Building permits and the usual WTF China

[matsuki]

So the vid is China but as anyone who's been in Japan for awhile has wondered, "WTF is up with some of the dangerous shit here?" as well. Last guy I know who build a home (this year) totally ignored the codes and laws and when he finally was approached regarding them, there was no penalty or inspection, he just had to file some paperwork

[Russell]

When I was in China I saw concrete buildings of less than 20 years old that were in a terrible state. Concrete was just crumbling and falling off.

Regulations there are much worse than in Japan, methinks.

[GomiGirl]

Dollars to doughnuts, there will be more than a few major building collapses in China over the next few years. Similar to that department store in South Korea.

[Coligny]

Check sankakucomplex... Chines barely finished bridges, buildings and train have a strong traditions of crumpling at random...

[matsuki]

When I was in China I saw concrete buildings of less than 20 years old that were in a terrible state. Concrete was just crumbling and falling off.

Regulations there are much worse than in Japan, methinks.

Yeah, I don't think anyone that's not Chinese is going to argue China has build quality going for it. Chinese concrete is probably made of sand, dead babies, and discarded chopsticks...

...but what I was mainly getting at was the dangerous designs we so often see here. Sure the building is made with the latest and greatest materials and the doors open outwards...but in the case of an emergency, people are going to get hurt by all kinds of shit in the building, each other, and in the case of something like a fire, they'll be lucky to escape out of that small single entrance. (not to mention the blocked sprinkler systems and emergency exits....but that's another issue)

[matsuki]

Dollars to doughnuts, there will be more than a few major building collapses in China over the next few years. Similar to that department store in South Korea.

Lee Joon was charged with criminal negligence and received a prison sentence of 10.5 years. However, Joon's sentence was reduced to seven years on appeal in April 1996. Joon died of health complications on October 4, 2003, a few days after being discharged, relating to heart failure, high blood pressure and diabetes.
His son, Lee Han-Sang, the store's president, who is now working for religious causes in Mongolia, faced seven years for accidental homicide and corruption. City officials Lee Chung-Woo and Hwang Chol-Min, in charge of overseeing the construction of the building, were also found to have been bribed into concealing the illegal changes and poor construction. As a result, the participating officials, including a former chief administrator of the Seocho-gu district, were also jailed. Other parties sentenced included a number of Sampoong Department Store executives and the company responsible for completing the building.
The settlement involved 3,293 cases, totaling 375.8 billion Won (close to $350 million USD). The former Chaebol Lee family was stripped of all of their possessions and assets to cover the costs and as result Sampoong Group was disbanded.

Even if the main guy died, holding him and all those public officials accountable instead of gaman/shoganai-ing the incident away is pretty awesome.

[Russell]

Even if the main guy died, holding him and all those public officials accountable instead of gaman/shoganai-ing the incident away is pretty awesome.

I was actually thinking the same.

And then I started looking for a nuclear smiley (but couldn't find it)...

[Ol Dirty Gaijin]

When I was in China I saw concrete buildings of less than 20 years old that were in a terrible state. Concrete was just crumbling and falling off.

You must have been in the better areas. I've seen buildings 5 years old that barely held their tiles. Always check the gaps in the cornice.

[yanpa]

...but what I was mainly getting at was the dangerous designs we so often see here. Sure the building is made with the latest and greatest materials

Yeah, it's great single pane of glass are finally being used in place of paper. I've heard rumours of something called "double glazing" and "insulation" in the building materials research pipeline, but I guess those are another few decades down the road.

[Coligny]

Hey, at least they got indoor plumbing... Almost everywhere...

[6810]

...but what I was mainly getting at was the dangerous designs we so often see here. Sure the building is made with the latest and greatest materials and the doors open outwards...but in the case of an emergency, people are going to get hurt by all kinds of shit in the building, each other, and in the case of something like a fire, they'll be lucky to escape out of that small single entrance. (not to mention the blocked sprinkler systems and emergency exits....but that's another issue)

Erm, just to step outside the usual J-bashing so popular here... doesn't the above apply to anywhere there is a reasonably high population density?

As for the old dubble gleize and insoolayshun jig that so many around here dance... says more about your socio economic status than it does about Japanese buildings...

ストップ！ ザ serial amateur anthrpological, sociological extrapolations/interpolations...

[Coligny]

Ah ah... Look at that little bitch... Never went to Paris or any other first world city it seems...

As for the soc-eco..,

Yea, but... No... Don't even go there... Money don't buy common sense anyway...

[matsuki]

...but what I was mainly getting at was the dangerous designs we so often see here. Sure the building is made with the latest and greatest materials and the doors open outwards...but in the case of an emergency, people are going to get hurt by all kinds of shit in the building, each other, and in the case of something like a fire, they'll be lucky to escape out of that small single entrance. (not to mention the blocked sprinkler systems and emergency exits....but that's another issue)

Erm, just to step outside the usual J-bashing so popular here... doesn't the above apply to anywhere there is a reasonably high population density?

Nope...and considering how often buildings are being rebuilt here, even if that were an excuse, it wouldn't hold any water.

As for the old dubble gleize and insoolayshun jig that so many around here dance... says more about your socio economic status than it does about Japanese buildings...

Not when many of the common "ECO" building materials aren't even available here. I'm having to import ICF by the pallet. In a cuntry with all this concrete and the use of foam, it's insane they don't have ICF here.

Another example is my new pad in the bumpkinside being "reformed" a few years ago with some crazy amount of money being spent on it. It has double windows and doors...I guess you can call them double paned but they are literally two sets of windows and doors in each frame completely with two sets of locks. It's like a mini puzzle to open each one up. WTF is that??

ストップ！ ザ serial amateur anthrpological, sociological extrapolations/interpolations...

Are you really going to argue that most Japanese falsely believe they are being efficient and have the best shit because it says so and has an "ECO" sticker on it?

[Russell]

Choko, with all respect, but my house was built 15 years ago, and all its windows are double-pane of the kind usual in western countries. At the time it was built that may have been rare, but nowadays I believe many new houses have double-pane windows.

[matsuki]

Choko, with all respect, but my house was built 15 years ago, and all its windows are double-pane of the kind usual in western countries. At the time it was built that may have been rare, but nowadays I believe many new houses have double-pane windows.

Yeah, they're more available here now. (though I think most of the ones in western countries have already moved on to direction glazing and using argon gas to fill the void between the panes) Dare I ask how much those set you back at that time? Anyhow, my main point is the majority of builders here are waaaay slow at adopting actual "ECO" stuff like that. Sometimes it's just retarded mindset, sometimes it's economics. If I was an AC manufacturer here, I'd sure love to sell the populace 3, 4, 5 seperate and small AC units that each cost as much, if not more, than a single central AC setup. It's easy to convince them central heating/cooling is wasteful and bad when that have no idea how efficient it can be with proper insulation and HVAC systems. Even shit like recirculating hot water systems, geothermal heating/cooling, seem to be virtually unheard of.

[Russell]

Choko, with all respect, but my house was built 15 years ago, and all its windows are double-pane of the kind usual in western countries. At the time it was built that may have been rare, but nowadays I believe many new houses have double-pane windows.

Yeah, they're more available here now. (though I think most of the ones in western countries have already moved on to direction glazing and using argon gas to fill the void between the panes) Dare I ask how much those set you back at that time? Anyhow, my main point is the majority of builders here are waaaay slow at adopting actual "ECO" stuff like that. Sometimes it's just retarded mindset, sometimes it's economics. If I was an AC manufacturer here, I'd sure love to sell the populace 3, 4, 5 seperate and small AC units that each cost as much, if not more, than a single central AC setup. It's easy to convince them central heating/cooling is wasteful and bad when that have no idea how efficient it can be with proper insulation and HVAC systems. Even shit like recirculating hot water systems, geothermal heating/cooling, seem to be virtually unheard of.

I bought the house second-hand a few years back, so I don't know how much it cost. Probably not so cheap, though the price I paid for the house was pretty good.

I don't have central cooling or central heating. Isolation is pretty good, though the roof isolation may need improvement. If I install solar panels in the future, electricity use will likely be a non-issue.

Central air conditioning has the disadvantage that all air circulates in your house for too long, causing air quality to worsen. Nowadays many new houses come with such a system, BTW.

[yanpa]

Choko, with all respect, but my house was built 15 years ago, and all its windows are double-pane of the kind usual in western countries. At the time it was built that may have been rare, but nowadays I believe many new houses have double-pane windows.

While house-hunting last year, it was almost amusing to see that double-glazing was being touted as a feature rather than something standard, and that with some houses advertised as having double-glazing, the double glazing only applied to some windows.

And I've yet to see an apartment with my own eyes which does have double glazing.

Yeah, they're more available here now. (though I think most of the ones in western countries have already moved on to direction glazing and using argon gas to fill the void between the panes).

Methinks the panes in Chez Yanpa sandwich a layer of argon . (The house was timewarped here from the 22nd century).

[Coligny]

My windows and some walls don't even stop the rain

[matsuki]

I bought the house second-hand a few years back, so I don't know how much it cost. Probably not so cheap, though the price I paid for the house was pretty good.

Are they a Japanese brand? I'm thinking they were likely imported...

Central air conditioning has the disadvantage that all air circulates in your house for too long, causing air quality to worsen. Nowadays many new houses come with such a system, BTW.

That's what the HVAC system is for. The heated/cooled stale air gets expelled but is also used to heat/cool the incoming fresh air.

Same concept is being used for hot water and such. (think about taking a shower...all the heated water goes down the drain...now think how much less gas/elec it would take to heat the water incoming to the water heater if your already heated waste water is used to preheat the it) Then think about how much money this would save placed like hotels, or even better, onsens. (I will give Japan credit for the use of solar water heaters, I see those things everywhere and those are one of the quickest ROI upgrades anyone can add to their home)

[matsuki]

While house-hunting last year, it was almost amusing to see that double-glazing was being touted as a feature rather than something standard, and that with some houses advertised as having double-glazing, the double glazing only applied to some windows.

Shingata new super premium coating!!

:-(

My windows and some walls don't even stop the rain

You should just bury your bunker in styrofoam peanuts, with all that concrete, the temp would never change a degree regardless of season.

[Russell]

I bought the house second-hand a few years back, so I don't know how much it cost. Probably not so cheap, though the price I paid for the house was pretty good.

Are they a Japanese brand? I'm thinking they were likely imported...

Googling on the katakana that is engraved in the glass, I get a web page that is Japanese. Window frames are brand of Sekisui House. Originally they could have been from "National", the Panasonic brand that disappeared.

Central air conditioning has the disadvantage that all air circulates in your house for too long, causing air quality to worsen. Nowadays many new houses come with such a system, BTW.

That's what the HVAC system is for. The heated/cooled stale air gets expelled but is also used to heat/cool the incoming fresh air.

Same concept is being used for hot water and such. (think about taking a shower...all the heated water goes down the drain...now think how much less gas/elec it would take to heat the water incoming to the water heater if your already heated waste water is used to preheat the it) Then think about how much money this would save placed like hotels, or even better, onsens. (I will give Japan credit for the use of solar water heaters, I see those things everywhere and those are one of the quickest ROI upgrades anyone can add to their home)

I have seen those HVAC systems in many model houses. Still the problem is that the air circulates through the whole house. I heard that it is not without problems in the Netherlands.

I hate those systems in hotels, especially when no windows can be opened. If even one moron is smoking in his non-smoking room, you get all the smells circulated to your room.

BTW, do you know of systems that combine eco-cute hot water supplies (heat pump) with solar heating? I am still using gas heating, but want to modernize...

[Mike Oxlong]

Do they insulate the window frames nowadays? IIRC the first double-pane windows made in Japan neglected this small-but-important detail...

[Taro Toporific]

While house-hunting last year, it was almost amusing to see that double-glazing was being touted as a feature rather than something standard, and that with some houses advertised as having double-glazing, the double glazing only applied to some windows.

"Installation" in Kanto is ALWAYS done incorrectly without vapor barriers and is pathetically thin, R-7 or less. Japanese double-pain windows are a joke since they are set in uninsulated aluminum frames without proper weather-stripping.
Here in my neighborhood of Denenchofu* (Tokyo) where the average price of a home is 3-oku, they are building "eco envelope homes"---at EVERY stage of construction is criminal malfeasance/incompetence---nothing "eco" is functional.
Ok, what about the real high-end (and not mere 4 million dollar lower-than-trailer-trash homes of Denenchofu)? The headquarters of Japan's No. 1, über-tech, architectural/engineering/construction firm Shimizu, claims to be a eco-building---Nope, the frames of the argon-filled, electronically variable-tinted, double pane windows are uninsulated, leak drafts and are rusted from condensation. The elevator shafts are not connected to the heat exchanger system (thereby defeating the whole purpose), etc. etc.... I stopped counting counting the VISABLE violations of JAPANESE building code in their newish headquarters after 400.
DOWN WITH OUR OPPRESSORS---THE JAPANESE HOUSING INDUSTRY!

[Coligny]

While house-hunting last year, it was almost amusing to see that double-glazing was being touted as a feature rather than something standard, and that with some houses advertised as having double-glazing, the double glazing only applied to some windows.

"Installation" in Kanto is ALWAYS done incorrectly without vapor barriers and is pathetically thin, R-7 or less. Japanese double-pain windows are a joke since they are set in uninsulated aluminum frames without proper weather-stripping.
Here in my neighborhood of Denenchofu* (Tokyo) where the average price of a home is 3-oku, they are building "eco envelope homes"---at EVERY stage of construction is criminal malfeasance/incompetence---nothing "eco" is functional.
Ok, what about the real high-end (and not mere 4 million dollar lower-than-trailer-trash homes of Denenchofu)? The headquarters of Japan's No. 1, über-tech, architectural/engineering/construction firm Shimizu, claims to be a eco-building---Nope, the frames of the argon-filled, electronically variable-tinted, double pane windows are uninsulated, leak drafts and are rusted from condensation. The elevator shafts are not connected to the heat exchanger system (thereby defeating the whole purpose), etc. etc.... I stopped counting counting the VISABLE violations of JAPANESE building code in their newish headquarters after 400.
DOWN WITH OUR OPPRESSORS---THE JAPANESE HOUSING INDUSTRY!

ALLAH WOOAKBAR !!!!(48)... sorry... Soo sorry...
should not go cold turkey on mah meds like dat...

[matsuki]

Googling on the katakana that is engraved in the glass, I get a web page that is Japanese. Window frames are brand of Sekisui House. Originally they could have been from "National", the Panasonic brand that disappeared.

Pretty interesting and good to see at that much available now (at ass rape prices but hey, at least it's available)

I have seen those HVAC systems in many model houses. Still the problem is that the air circulates through the whole house. I heard that it is not without problems in the Netherlands.

I hate those systems in hotels, especially when no windows can be opened. If even one moron is smoking in his non-smoking room, you get all the smells circulated to your room.

What kinds of problems?

Air exchange between mixed smoking/non-smoking hotel rooms is retarded. I'd hate that as well.

BTW, do you know of systems that combine eco-cute hot water supplies (heat pump) with solar heating? I am still using gas heating, but want to modernize...

You'd just use the solar heater to feed into the eco-cute whereas most are fed into gas or electric heaters. The whole concept being is you're starting out with solar preheated water so the amount of heating (therefore electricity or gas) required to get to your desired temp is significantly reduced.

[matsuki]

While house-hunting last year, it was almost amusing to see that double-glazing was being touted as a feature rather than something standard, and that with some houses advertised as having double-glazing, the double glazing only applied to some windows.

"Installation" in Kanto is ALWAYS done incorrectly without vapor barriers and is pathetically thin, R-7 or less. Japanese double-pain windows are a joke since they are set in uninsulated aluminum frames without proper weather-stripping.
Here in my neighborhood of Denenchofu* (Tokyo) where the average price of a home is 3-oku, they are building "eco envelope homes"---at EVERY stage of construction is criminal malfeasance/incompetence---nothing "eco" is functional.
Ok, what about the real high-end (and not mere 4 million dollar lower-than-trailer-trash homes of Denenchofu)? The headquarters of Japan's No. 1, über-tech, architectural/engineering/construction firm Shimizu, claims to be a eco-building---Nope, the frames of the argon-filled, electronically variable-tinted, double pane windows are uninsulated, leak drafts and are rusted from condensation. The elevator shafts are not connected to the heat exchanger system (thereby defeating the whole purpose), etc. etc.... I stopped counting counting the VISABLE violations of JAPANESE building code in their newish headquarters after 400.
DOWN WITH OUR OPPRESSORS---THE JAPANESE HOUSING INDUSTRY!

Hahahahahahaha, lost in translation or simply a scam?

[Russell]

Do they insulate the window frames nowadays? IIRC the first double-pane windows made in Japan neglected this small-but-important detail...

Good point. If they aren't insulated they work as heat bridges. Some house builders seem to offer insulated window frames nowadays. I recall having seen it at a model house of Sekisui Home. Problem is that they replace aluminium with plastic, and that is probably not as resistant against the tooth of time.

My window frames are made of aluminium and probably not insulated. In winter the window frames are cold. Thinking about making plexiglass removable windows to put in front of them for the winter. I don't need to open them then anyway.

Insulation of my home is not so bad compared with the koumuin shukusha apartment I lived in before.

But I very much understand Taro's opinion.

BTW, aren't the houses in Hokkaido better insulated?

[Russell]

I have seen those HVAC systems in many model houses. Still the problem is that the air circulates through the whole house. I heard that it is not without problems in the Netherlands.

What kinds of problems?

Air quality. In theory these systems should work fine, but in practice people seem to have this problem. But maybe it is just Dutch building standards.

You'd just use the solar heater to feed into the eco-cute whereas most are fed into gas or electric heaters. The whole concept being is you're starting out with solar preheated water so the amount of heating (therefore electricity or gas) required to get to your desired temp is significantly reduced.

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind when I go shopping.

[Samurai_Jerk]

As for the old dubble gleize and insoolayshun jig that so many around here dance... says more about your socio economic status than it does about Japanese buildings...

Meaning we come from decent socioeconomic backgrounds, are used to well-built housing, and therefore understand just how shitty the substandard standard in Japan is? Sorry you grew up in a favela, dude. Must have been rough.

[matsuki]

While house-hunting last year, it was almost amusing to see that double-glazing was being touted as a feature rather than something standard, and that with some houses advertised as having double-glazing, the double glazing only applied to some windows.

"Installation" in Kanto is ALWAYS done incorrectly without vapor barriers and is pathetically thin, R-7 or less. Japanese double-pain windows are a joke since they are set in uninsulated aluminum frames without proper weather-stripping.
Here in my neighborhood of Denenchofu* (Tokyo) where the average price of a home is 3-oku, they are building "eco envelope homes"---at EVERY stage of construction is criminal malfeasance/incompetence---nothing "eco" is functional.
Ok, what about the real high-end (and not mere 4 million dollar lower-than-trailer-trash homes of Denenchofu)? The headquarters of Japan's No. 1, über-tech, architectural/engineering/construction firm Shimizu, claims to be a eco-building---Nope, the frames of the argon-filled, electronically variable-tinted, double pane windows are uninsulated, leak drafts and are rusted from condensation. The elevator shafts are not connected to the heat exchanger system (thereby defeating the whole purpose), etc. etc.... I stopped counting counting the VISABLE violations of JAPANESE building code in their newish headquarters after 400.
DOWN WITH OUR OPPRESSORS---THE JAPANESE HOUSING INDUSTRY!

The more I think about it, it's pretty typical Japanese bullshit status. They can list all this shit as being installed and look amazing in print, plenty of praise and talk of ECO....but when it comes to actual performance, nothing is functional.