the FAA act on those reports ? seems like somebody put these switches on purpose on this control panel thingy... or did they grow by themselves ? Might be an alien intelligent life form... what do you preconise ? put switches 1 meter appart ? or in different section of the plane ? OR EMPLOY PILOTS WITH AN IQ A LITTLE MORE ABOVE ROOM TEMPERATURE...

[damn name]

They're both push and hold type. If the co-pilot continued to hold the rudder trim knob, waiting for the door to open (which it didn't), then the auto-pilot would try to counteract the excessive rudder trim being applied. The opposite roll was textbook gyroscopic effect of yaw after release of the rudder trim knob.

Yes, the co-pilot would have made a mistake in holding the rudder trim instead of cabin door switch, but Coligny's suggestion that the scenario is bullshit is even bigger bullshit. What is his suggestion of what really happened?

[Coligny]

Video of the event: http://www.fnn-news.com/news/headlines/articles/CONN00208490.html

Yes, I maintain that putting the blame on the rudder trim switch is bullshit. The copilot made 2 rooky mistakes:

1- pulled the wrong switch.
2- was unable to correct in a timely fashion the reaction of the plane. Certainly disoriented by the night sky.

Phrasing the incident as "the twin-engine jet rolled to the left and descended after slightly rolling to the right when a co-pilot mistakenly operated the rudder trim knob in the cockpit" Like if that damn switch was the devil himself is just a good way to hide the fact that the copilot is a complete moron who should not be let anywhere near a cockpit. As usual, the blame is placed on whatever cover as much asses as possible.

BTW, I see no documentation suggesting the door lock switch is temporary. Everything including the writing on the panel imply it to be a 3 HELD positions rotary switch hence the "unlock" "auto" "deny" label.

[nikoneko]

Okay I have been online since 300 baud and I am not sure even through all that I have seen a more nerdy fued. Can you two just kiss and make up all ready? It's obvious you're gonna be best friends eventually discussing how to trim each other's rudders and such..

[damn name]

I just told how it could happen. It's another conspiracy, huh?

You're an idiot. You scratch the surface of a topic with a few buzzwords, but know nothing. You're just a parasite loser and a housewife. Shut the fuck up and go do the laundry.

[Coligny]

You're an idiot. You scratch the surface of a topic with a few buzzwords, but know nothing. You're just a parasite loser and a housewife. Shut the fuck up and go do the laundry.

Funny... that's exactly what you're doing in every conversation concerning Daiichi...

And for you're information since it's another topic where you speak but know jack shit. Laundry is done in the morning so it can dry with the afternoon sun.

[Tsuru]

At high alt and high mach you would be surprised how little movement is required to cause a large upset. Also, the autopilot held the roll in the first instant, it was only after the control forces on the roll axis became too high that the autopilot tripped off and the aircraft suddenly and very violently rolled to the left.

I have access to several full flight simulators for this exact type, if you want I can make a video of what happens to lay this argument to rest.

[wuchan]

At high alt and high mach you would be surprised how little movement is required to cause a large upset. Also, the autopilot held the roll in the first instant, it was only after the control forces on the roll axis became too high that the autopilot tripped off and the aircraft suddenly and very violently rolled to the left.

I have access to several full flight simulators for this exact type, if you want I can make a video of what happens to lay this argument to rest.

I was waiting for this post.

[Tsuru]

It is a question of ergonomics... The location of the door knob differs between airlines, but in our machines it is located in the lower right corn of the pedestal. The 737NG is notorious for switches being mixed up, like disengaging the hydraulics when you want to disengage the anti-icing system, or turning the wrong knob on the autopilot MCP. It's not surprising when you consider most aspects of the 737 flightdeck as still the same as they were in 1965, and they are hard at work making an new version of that called the 737MAX.

[Coligny]

I have access to several full flight simulators for this exact type, if you want I can make a video of what happens to lay this argument to rest.

The argument is not exactly aboot wether or not this situation can happen because of a mis-trimming (since... it did). But more aboot not blaming a switch when it all comes down to human error/incompetence coming from pilots who's training usually don't even include speaking a proper english...

The way I see this article, it would be like blaming and engine revving too much for a high speed car crash... technically brilliant, factually accurate... but totally meaningless... It's drowning in minute details to hide the big picture, the tree hiding the forest. Putting the blame on the evil american aircraft while it's a typical PBCaC (problem between controls and chair)

[Jack]

I just told how it could happen. It's another conspiracy, huh?.

Of course it is a conspiracy. It happened on a Japanese airline right? So the pilot obviously is an inferior breed that the white english kind that Colingy belongs to.

[Jack]

[quote="Coligny"]it all comes down to human error/incompetence coming from pilots who's training usually don't even include speaking a proper english...
QUOTE]

I rest my fucking case. The racist has finally spoken the truth.

English is on its way out baby. get used to the inferior status.

[damn name]

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110929p2g00m0dm016000c.html

Selected quote:

"The unintended maneuver was caused when the co-pilot, in trying to unlock the cockpit door for the captain who was returning from a rest room in the cabin, mistook the rudder trim knob for the cockpit door lock switch nearby."

The level of bullshit in that statement is next to surrealistic...

wait...

I see a pattern here...

^^ That is what you said.

Exactly how is that bullshit? What is the pattern?

To the rest of us who live on planet Earth, it sounds like a plausible start in the chain of events in the incident. It's called "pilot error."

Nowhere in the article is "the switch" being blamed for the incident. You misunderstand the article. Be a man and just admit that you made a mistake.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I have access to several full flight simulators for this exact type, if you want I can make a video of what happens to lay this argument to rest.

Thanks all the same, but personally I'd prefer to watch one of the videos Coligny makes where those on screen are also laid to rest, so to speak.

[matsuki]

Of course it is a conspiracy. It happened on a Japanese airline right? So the pilot obviously is an inferior breed that the white english kind that Colingy belongs to.

it all comes down to human error/incompetence coming from pilots who's training usually don't even include speaking a proper english...

I rest my fucking case. The racist has finally spoken the truth.

English is on its way out baby. get used to the inferior status.

Hey Jack, English-speaking does not a race make. English is the International Language of Aviation. (though you wouldn't know it based on most Japanese pilots and their English ability)

[Mike Oxlong]

Hey Jack, English-speaking does not a race make. English is the International Language of Aviation. (though you wouldn't know it based on most Japanese pilots and their English ability)

...

[Coligny]

^^ That is what you said.

Exactly how is that bullshit? What is the pattern?

To the rest of us who live on planet Earth, it sounds like a plausible start in the chain of events in the incident. It's called "pilot error."

Nowhere in the article is "the switch" being blamed for the incident. You misunderstand the article. Be a man and just admit that you made a mistake.

Sorry but you are the imbecile who polarised the thread immediately with ad hominems. And brilliant rethoric like "Many 737 pilots have reported that they've flown 737-700's with a rotary switch for the door located very near the rotary switch for rudder trim."


Maybe it's just over analysis from me but, but look at the way things are written, there is always a shield between the statement concerning the co-pilot error and the wrong reaction of the plane:

"when a co-pilot mistakenly operated the rudder trim knob"

"mistook the rudder trim knob for the cockpit..."

Both case, they don't say "the co-pilot lost control of the plane" or "a human error from the copilot".
Instead it's always: pushed the wrong button AND then it put the plane near belly up.

Meanwhile, when speaking aboot the recovery:

" the co-pilot stabilized the aircraft" here, it's described directly as a recovery thanks to the copilot action. They don't say "corrected his error" or "finally realised his mistake"

DM it's not because you don't understand what people say that you can attribute to their statement the meaning you hope to make your sad pathetic diatribe appears insightfull.

I rest my fucking case. The racist has finally spoken the truth.

English is on its way out baby. get used to the inferior status

You need rest more than your case... Just missing Tokyo Joe and Thug4Life with you and Damn Name to have the Dumbtastic 4 in this thread... Can you combine together to make something like a beheaded Voltron wandering aimlessly while toppling furniture ?

Dear idiot:
-I'm French... I'm actively waiting for the english language to become extinct so we can recover our former glory (the road is long and we are actually backpedalling).
-English is the official language in the sky. It started with world war II when pilots form everywhere were taking the skies together to boot the krauts out of it. Never heard of the Free French Air Force ? (FAFL: Forces Aeriennes Francaises Libres) or read "Big show" from Clostermann ?


As for the pattern appearing:

1-Blame things on technicalities.

2-Hide the bigger reason behind the happenstance of 1

3-Report things late enough for nobody to really care anymore...

4-Punish some figurhead and ask them to say they are sorry for:
"causing tremendous trouble and anxiety to our passengers"

Instead of "risking their lives" at the hand of an unproperly trained crew.

Now another recent event:

1-Blame things on technicalities: A tsunami disabled the plant.

2-Hide the bigger reason: The plant was already tits up because of the quake supposed to be able to withstand (but bringing liabilities), it was build shoddily and out of spec from the blueprint (+bad maintenance, cover ups of previous accident, even the original blueprint were downsized to reduce cost)

3-Report things late enough: actual statement on the release of plutonium found outside the plant.

4-I'm pretty sure I saw some guy in a black suit bow and say "...mmm sorry mmm'kay..." on the telly...

[damn name]

You're full of shit. You're like a 12 year old with ADD.

Recovery was simple, rudder trim deflects the rudder pedals from neutral postion, so he would have noticed it easily (just like dead leg, dead engine for an engine out in a twin - it's easy to figure it out) and applied opposite rudder according to the artificial horizon, then set the AP back on after the unusual attitude was stabilized. Coligny, I had plenty of hours in my log book before you were born since you're apparently a 1970's baby. Please fuck off.

That should be the final word on this thread, and you.

[Coligny]

You're full of shit. You're like a 12 year old with ADD.

I'm pretty sure to have written this somewhere aboot you some times ago...

Recovery was simple, rudder trim deflects the rudder pedals from neutral postion, so he would have noticed it easily (just like dead leg, dead engine for an engine out in a twin - it's easy to figure it out) and applied opposite rudder according to the artificial horizon, then set the AP back on after the unusual attitude was stabilized.

Why are you pulling a Mary Sue ? The game of what should be done to correct the attitude of the plane can be played until dawn, that's not the point. You're once again just namedropping to make you look smarter than you are.

The problem is aboot a rooky mistake and how it was described to put the blame away from the pilot.

And yes if you want to go this way, rudder action trigger turn creating dissymetrical lift from the wings inducing the start of a roll. But when I'm nearly upside down I usually try to correct with the yoke first then fly in crab until the cause is found (tipped by the turn indicator in this case, but since I've not always been in planes with such luxurious items I learned to trust my chewing gum instead) then reset the trim it usually work in Cessna, no garantee for tourist bus... And I will never know since the mix of meteo exam and bad eyesight put me out of reach from the pointies (and don't even go toward the psycho-tests...) so I gave up. My sister continued but is only VFR certified.

But it's not aboot how to fly a plane, it's aboot mistake that should not occur from the start and who took way too long to be recovered. IF YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR PLANE UPSIDE DOWN to realise you didn't open the door but screwed with the trims, you might not have your place in a cockpit. I would really not want to see these guys try to land in a storm.

Coligny, I had plenty of hours in my log book before you were born since you're apparently a 1970's baby. Please fuck off.

Great, nuclear specialist, airplane specialist which next of your pseudo competence are to be taken for god's words in replacement of any proper argumentation ?

[Tsuru]

As the plane was in cruise he most likely did not have his feet on the pedals, and possibly did not even have his seat in the forward position. I'm sorry Coligny, but something like this can happen and takes even the best of pilots a couple of seconds to figure out. From my experience with sims alone, I can attest to the fact that when shit hits the fan, suddenly finding yourself behind the aircraft and nearly upside down with the earth filling the whole windscreen is a major challenge even for the most experienced 737 TRE in the world.
The rudder trim is a very powerful control which on the 737 doesn't move a trim tab, but hydraulically moves the neutral position of the rudder to compensate for an engine-out scenario and would have taken more than "just a bit of yoke" to overpower.

 Blame shitty ergonomics, this guy did an admirable job losing only 6000 feet in this situation and not breaking the airplane.

It's always easy to conclude from reading the report in your comfy chair at home that the pilot was an idiot and why didn't he just do this and bla bla bla, but the fact of the matter is you don't know until you have been in the hot seat yourself and that's the goddamn truth.

[damn name]

Coligny: I'm a mechanical engineer who took an option in nuclear engineering. I said that in the beginning. And yes, I flew for many years with a Multi, Commercial and Instrument rating. Some of us are the real deal and not bullshit artists like you.

You can't answer my question about why the story is "bullshit," as you called it, because you don't know enough. You need to stop blowing this nonsense out of your butt. Talk about something you actually know a little something about, or ask questions instead of spewing nonsense. You can fool some people, but dropping little shitballs of jargon here and there doesn't fool most of us.

And to MikeOxlong - if you think that Coligny "owned" me in this thread, then you're just as big of an idiot as he is.

Yes, Tsuru, you're right. The 37 has a large surface area rudder. I'm sure you're interested in this story if you're in the business since the 737 has a history of uncommanded rudder hard overs that have caused fatalities. People want to know if this was a pilot-induced incident or another uncommanded system error. I'm glad to hear it sounds like a pilot error.

fini

[Coligny]

The rudder trim is a very powerful control which on the 737 doesn't move a trim tab, but hydraulically moves the neutral position of the rudder to compensate for an engine-out scenario and would have taken more than "just a bit of yoke" to overpower.

Blame shitty ergonomics, this guy did an admirable job losing only 6000 feet in this situation and not breaking the airplane.

After doing an admirable job of putting himself in said situation.
I'm not contesting the aerodynamical function or efficiency of the trim rudder.

I'm heavily criticising apologetic behaviour toward a pilot for which big part of the job is to know which button is where and does what. In fair weather condition, in a plane known for decades to have potentially confusing controls between rudder and door lock, even if fitted with differently shaped knob and also probably with a different behaviour. (3 positions of self centering ?). To have jeopardized the safety of the flight by doing a sloppy job. I Maintain that this guy have no place in a cockpit as he clearly don't know the layout, I'm pretty sure the sims you work on have a requirement to be able to have the cockpit filled with artificial smoke for emergency training, which would be exactly the case were you would need to be able to open the door while not fucking with the rudder.
The possibility for someone to hold a job should be linked to his ability to do it, not to the cost of his training (which here was not enough it seems) or the difficulty of firing him. If you can't do the job, find another one, it's not because you have an uniform that you can fill it. (Same goes for doctors there is actually 2 at least at the local obgyn ward that should not even be allowed anywhere near other living things. But they are.) This lead to a culture of mediocrity where the light shine not on those who are brilliant but on those who fuck things up the least.

[Tsuru]

I'm sure you would have done a better job.

[Coligny]

You can't answer my question about why the story is "bullshit," as you called it, because you don't know enough. You need to stop blowing this nonsense out of your butt.

See this post:
http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showpost.php?p=284385&postcount=23

But seeing how you are happy to see it's a pilot error and how my grief is in the writing of the article which is in my interpretation trying to separate as much the pilot incompetence from the consequence of the event I don't know how we could reach any kind of concensus since we now appears to be arguing with the same conclusions.

Since you get a hard on from my first post, let me restate it for you:

What they wrote:
"The unintended maneuver was caused when the co-pilot, in trying to unlock the cockpit door for the captain who was returning from a rest room in the cabin, mistook the rudder trim knob for the cockpit door lock switch nearby."
What happened:
"Control of the plane was lost following a basic pilot error"

So yes for me there is a huge amount of journalistic bullshit.

I'm glad to hear it sounds like a pilot error.

I can go back again... and re-explain the pattern... let's make it shorter:

1-fuck up: pilot do a barrel roll, or plant go to swim.

2-blame is put: Baaaad switch, bad tsunami.

2b while real blame is: pilot can't tell his left from his right, plant was shoddily build and damaged by a previous event.

2c-The blame was shifted to benefit most:
Pilot saved the plane. It's all fault of the confusing switch. (see also "gun don't kill people" reasonning i/e don't blame machine for operator errors.)
Since the tsunami killed the plant, act of god, not our fault, we no pay.

3-Report things in an untimely fashion:
-last month... our bad...
-Tepco blackout admitting thing only when they become big enough to be spotted from the moon.

[Coligny]

I'm sure you would have done a better job.

If you mean "in redressing the plane" between my pathetic night vision and the vertigos these days i'm not even sure to have been able to take off straight.

Now if you mean, "not pushing the wrong button" hell no... I know my limits all too well and I'm as anal retentive / check list for everything monkey as you could be -for the topic I care at least, everything done is logged, everything that have to be done is on a check list . (comforted by the -mostly painfull- experience and lessons I get while handling topic I don't exactly care aboot)

(good reading on the topic)

[Tsuru]

Do you have an account for the airliners.net forums? You could have a field day arguing about this stuff and people will thank you for it.

When I come across any significant news in the aviation sector I almost automatically go and lurk on these forums for a bit just to see people's heads explode. Particularly if it involves Boeing or another American company in a negative way or Airbus in a positive way.